65 réponses à ce sujet

[Khavos]

Namely, how do they not rule the galaxy?  It's basically space magic, right?  Tech is cool and all, but it seems like it wouldn't stand up to the ability to manipulate mass effect fields and do the crazy stuff biotics do.  

In a similar vein, I'm curious why the Alliance even bothers with "conventional" special operations units.  Human biotics are supposedly quite rare, but you encounter more than a few throughout the trilogy.  Heck, Kaidan starts as a detachment commander aboard the Normandy - hardly the sort of posting you'd expect to find biotics in if they were such a rare and valued asset.  Non-biotic soldiers are fine and dandy, but why use them when you can throw a platoon of Vanguards at something?   

Modifié par Khavos, 24 janvier 2014 - 05:53 .

[TuringPoint]

How many biotic-wielding human mercenaries were there?

There could easily be thousands of human biotics but still they would be a rare asset. Put them all in one place and it would seem like there were a lot of them, but out of perhaps hundreds of thousands of soldiers they're still rare. Weapons are still the main power in the mass effect universe. Put enough people with guns against a biotic and they will die.

Also, biotics require implants to be effective, which is tech. It's not totally inherent even for the best biotic. For every Kaidan there might be a dozen biotic-capable soldiers with no implants, or who are capable of little more than lifting small rocks.

Anyway, these arguments are just for fun.

[shodiswe]

The counter to a plutoon of biotic Vanguards would be giant walking bombs.
Vanguards hit them, the bomb goes boom and the Vanguard dies.

Or magnetichands synckills

Modifié par shodiswe, 13 janvier 2014 - 07:15 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Rarity, limited endurance (not seen in the game, but in lore only exceptionally powerful superbiotics can use more than one or two throws before having to take a nap), limited range (Can a biotic take out a target at 2.5km? Snipers can)

[Arcian]

Biotics are much less powerful in the lore than they are in the game. They're also very rare, at least among humans.

[RangerSG]

Khavos wrote...

Namely, how do they not rule the galaxy?  It's basically space magic, right?  Tech is cool and all, but it seems like it wouldn't stand up to the ability to manipulate mass effect fields and do the crazy stuff biotics do.  

In a similar vein, I'm curious why the Alliance even bothers with "conventional" special operations units.  Human biotics are supposedly quite rare, but you encounter more than a few throughout the trilogy.  Heck, Kaidan starts as a detachment commander aboard the Normandy - hardly the sort of posting you'd expect to find biotics in if they were such a rare and valued asset.  Non-biotic soldiers are fine and dandy, but why use them when you can throw a platoon of Vanguards at something?   

Well, many would say the Asari could (or even do, in a polite sort of way). Human biotics 'are' rare. They all have to register, which makes military or spec-ops careers appealing to them (as Kaiden says to you right out of the box in ME1). And a sniper can pop one before the biotic has time to raise the barrier. So expending them on front line combat is on the Bad Idea List.

Unless you're a race where everyone has it and your world swims in Eezo: Oh yeah, Asaris again. But even for them, front line, traditional combat isn't something they do well.

[Khavos]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Rarity, limited endurance (not seen in the game, but in lore only exceptionally powerful superbiotics can use more than one or two throws before having to take a nap), limited range (Can a biotic take out a target at 2.5km? Snipers can)

I may be missing something, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you reference lore not seen in the game.  

[Coming0fShadows]

Wrex said something to Liara about how he didnt understand why the Asari dont take over the galaxy, being a race of all powerful biotics. She said roughly "Obviously we dont want to". So its kind of implied that they could.

[RangerSG]

Khavos wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Rarity, limited endurance (not seen in the game, but in lore only exceptionally powerful superbiotics can use more than one or two throws before having to take a nap), limited range (Can a biotic take out a target at 2.5km? Snipers can)

I may be missing something, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you reference lore not seen in the game.  

