As much as we'd like to pretend that warriors and rogues have power, the REAL powers are mages. A great warrior can dispatch a group of enemies, a great rogue can dispatch a heavily guarded and powerful enemy, but a great mage can dispatch entire armies with arcane power.
REAL power, not contained in the swinging of metal sticks and twigs, but calling on the forces of nature or worse itself.
They ARE Power. Why should they accept being shackled and bound? The Tevinter Imperium have it right, all peoples should live under a mageocracy. Except drarves, they can live under the dirt.
Why shouldn't mages rule the world?
Débuté par
tybert7
, janv. 13 2014 07:58
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#2
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:12
Walrider
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Dove antiperspirant deodorant. Strong enough for a warrior, made for a mage.
#3
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:12
andar91
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Because raw power does not equal the ability to lead effectively. Somebody born with an enormously large IQ does not necessarily have the social skills, for instance, required to effectively manage people, and large-scale leadership requires delegation--you cant' do it all yourself. Also, magic has limits.
The biggest reason for Thedas specifically is that mages face significant danger of losing themselves to otherworldly creatures that turn them into psychopaths against their will. If all of teh world's leaders were mages....well, it would be a bit like the Deathstar having that one hole in the side that, if exploited, results in the Deathstar's total annihilation. It's a small hole, and a small chance that it will actually happen, but if it does the results are catastrophic. I'd argue the chances of a mage being possessed are even greater than the Deathstar hole's exploitation.
Also, the temptation to control the minds of political opponents would be enormous and a serious violation of free will. If you don't care about free will, then I suppose it's fine, but such leadership would likely face a rebellion very quickly.
Does any of this mean that mages shouldn't have ANY positions of power? I would say not. But the idea of mages exclusively ruling because of some Darwinian sociological notion that the strong must conquer the weak is dangerous, and it ignores the fact that we are not just individuals, we are individuals that form communities and societies that work together for mutual benefit.
The biggest reason for Thedas specifically is that mages face significant danger of losing themselves to otherworldly creatures that turn them into psychopaths against their will. If all of teh world's leaders were mages....well, it would be a bit like the Deathstar having that one hole in the side that, if exploited, results in the Deathstar's total annihilation. It's a small hole, and a small chance that it will actually happen, but if it does the results are catastrophic. I'd argue the chances of a mage being possessed are even greater than the Deathstar hole's exploitation.
Also, the temptation to control the minds of political opponents would be enormous and a serious violation of free will. If you don't care about free will, then I suppose it's fine, but such leadership would likely face a rebellion very quickly.
Does any of this mean that mages shouldn't have ANY positions of power? I would say not. But the idea of mages exclusively ruling because of some Darwinian sociological notion that the strong must conquer the weak is dangerous, and it ignores the fact that we are not just individuals, we are individuals that form communities and societies that work together for mutual benefit.
#4
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:16
azarhal
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andar91 wrote...
Because raw power does not equal the ability to lead effectively. Somebody born with an enormously large IQ does not necessarily have the social skills, for instance, required to effectively manage people, and large-scale leadership requires delegation--you cant' do it all yourself. Also, magic has limits.
The biggest reason for Thedas specifically is that mages face significant danger of losing themselves to otherworldly creatures that turn them into psychopaths against their will. If all of teh world's leaders were mages....well, it would be a bit like the Deathstar having that one hole in the side that, if exploited, results in the Deathstar's total annihilation. It's a small hole, and a small chance that it will actually happen, but if it does the results are catastrophic. I'd argue the chances of a mage being possessed are even greater than the Deathstar hole's exploitation.
Also, the temptation to control the minds of political opponents would be enormous and a serious violation of free will. If you don't care about free will, then I suppose it's fine, but such leadership would likely face a rebellion very quickly.
Does any of this mean that mages shouldn't have ANY positions of power? I would say not. But the idea of mages exclusively ruling because of some Darwinian sociological notion that the strong must conquer the weak is dangerous, and it ignores the fact that we are not just individuals, we are individuals that form communities and societies that work together for mutual benefit.
+1
Do I have to add some charrs?
#5
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:16
Lady Lionheart
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Because they do stupid things like embrace demons.
