170 réponses à ce sujet

[shit's fucked cunts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

...it's like asking for every movie or book to have be happy because you don't want to be upset.

Except it isn't. Films or books have static, unchangable plots. This is a game series with choices being touted as one of it's main features. Some players want the culmination of a different combination of those choices to give them different consequences to the ones you want, and you're actively opposing that. Very prententiously, I'll add.

Just sacrifice the Crestwood wounded and pretend you had no other choice. In fact, you can even put on your black trenchcoat, comb your fringe over your eyes and repeat it into your mirror in your best forlorn hero voice, Taxi Driver style. "I had no choice!"

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

Nothing is ever ironclad like a contract. Doesn't matter. Stories make promises. And to be good writing, they have an obligation to fulfill those promises. And more important, audiences are justified to be upset when those promises are broken.

Sorry, but unless that promise was explicitly stated or written, it is not a promise at all. Merely inflection on the other persons part that could, or could not, be accurate.

So since it is on the audience for what they expect from the game, it is their fault for being upset over it, and in some ways, are not justified for it, in so far as the freedoms of your writen body of laws or constitutions grant you rights to be upset.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 janvier 2014 - 06:07 .

[wolfhowwl]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Stories make promises. And to be good writing, they have an obligation to fulfill those promises.

And what promises did Dragon Age: Origins make to the audience, pray tell? 

That it would be the new ****.

[David7204]

Allow me to go and make this point.

I like heroism for one simple, clean and elegant reason. Because its beautiful. Because it affirms great meaning and truth. Simple as that.

'Power fantasies' never factor into it. In fact, I'm made all the uglier in comparison by the existence of such fiction and characters. It seems to me that someone looking to fiction as a refuge would despise heroism. That they would delight in incompetent protagonists as 'proof' their own weakness is an inevitability and an element of great meaning.

Modifié par David7204, 13 janvier 2014 - 06:10 .

[Zu Long]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
If I can't win, why play the game? I'd hate to live through life needing to be kicked in the gut for entertainment. It sounds stressful.

You will always still win in the end. Shepard ALWAYS stops Saren.

But Virmire is made much more meaningful because Shepard doesn't have a third choice. He can't save Ashley and Kaiden, you have to make a hard sacrifice.

Which was, when you think about it, kind of stupid. You had two other party members who were, what, too busy reading? My reaction wasn't to agonize, it was to not care and flip a coin. Damned whatever I do, it's been mandated, so why get worked up. Flip a coin, pick the one you liked, whatever. But agonize? Nah.

The suicide mission, on the other hand, I cared DEEPLY about, because I knew it was possible to win. I just had to make the right calls. Following the clues Bioware gives and making the right choices was incredibly rewarding.

[Hellion Rex]

David7204 wrote...

Allow me to go and make this point.

I like heroism for one simple, clean and elegant reason. Because its beautiful. Because it affirms great meaning and truth. Simple as that.

'Power fantasies' never factor into it. In fact, I'm made all the uglier in comparison by the existence of such fiction. It seems to me that someone looking to fiction as a refuge would despise heroism.

And why can we not like both power fantasies and what you subjectively dub as "heroism"?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Heroism isn't about winning or being rewarded or awarded for being a hero. It's about doing the right thing, even when you suffer because of it, because it was the right thing to do.

Heroism, or any course of action or philosophy, always being rewarded positively is a power fantasy, period. You want to always get positive results for doing something you want to do, without regard for if it makes sense or not. It would be the same as people who want to be praised and worshiped in game for killing people indiscriminately and acting like a selfish ******.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 janvier 2014 - 06:12 .

[dreamgazer]

wolfhowwl wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Stories make promises. And to be good writing, they have an obligation to fulfill those promises.

And what promises did Dragon Age: Origins make to the audience, pray tell? 

That it would be the new ****.

Holy hell.  I actually didn't know this trailer existed.  THAT is elegant and beautiful!