I'm not even sure this is "not seen in game" stuff. We DO see biotics getting tired when they try to hold barriers for lengthy stretches. Examples:

1) Whoever holds your barrier in the Long Walk. Right down to potential failure due to exhaustion.

2) The Asari holding the barrier in Thessia.


And that's aside from the very real "Geek the mage first" mindset anyone seeing a biotic will have in combat, including snipers are ultra-long range. So it's clear biotics is impressive, but not all-powerful. 

But yes, it's hinted more than once the Asari could rule the galaxy if they wished to. And not just for the every-Asari-a-biotic angle. 

[cap and gown]

What we don't see in the game is either a biotic Shepard or his/her biotic squadmates getting tired. Shepard can Throw/Singularity/Charge an unlimited number of times. So can Miranda or Liara or Javik. So the gameplay does not match the lore.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

cap and gown wrote...

What we don't see in the game is either a biotic Shepard or his/her biotic squadmates getting tired. Shepard can Throw/Singularity/Charge an unlimited number of times. So can Miranda or Liara or Javik. So the gameplay does not match the lore.

Well,  maybe it's the cooldown...

As a trained and probably powerful Biotic, I would highly doubt Shepard would get tired in the middle of the battlefield.

That's just my Opinion

[Iakus]

Khavos wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Rarity, limited endurance (not seen in the game, but in lore only exceptionally powerful superbiotics can use more than one or two throws before having to take a nap), limited range (Can a biotic take out a target at 2.5km? Snipers can)

I may be missing something, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you reference lore not seen in the game.  

Codex entry on biotics:

Biotics: Life as a Biotic 
Biotics possess extraordinary abilities, but they must live with minor inconveniences. The most obvious issue is getting adequate nutrition. Creating biotic mass effects takes such a toll on metabolism that active biotics develop ravenous appetites. The standard Alliance combat ration for a soldier is 3000 calories per day; biotics are given 4500, as well as a canteen of potent energy drink for quick refreshment after hard combat.
Another issue is electric charge. Electricity accumulated in starship drive cores must be discharged, and so must the electricity in a biotic user. Biotics are prone to small static discharges when they touch metal.
Unfortunately, human biotics also face suspicion and persecution, beginning with the popular misconception that they can read and control minds. Biotics symbolize the dehumanization of mankind to people philosophically or religiously opposed to gene modification and cybernetics. Militaries are the only organizations that always welcome biotics, offering them huge recruitment incentives.

We never eally see these kinds of things in-game.  In fact, more and more biotics are becoming just another kind of magic.  Makes you wonder if in the next game biotic characters will wear robes and a pointy hat

[Han Shot First]

Biotics aren't Jedi or Sith. They can quite easy be gunned down by some random nobody. They've got some neat abilities but they are far from being invulnerable.

Also outside of Asari space, there aren't many of them.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 janvier 2014 - 05:50 .

[shodiswe]

Some biotics can be fairly strong, most are likely weak or got terrible condition.
Some people are maraton runners while others are coach potatoes.
If you look at me3 multiplayer you will see that tech skills and combos can be as powerful.
Snipers can also be very powerful as log as they arnt forced into close combat.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Han Shot First wrote...

Biotics aren't Jedi or Sith. They can quite easy be gunned down by some random nobody. They've got some neat abilities but they are far from being invulnerable.

Also outside of Asari space, there aren't many of them.

If a Jedi is unprotected/uncareful/not paying attention, he can be easily die

[SwobyJ]

To OP, here's my reasoning:

1) Biotics probably DID rule their areas of the galaxy. However, biotics doesn't exactly lend itself to technological advancements by itself. Advanced forms of it (seemingly stuff like enthrallment seen by Leviathan and domination seen by Ardat-Yakshi, etc) does show quite a lot of power, but I'd imagine it'd also lead to a much slower advancement compared to purely technological/synthetic advancement.
Basically, it'd lead biotics to rule a planet, but good luck controlling a system or galaxy with that mentality. You'd need to push foward tech advancement at a fast rate too.


