65 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Khavos wrote...

Well, given the existence of the 1st Special Operations Biotic Company, the Alliance appears to disagree. Heck, that pretty much answers my question, right there - they seem to be moving towards biotic-oriented special operations groups as of ME3, anyway. Even from the ME1 days, we know that biotics are usually funneled straight through to snake-eater stuff.

The Turians also have their Cabals, though discrimination and distrust seems to have played as much or more of a factor in their organization than any pragmatic considerations.

The Alliance having a single unit of special operations biotic soldiers doesn't necessarily mean the Alliance is transitioning to having their entire special operation capability being biotic. Nor does it mean it should be implemented.

For a real world comparison the US Navy SEALs focus heavily on underwater demolition and beach reconnaissance. You can't be a SEAL without also being an expert frogman. That doesn't mean however that every person serving in a special operations role in the US military is an expert frogman, or that the US military is headed in that direction. That's a somewhat specialized role for the SEALs and isn't the bread & butter of the Special Forces, for example.

Khavos wrote...

Would asari commandos be regarded as the best soldiers in the galaxy by even the turians without biotic ability? I doubt it.

Biotics probably plays into that to a fair degree, but I think experience is the bigger reason for that reputation. The description of them in the game in fact focuses more on their experience than on their biotic ability. The average maiden serving as a commando is said to have devoted at least twenty to thirty years training. That's like most of their warriors being the equivalent of a human Gunnery Sergeant or Sergeant Major, and there is no teacher quite like experience.

EDIT: By the way this conversation is super-nerdy. In trying to imagine what the SOP would/should be for military units in the MEU, my dork points are well now over 9000.

Well, at least we're not building Tali dolls.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 25 janvier 2014 - 07:23 .

[Khavos]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Turians also have their Cabals, though discrimination and distrust seems to have played as much or more of a factor in their organization than any pragmatic considerations. 

The Alliance having a single unit of special operations biotic soldiers doesn't necessarily mean the Alliance is transitioning to having their entire special operation capability being biotic. Nor does it mean it should be implemented.

For a real world comparison the US Navy SEALs focus heavily on underwater demolition and beach reconnaissance. You can't be a SEAL without also being an expert frogman. That doesn't mean however that every person serving in a special operations role in the US military is an expert frogman, or that the US military is headed in that direction. That's a somewhat specialized role for the SEALs and isn't the bread & butter of the Special Forces, for example.

I don't think it's an apt comparison, either, largely because it's a dissimilar capability from something like biotics, dependent on environmental conditions.  And, for the record, I don't know of any US special operations forces, outside possibly Air Force STS guys, who don't have dive capability.  The thing with US SOF is that they've steadily become more similar, rather than less, in an effort to mirror capability. 

Biotics probably plays into that to a fair degree, but I think experience is the bigger reason for that reputation. The description of them in the game in fact focuses more on their experience than on their biotic ability. The average maiden serving as a commando is said to have devoted at least twenty to thirty years training. That's like most of their warriors being the equivalent of a human Gunnery Sergeant or Sergeant Major, and there is no teacher quite like experience.

I think if it was experience alone, they wouldn't forbid asari who haven't developed their biotic talents sufficiently from serving in the military.

I feel like the bottom line is pretty simple here.  If you have two identical soldiers, identical in terms of training, capability, etc., and one has biotics and one doesn't, the one with biotics is obviously going to be superior.  All we need to do is go through the various codex entries to see what's up.  

Humans - biotics extremely rare, given massive enlistment bonuses and incentives, largely channeled into special ops.  

Turians - biotics extremely rare, organized in cabals, employed as shock troops or (amusingly, given our discussion about how exhausted biotics would be on long missions) in long-range recon missions.  

Krogan - krogan biotics are rare, and usually wind up as battlemasters.

Asari - every asari's a biotic, but the military won't except asari who haven't developed biotic talents.  

Salarians - the only Council race that doesn't employ its rare biotics in the form of elite/tip-of-the-spear combat units.  They use them for key intel missions instead.