[shit's fucked cunts]

Better than 30 Seconds To Mars.

[Laughing_Man]

eluvianix wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Allow me to go and make this point.

I like heroism for one simple, clean and elegant reason. Because its beautiful. Because it affirms great meaning and truth. Simple as that.

'Power fantasies' never factor into it. In fact, I'm made all the uglier in comparison by the existence of such fiction. It seems to me that someone looking to fiction as a refuge would despise heroism.

And why can we not like both power fantasies and what you subjectively dub as "heroism"?

Phrases like "power fantasy" are nothing more than a joke anyway.
Every type of role playing or indeed inventive use of imagination can be considered as such, but that's certainly not going to stop me from enjoying it.

If some people feel the need to keep their fragile egos intact by deriding something that is nothing more than harmless fun in order to feel superior somehow, well, that says alot about them, nothing of it good.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Did all old trailers have really unfitting rock music back in the day?

[spirosz]

And a hero in one light can be seen as a villain in another light. Perspective.

[AresKeith]

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

My thoughts on this is that it should correspond to the difficulty you've set. Easy should be, well, easy, normal you can fail if you mess up, hard is pretty challenging and nightmare nearly impossible. The player themselves sets the difficulty of the "third way." If you want it to be nearly impossible to do everything, ramp up the difficulty.

Only problem is that only applies to combat

What we're talking about is choices, and yes there should be times where we can't save everyone just as there should be times where we can save everyone. But you should be willing to do extra work and bit more challenge in order to do it

[David7204]

What's heroic and what leads to the best outcomes are one and the same, Brotarian. So saying "taking heroic actions even when they make no sense" is itself completely absurd and nonsensical. If it makes no sense, it's not heroic in the first place.

However, your general perception is correct to some degree. There is a price for heroism. The path of the hero is very often the path of giving up what's obvious and overvalued for what's subtle and undervalued. So yes, it's no free ride, in that sense. I hardly expect to play the game and have every character I meet bow down.

Modifié par David7204, 13 janvier 2014 - 06:22 .

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

What's heroic and what leads to the best outcomes are one and the same, Brotarian.

Stop with this pathetic nonsense. You dismiss any writing that doesn't fit this criteria, everything fits when you're looking at writing with a narrow mind.

Zu Long wrote...

My reaction wasn't to agonize, it was to not care and flip a coin. Damned whatever I do, it's been mandated, so why get worked up. Flip a coin, pick the one you liked, whatever. But agonize? Nah.

Then that's your problem, isn't it?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 janvier 2014 - 06:25 .

[David7204]

'Pathetic nonsense'? This is simple reasoning. Do you imagine principles exists as decorations for our brains? Pretty and talked about and meaningless? Perhaps for you.

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

I hardly expect to play the game and have every character I meet bow down.

Ah.  Well Mass Effect had plenty of this.  Only two I can think of right now that didn't were Javik and Jack.  

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

What's heroic and what leads to the best outcomes are one and the same, Brotarian. So saying "taking heroic actions even when they make no sense" is itself completely absurd and nonsensical. If it makes no sense, it's not heroic in the first place.

However, your general perception is correct to some degree. There is a price for heroism. The path of the hero is very often the path of giving up what's obvious and overvalued for what's subtle and undervalued. So yes, it's no free ride, in that sense. I hardly expect to play the game and have every character I meet bow down.

What exactly do you think heorism means, david? I know you say it's about doing what's subtle and undervalued, but that's not what heroism is all about. It is doing what is right, taking a stand, and putting yourself at risk to achieve what you want.

A heroic person would be willing to sacrifice their life to save someone else, because it is the right tihng to do to protect someone. Say you were running from a large approaching horde, and one of your companions ends up taking an arrow to the leg and ends up slowing you guys down. Now, what would make sense, the logical thing to do, would be to leave him. You are in a bind, and he is dead weight slowing you down on this time sensitive errand. A heroic person however wouldn't compromise their values of what is right and would go back to rescue them, even if it means getting killed. In some cases, that person will be killed, in other times, they won't. The sense I get from you is that you want him to go back and survive every time, which I find a power fantasy of always getting your way.