2) Tech manipulates mass effect fields too. Heck, in itself, it does so at a larger scale that pretty much any biotic could. The tech powers we use even do special manipulations of the mass effect (it just looks different than how organic biotic users do it) that would require masters of manipulation to do otherwise.
Think of them more as two sides of the same coin. The innate biotic users may be impressive, but their effects are actually less impressive when we put it into a more advanced context. At that point, it becomes about tech powers that are programmed to do specific things that innate biotic users might never be able to do.

Consider it brute force vs manipulation. That sort of thing. Yeah, someone could toss an enemy, but if that enemy has ways to block those biotic fields, that biotic user is relatively impotent.


3) When it comes to enemy units, you need to understand that Shepard is put into SPECIFIC situations that fit the combat system. By and large, humans are NOT biotics, and it is considered a specialty/luxury/abnormality still, even as more humans are growing into it. Mercs? Honestly, we don't fight that many. Cerberus? They're a special group.

4)Using biotics uses a ton of energy off screen. It takes dedicated training in order to use a lot of it without your metabolism to slow you down significantly afterward. Sure, you can toss a bunch of enemies around, but then you'll be so out of energy that even a handful of others could easily take you down.



Biotics have the *potential* to be the most powerful concept of any person to have in the Mass Effect Universe. But this is also why it is 'lore nerfed' in several ways, and only niche concepts like the Leviathans and Asari have them, instead of just some larger species that campaigns as some super-soldier army.


Oh wait, we seem to have that too. The Prothans seem to be adept at biotics, and that probably helped them

I think the asari have the potential to rule the galaxy, but they prefer to be more the benevolent soft-controllers of it instead. There could be a lore reason written for this in a future game, for all we know.

~~~

To non-biotics, especially in humanity (but also in turian and other societies to a degree), biotic users are almost another species, or evolution (for better or worse) of organic existence. Whoever uses it, does in fact have a superstition around them, that isn't very explored in the trilogy.

I'd imagine that a powerful and dedicated biotic could in fact rule a planet or more through their strength alone, but due to systems like the Citadel and Reapings, that doesn't happen. The closest we know is the Prothian Empire.

Biotics - Weaker regular potential than any other power, but the range of power could be immensely more than anything else
Tech - Higher regular potential than any other power, but the range of power might be capped off within this realm of existence (except for things like maybe the Crucible)
Transexistence - Highest regular potential of any other power (thus the Reapers, and apex philosophies of mixing organic and synthetic), but the range of power may be more stagnant once that point is reached

Main point with this? Yes, a particular biotic could rule the whole damn galaxy, but they would need the circumstances to be ripe for it, and biotics at large do not pose a enough of a threat unless the majority of them formed what amounts to those ME1 biotic cults x1000000 in strength.

[shodiswe]

SwobyJ wrote...

To OP, here's my reasoning:

1) Biotics probably DID rule their areas of the galaxy. However, biotics doesn't exactly lend itself to technological advancements by itself. Advanced forms of it (seemingly stuff like enthrallment seen by Leviathan and domination seen by Ardat-Yakshi, etc) does show quite a lot of power, but I'd imagine it'd also lead to a much slower advancement compared to purely technological/synthetic advancement.
Basically, it'd lead biotics to rule a planet, but good luck controlling a system or galaxy with that mentality. You'd need to push foward tech advancement at a fast rate too.


2) Tech manipulates mass effect fields too. Heck, in itself, it does so at a larger scale that pretty much any biotic could. The tech powers we use even do special manipulations of the mass effect (it just looks different than how organic biotic users do it) that would require masters of manipulation to do otherwise.
Think of them more as two sides of the same coin. The innate biotic users may be impressive, but their effects are actually less impressive when we put it into a more advanced context. At that point, it becomes about tech powers that are programmed to do specific things that innate biotic users might never be able to do.

Consider it brute force vs manipulation. That sort of thing. Yeah, someone could toss an enemy, but if that enemy has ways to block those biotic fields, that biotic user is relatively impotent.


3) When it comes to enemy units, you need to understand that Shepard is put into SPECIFIC situations that fit the combat system. By and large, humans are NOT biotics, and it is considered a specialty/luxury/abnormality still, even as more humans are growing into it. Mercs? Honestly, we don't fight that many. Cerberus? They're a special group.

4)Using biotics uses a ton of energy off screen. It takes dedicated training in order to use a lot of it without your metabolism to slow you down significantly afterward. Sure, you can toss a bunch of enemies around, but then you'll be so out of energy that even a handful of others could easily take you down.



Biotics have the *potential* to be the most powerful concept of any person to have in the Mass Effect Universe. But this is also why it is 'lore nerfed' in several ways, and only niche concepts like the Leviathans and Asari have them, instead of just some larger species that campaigns as some super-soldier army.


Oh wait, we seem to have that too. The Prothans seem to be adept at biotics, and that probably helped them

I think the asari have the potential to rule the galaxy, but they prefer to be more the benevolent soft-controllers of it instead. There could be a lore reason written for this in a future game, for all we know.