[SwobyJ]

"I feel like the bottom line is pretty simple here. If you have two identical soldiers, identical in terms of training, capability, etc., and one has biotics and one doesn't, the one with biotics is obviously going to be superior."

lol I'm back to respond to this.

Innately, YES, biotics are a sign of *superiority*. In the more basic sense.

As long as the years of training happens. Biotics can take several or more years of training to get it right. Just 'having' biotics doesn't do very much.

Can I see top special forces requiring biotics except in exceptional circumstances? Yes. But I can also see them having an even more niche role due to what everyone else has been saying here.

It's more like one of the best biotic is going to very likely kick any non-biotic's ass unless that non-biotic has very very good firepower and/or technical attacks.

Biotics = I can defeat you without a gun or tools. I AM the tool. I AM the gun.

That's all.

[RangerSG]

SwobyJ wrote...

"I feel like the bottom line is pretty simple here. If you have two identical soldiers, identical in terms of training, capability, etc., and one has biotics and one doesn't, the one with biotics is obviously going to be superior."

lol I'm back to respond to this.

Innately, YES, biotics are a sign of *superiority*. In the more basic sense.

As long as the years of training happens. Biotics can take several or more years of training to get it right. Just 'having' biotics doesn't do very much.

Can I see top special forces requiring biotics except in exceptional circumstances? Yes. But I can also see them having an even more niche role due to what everyone else has been saying here.

It's more like one of the best biotic is going to very likely kick any non-biotic's ass unless that non-biotic has very very good firepower and/or technical attacks.

Biotics = I can defeat you without a gun or tools. I AM the tool. I AM the gun.

That's all.

Exactly. Biotics makes the person a weapon. That's why the space magic comparison works. But it doesn't automatically make even a 1v1 confrontation a certainty. And superior tactics or firepower can offset the advantage.

[Khavos]

How so? Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but what are the hard counters to biotics?

Range is often discussed, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. Jack's squad in ME3 focuses on biotic artillery strikes, which certainly implies that biotic attacks aren't limited to short range.

Shielding is a tricky one. ME2 gameplay would suggest that kinetic barriers completely nullify most biotics; the novels/comics/codices, from what I'm given to understand, make it clear that's a gameplay concession rather than a facet of the lore.

[gisle]

^One can counteract biotics with a biotic barrier, so I suppose a technical means to make a barrier would do the same; gear to detect M.E. fields even at distances like 100m/330ft exists (see Garrus' SB dossier). One of the characters in Ascension used a biotic barrier to shield himself from biotic abilities.

Imagine if Samara would clean house and Liara was largely inefficient due to no military training? Games have to keep things balanced so that any choice of squad-mates is a valid choice for the same purpose. Better yet, imagine if the fight against Benezia and her squad would have been 100% impossible? The reason why I assume biotics can be way more (and less) powerful than in-game is due to cutscenes like Jack's rampage in ME2 and Samara stopping a sky-car in one of the SB videos.

The lore source for that only a few shows of biotics can exhaust someone was talking about Grissom Academy students, and made no mention whether or not they had an amplifier, neither did it say how much experience they had.

As for the original question, biotic ability isn't perfect. Asari are described as at a severe disadvantage in defensive warfare, and they're the best biotics the galaxy has to offer. Human biotics are too outnumbered to even think about it.

[StarcloudSWG]

The Grissom Academy students did have amps. If you walk past the students several times, they talk about it in passing. There's an entire extended conversation that happens between two of them.

For every race but the Asari, biotic amplifiers (amps) are necessary for focused, useful biotics. Otherwise, you're struggling to lift a teacup. Even then, there's a range of power; in that conversation, one is mentioned as being 'barely able to lift a hundred kilos', and that's considered relatively weak among those students from the context.

And even the Asari benefit from having amps; witness the side quest in Huerta Memorial where you give the plans for amps that you recover from Grissom to an Asari who's been looking for them.

Also, and this is a problem that ME2 created and ME3 perpetuates, biotic barriers are tech shields are kinetic shields; they're all produced by generating a mass effect field that deflects and slows incoming projectiles.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 30 janvier 2014 - 11:26 .