And your above statement I find to be a completely ass backwards way of thinking. You seem to confuse doing what gets you the best option with being heroic, which isn't the truth at all. In some cases, you get a much better outcome from not being a hero, from just being out for yourself. So does that make those people heros by virtue of getting the best result?

Heroism =/= result. Herosim = Action.

[Zu Long]

Dave of Canada wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What's heroic and what leads to the best outcomes are one and the same, Brotarian.

Stop with this nonsense. You dismiss any writing that doesn't fit this criteria, everything fits when you're looking at writing with a narrow mind.

Zu Long wrote...

My reaction wasn't to agonize, it was to not care and flip a coin. Damned whatever I do, it's been mandated, so why get worked up. Flip a coin, pick the one you liked, whatever. But agonize? Nah.

Then that's your problem, isn't it?

I don't see how reacting negatively to heads I win, tails you lose scenarios is a problem. That seems pretty normal. It's probably more of a problem when you hate it that other people enjoy being happy. That sounds kind of like being a sociopath to me.

[Dave of Canada]

Zu Long wrote...

I don't see how reacting negatively to heads I win, tails you lose scenarios is a problem.

Because it isn't a heads or tails, it's an A or B. You choose which choice you live with and accept the consequences.

You can't "lose" or "win", you only "lose" when you can't have your cake and eat it too.

It's probably more of a problem when you hate it that other people enjoy being happy.

I'm happy when the story doesn't ever pat me on the back and actually appeals to every side of a coin, forcing me to think about what I'd like to do while struggling with emotions.

It's my happiness vs your happiness, don't pretend we're not both self-absorbed in this discussion.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 janvier 2014 - 06:35 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I wonder what the mathematic equations go on in david's head to equal herosim. Is it 2X + Outcome^3 - 42 = hero?

[Genshie]

David7204 wrote...

This is a game. Not an exam, and not work. Players shouldn't be denied a good story because they aren't the best at video games.

As for your other comment, no, that's not what I'm playing an RPG for at all. Nor are many other people, I suspect.

Demon Souls says, "HELLO! ":devil:

[David7204]

There is no dichotomy. What's practical and what's heroic are one and the same.

Now, that can be a difficult truth to understand. There are many illusions surrounding it. Very often the 'unheroic' choice leads to a far more obvious more obvious reward, as I touched on. Immediate results. Money. Material goods. Whereas the gain in heroic examples, for example, not compromising your principles is generally subtle and difficult to quantify. And thus easy to neglect and ignore. But no less real.

Thankfully, that's what stories are for. To illustrate hidden truths.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

There is no dichotomy. What's practical and what's heroic are one and the same.

Actually heorism, sticking to morals and values, and practicallity, doing what is best for results, are often in a dichotomic relationship. It's why the theme is such a popular one to explore and showcase in fiction.

David7204 wrote...

Now, that can be a difficult truth to understand.

Nothing it true. Everything is permitted.

David7204 wrote...

There are many illusions surrounding it. Very often the 'unheroic' choice leads to a far more obvious more obvious reward, as I touched on. Immediate results. Money. Material goods. Whereas the gain in heroic examples, for example, not compromising your principles is generally subtle and difficult to quantify. And thus easy to neglect and ignore. But no less real.

Uh-huh. So do you have an example of a reward for sticking to your values in the face of a 99% garunteed death? And what results benefit you when you die. I mean, after all, my example gave a scenario that I assume you are working with. If not, your hypothetical statement doesn't really mean much of anything, since there is no framework for which it can be assessed and understood.

Also, way to use example twice in the same sentence section.

David7204 wrote...

Thankfully, that's what stories are for. To illustrate hidden truths.

Or to just tell stories. They tend to be really good at that.