~~~

To non-biotics, especially in humanity (but also in turian and other societies to a degree), biotic users are almost another species, or evolution (for better or worse) of organic existence. Whoever uses it, does in fact have a superstition around them, that isn't very explored in the trilogy.

I'd imagine that a powerful and dedicated biotic could in fact rule a planet or more through their strength alone, but due to systems like the Citadel and Reapings, that doesn't happen. The closest we know is the Prothian Empire.

Biotics - Weaker regular potential than any other power, but the range of power could be immensely more than anything else
Tech - Higher regular potential than any other power, but the range of power might be capped off within this realm of existence (except for things like maybe the Crucible)
Transexistence - Highest regular potential of any other power (thus the Reapers, and apex philosophies of mixing organic and synthetic), but the range of power may be more stagnant once that point is reached

Main point with this? Yes, a particular biotic could rule the whole damn galaxy, but they would need the circumstances to be ripe for it, and biotics at large do not pose a enough of a threat unless the majority of them formed what amounts to those ME1 biotic cults x1000000 in strength.

Somehow I dont think asari or ardatyakshi mindcontrol has to do with biotics, least not directly. It's more likely some kind of pheromones and other biological methods to attract and enthrall a partner.

[SwobyJ]

I think it has everything to do with biotics.

And say that to the Domination power I got after Morinth's Loyalty.

[pelojian]

SwobyJ wrote...

I think it has everything to do with biotics.

And say that to the Domination power I got after Morinth's Loyalty.

...which doesnt last very long, even when morinth uses it. it's more like a short control in order to 'feed' off a victim.

as for sheperd and squadmates, shepard's an N7 their training sees them work, tired almost to death in training so it stands to reason that if a N7 on normal raitions can still function on lack of sleep and normal rations after hard work so can a biotic N7 on a biotic level rations.

as for squaddies liara naturally gifted being an asari, javik comes from a race that was powerful and dominated the galaxy and is an exemplar of his speicies.

as for kaiden he makes no secert that his 'teacher' was a hardarse by human standards before he got his neck broke by kaiden in a biotic duel and he joined the alliance and got good training in addition to the potential he showed at jump zero.

Modifié par pelojian, 21 janvier 2014 - 09:50 .

[RangerSG]

cap and gown wrote...

What we don't see in the game is either a biotic Shepard or his/her biotic squadmates getting tired. Shepard can Throw/Singularity/Charge an unlimited number of times. So can Miranda or Liara or Javik. So the gameplay does not match the lore.

A concentrated burst of usage, with substantial breaks between them (both in cooldown, and between waves), and substantial rest cycles afterward.

You never see Shepard do anything like the instances I noted as a biotic. It's brief, unsustained usages. Even Shepard's barrier needs frequent recharging.