[General TSAR]

Too few, need a lot of calories, and way too many "mundanes" specializing in biotic disruption tech and/or long range marksmanship.

besterisgood wrote...
She said roughly "Obviously we dont want to". So its kind of implied that they could.

Tentacleheaded Mary Sue says a lot of things.

Modifié par General TSAR, 30 janvier 2014 - 11:59 .

[RangerSG]

Khavos wrote...

How so? Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but what are the hard counters to biotics?

Range is often discussed, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. Jack's squad in ME3 focuses on biotic artillery strikes, which certainly implies that biotic attacks aren't limited to short range.

Shielding is a tricky one. ME2 gameplay would suggest that kinetic barriers completely nullify most biotics; the novels/comics/codices, from what I'm given to understand, make it clear that's a gameplay concession rather than a facet of the lore.

Range is a very plausible counter. Because biotic artillery strikes are not directed at unseen assassins with a Mantis rifle. An artillery strike means you know where the target is. An infiltrator's job is to be in position without detection. Thus artillery is irrelevant. Quite possibly barriers are as well, since a really good assassin will strike when the target is unprepared. 

And I also mentioned Priority Targeting, consistent Rate of Fire on the barrier. And, as was mentioned, a Kinetic Barrier is a kinetic barrier, regardless of the source creating it. So you don't have to watch for just enemy biotics throwing Warp. But a techie throwing an energy drain or overload. Or just your good-ole-fashioned arc projector frying out the barrier. 

And a biotic with no barrier is a dead biotic. 20 years of training, gone. All for the price of a single weapon off the assembly line. 

[Coming0fShadows]

General TSAR wrote...

Too few, need a lot of calories, and way too many "mundanes" specializing in biotic disruption tech and/or long range marksmanship.

besterisgood wrote...
She said roughly "Obviously we dont want to". So its kind of implied that they could.

Tentacleheaded Mary Sue says a lot of things.

Wrex said that they could take the galaxy over, not Liara. You took half of their conversation that i was referencing and twisted it around to make Liara sound like she was bragging, skewing my quote. Not cool.

Modifié par besterisgood, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:42 .

[General TSAR]

Little Wing feeling superior about her Asari-ism? Perish the thought.

[Br3admax]

Our lord Wrex has spoken, and thus it must be true. So says Liara, so say we all.

[General TSAR]

True, Wrex Tremendae and all that awesomeness.

I never get the blue bimbo until right before Ilos and even then I don't use her at all so I'm missing a lot of dialogue with her; however, I don't think anything of value would be gained hearing that monotone voice.

Modifié par General TSAR, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:57 .

[Coming0fShadows]

What i had to say was relevant to the topic which was everyone trying to make sense of how powerful biotics are.. Garrus also made a comment that was similar, my point being it was thrown out there a lot in common conversation, and not just by egotistical Asari. I dont see the big deal here, or the purpose behind this jabber, unless its to derail the topic (which seems to have run its course anyway).

[ImDedicatedToMyApologies]

1. Every species but asari dont get biotics naturally. They need to be exposed to eezo and get special implants and those have side effects. eg Kaiden's L2 implant could cause severe neural dmg to the user

2. Non-biotics can still carry a gun...
3. It will probably require more work to shoot a projectile of energy out of ur palm and hit ur target then to simply shoot.

4. Everyone uses shield not barrier. Biotics cant deal with shields.

ps: i accidentally quoted myself mb:crying:

Modifié par U H E, 20 février 2014 - 04:58 .

[78stonewobble]

Khavos wrote...
I feel like the bottom line is pretty simple here.  If you have two identical soldiers, identical in terms of training, capability, etc., and one has biotics and one doesn't, the one with biotics is obviously going to be superior.  All we need to do is go through the various codex entries to see what's up.  

It might seem so, but that isn't necessarily true.


The amount of n7 level missions may far surpass the availability of biotic n7's.

Biotic capable n7's might be wasted on certain missions that only require n7 level of training, but not biotic capability.
 
There might be certain types of missions where biotic n7's might perform inferiorly to non-biotic n7's, perhaps in certain cases where endurance is of the utmost importance due to the difficulty of resupplying.



Having both gives flexibility.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 20 février 2014 - 08:40 .