[Han Shot First]

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

What we don't see in the game is either a biotic Shepard or his/her biotic squadmates getting tired. Shepard can Throw/Singularity/Charge an unlimited number of times. So can Miranda or Liara or Javik. So the gameplay does not match the lore.

Well,  maybe it's the cooldown...

As a trained and probably powerful Biotic, I would highly doubt Shepard would get tired in the middle of the battlefield.

That's just my Opinion

According to the lore all biotics eventually get fatigued. They have a limit on how much they can use their abilities, it just isn't reflected in gameplay. Post-Lazarus Shepard may have a higher threshold than most, but he'd still eventually run out of steam.

shodiswe wrote...

Some biotics can be fairly strong, most are likely weak or got terrible condition.
Some people are maraton runners while others are coach potatoes.
If you look at me3 multiplayer you will see that tech skills and combos can be as powerful.
Snipers can also be very powerful as log as they arnt forced into close combat.

In multiplayer gameplay snipers might be vulnerable at close range, but gameplay features and lore aren't always the same thing. Classes need to have strengths and weaknesses for balance irrespective of whether those strengths or weaknesses would exist in the lore, or make much sense in reality.

Realistically a sniper would be no less vulnerable at close range. Before becoming a sniper they'd have gone through the same training as every other Marine or soldier and would be no less skilled in close quarters combat. Obviously its not an ideal situation given their role, but not one they couldn't adequately defend themselves in. Snipers also usually operate in teams and the spotters are often armed with assault rifles, like the Marine at the top of this photo:

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 janvier 2014 - 06:28 .

[SwobyJ]

pelojian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think it has everything to do with biotics.

And say that to the Domination power I got after Morinth's Loyalty.

...which doesnt last very long, even when morinth uses it. it's more like a short control in order to 'feed' off a victim.

as for sheperd and squadmates, shepard's an N7 their training sees them work, tired almost to death in training so it stands to reason that if a N7 on normal raitions can still function on lack of sleep and normal rations after hard work so can a biotic N7 on a biotic level rations.

as for squaddies liara naturally gifted being an asari, javik comes from a race that was powerful and dominated the galaxy and is an exemplar of his speicies.

as for kaiden he makes no secert that his 'teacher' was a hardarse by human standards before he got his neck broke by kaiden in a biotic duel and he joined the alliance and got good training in addition to the potential he showed at jump zero.

I don't consider Domination a power that most biotics in the MEU have reached.

It's a sign of overall evolution even beyond 'biotics'. It's not even biotics in a more typical sense, as it more probably seizes control of another's brain in a much more intricate way than holding their body in place and/or moving it around (Stasis, Singularity).

Think a surgeon's tools instead of a blunt hammer.

Leviathans are seemingly the ultimate old god organics in the MEU. Simply look to their powers.

On the matter of Prothians, yes, they don't seem to have any mind control. At the same time, they seem to be (at least by Javik's deal) adept at mentally connecting to other organics, in a different yet kin way to asari.
Main point being organic evolution = biotic use = mental interfacing/networking/domination.

~~~

Anyway yeah, agreed with the rest. We play special characters that do special things against mostly special enemies! This is a Bioware game, after all .

But yes, in a way I'd love a side-game that has a more 'down to earth' representation of the concepts we're shown. I wouldn't mind seeing more 'normal' biotics get more tired, restrictions to abilities, less super-special, at least at first, so the scale of growth of the characters we meet becomes that much more noticable over time.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 21 janvier 2014 - 08:17 .

[RangerSG]

pelojian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think it has everything to do with biotics.

And say that to the Domination power I got after Morinth's Loyalty.

...which doesnt last very long, even when morinth uses it. it's more like a short control in order to 'feed' off a victim.

as for sheperd and squadmates, shepard's an N7 their training sees them work, tired almost to death in training so it stands to reason that if a N7 on normal raitions can still function on lack of sleep and normal rations after hard work so can a biotic N7 on a biotic level rations.

as for squaddies liara naturally gifted being an asari, javik comes from a race that was powerful and dominated the galaxy and is an exemplar of his speicies.

as for kaiden he makes no secert that his 'teacher' was a hardarse by human standards before he got his neck broke by kaiden in a biotic duel and he joined the alliance and got good training in addition to the potential he showed at jump zero.

To back up your point, even though Shep is probably the 3rd best Biotic in the team in each ME game (2nd best if you spec well and go Adept perhaps), it's said more than once that the PC is an unusual biotic talent. So comparing 'average' biotics to the squad is something like comparing me as a soccer player to Lionel Messi. 

[Han Shot First]

RangerSG wrote...

pelojian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think it has everything to do with biotics.

And say that to the Domination power I got after Morinth's Loyalty.

...which doesnt last very long, even when morinth uses it. it's more like a short control in order to 'feed' off a victim.

as for sheperd and squadmates, shepard's an N7 their training sees them work, tired almost to death in training so it stands to reason that if a N7 on normal raitions can still function on lack of sleep and normal rations after hard work so can a biotic N7 on a biotic level rations.

as for squaddies liara naturally gifted being an asari, javik comes from a race that was powerful and dominated the galaxy and is an exemplar of his speicies.

as for kaiden he makes no secert that his 'teacher' was a hardarse by human standards before he got his neck broke by kaiden in a biotic duel and he joined the alliance and got good training in addition to the potential he showed at jump zero.

To back up your point, even though Shep is probably the 3rd best Biotic in the team in each ME game (2nd best if you spec well and go Adept perhaps), it's said more than once that the PC is an unusual biotic talent. So comparing 'average' biotics to the squad is something like comparing me as a soccer player to Lionel Messi. 

That even applies to your squad to a certain extent. Jack and Samara for example are presented two of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy in ME2. And Liara has mastered singularity, which is canonically the most difficult ability to learn. In one of the Mass Effect books it was stated that only the very top tier of biotics could use their abilities to create a singularity.

Even besides those three its probably a safe bet that every one of the biotic squadmates is supposed to be well above average with their abilities. The majority of biotics are likely weaker.

[SwobyJ]

Yep, tis true.

-Liara is rather strong with biotics, even for an asari. However, with her (I think) only heading into matronhood, she may have a LOT more power in her bones that we haven't even seen. (Think ME1 Benezia, ME2 Samara, and ME3 Aria, and surpassing all that)

-Wrex's biotics are probably not *particularly* powerful, but they are probably damn powerful for a krogan. If he cared to hone them, maybe they'd be more. His whole role as a 'battlemaster' in ME1 was partially due to his biotics.

-Kaidan is at least above average. He's not like in the top tier or anything, but probably above most human biotics (again on average).

-Miranda is likely stronger than Kaidan and most other humans in biotics, but in the larger view, she's probably outstripped by many of other species.

-Jacob is still above average, but likely not by much. He more uses his biotics to augment his other combat capabilities.

-Jack is quite possibly the most powerful human biotic (at least in sheer strength). If not, she's at least in the very top tier. In the larger view, she's still probably pretty powerful.

-Samara is a matron asari whose powers are more like a strong matriarch, so keep that in mind about her (I guess that might make Jack rival at least the majority of asari, in that context).

-Thane probably isn't that powerful in his biotics, but like Jacob and probably Miranda, he uses it to combat advantage in a smoother way than most biotics still.

-Javik is well... Javik. We don't really have a reference point with him, but he's likely top tier as well.

So... yeah. Shepard travels with some of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy. Maybe not always THE most, but the group he has, other organizations might easily try to kill for.

And yeah, any biotics that can cast a singularity is set for great things above even other biotics. Heck, I'd think even Slam and strong Barriers (etc) mean something.

I pretty much imagine most biotics as only capable of things like Throw and Lift and basic individual Barriers. You know, the basic and (relatively) blunt telekinesis tricks.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 22 janvier 2014 - 07:33 .