#6
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:19
tybert7
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This is why I want to see Tevinter. THIS is the only known place where mages rule the land, is it really a newly minted 10th hell on earth? A new opening for which demons reign?
This is another problem, in all the centuries, how can mages allow themselves to be so easily enslaved by demons? They need to find a way to not succumb to their powers. That was the issue in DA2, every mage WAS a timebomb, but it can't be that the wills of mages are so weak that any stressors will make them explode.
They need spells or charms to ward that off, they are mages, not unknowing barbarians like warriors, THEY should be the ones who have methods to stay in control. Not having these methods suggests an underlying hatred of mages.
The creator(s) gifts them this power, and gives them no means to control it. Born sick, and commanded to be well... hmm, maybe I'd side with the demon too if that was the "justice" of the creator
This is another problem, in all the centuries, how can mages allow themselves to be so easily enslaved by demons? They need to find a way to not succumb to their powers. That was the issue in DA2, every mage WAS a timebomb, but it can't be that the wills of mages are so weak that any stressors will make them explode.
They need spells or charms to ward that off, they are mages, not unknowing barbarians like warriors, THEY should be the ones who have methods to stay in control. Not having these methods suggests an underlying hatred of mages.
The creator(s) gifts them this power, and gives them no means to control it. Born sick, and commanded to be well... hmm, maybe I'd side with the demon too if that was the "justice" of the creator
#7
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:21
Augustei
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If they want to rule they can certainly try and stake their claim to leadership, Only so they can be once again taught their place and a lesson be administered that they will remember for all time.
But yeah your idea that because someone is physically power means they should be leaders makes no sense. Does that mean we should make our world leaders champion boxers or something? lol
But yeah your idea that because someone is physically power means they should be leaders makes no sense. Does that mean we should make our world leaders champion boxers or something? lol
#8
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:23
TheKomandorShepard
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because they are so weak they get their ass whoped like 5 years old vs terminator every time unless they become abomnation?
#9
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:25
Rotward
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As Kaiden Alenko would say: big place!
#10
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:32
teh DRUMPf!!
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tybert7 wrote...
They ARE Power. Why should they accept being shackled and bound?
- because the needs of the many come first, and the many need freedom/protection from slavery and blood-sacrifices.
The Circle isn't perfect, but mages can't be totally un-shackled. That's just crazy-talk.
#11
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:41
Sir JK
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Because the ability to kill does not make you a leader. It makes you a bully.
Often in history, the powers that be are closely intertwined with killing, yes. And frequently, rulers were bullies in this sense. But by and large, the reason warlords came to be rulers is that in order to win wars you must -lead-. And though making war does not grant you the skills to manage society, it does grant you the skill to manage people. It was not the best killers that became rulers (except if they stole the position and they never lasted long), it was the best leaders.
Magic is only granted by pure chance/the grace of the maker. It's not tied to training, wisdom or skill. You're born with it, and while aforementioned traits will improve it they are by no means neccessary. There's nothing that ties magic to leadership. Same as for learning to handle a sword. They have nothing to do with being good rulers, good leaders or the improvement of they people over which they lord.
Even nobility, which is just as heriditary as magic is, has requirements of the noble. Break those requirement and your legal right to rule is forfeited. Things such as protecting your people, managing your realm and upholding justice.
Nobility is despite this, a very bad way to weed out rulers, it's only benefit is that it generally put the best educated and trained in the position of rulers. And in rare occasion, exceptional individuals could be elevated to the class.
Magic does not even have this. Sure, you could create a magical ruling class akin to nobles. But it's a needless limitation of the available pool. You're going to miss so many excellent people simply because they're not born with a certain ability to injure/kill. Instead to have a large amount of wastrels, tyrants, bullies and the unwilling that are pushed into the position over people better suited for it simply because they have magic.
That's not saying good rulers could be mages, they absolutely could. But the two are completely unrelated. And sadly, magic is very prone to be abused to reach for that which is not deserved.
After all... Why accept a no when you can make it true?
Often in history, the powers that be are closely intertwined with killing, yes. And frequently, rulers were bullies in this sense. But by and large, the reason warlords came to be rulers is that in order to win wars you must -lead-. And though making war does not grant you the skills to manage society, it does grant you the skill to manage people. It was not the best killers that became rulers (except if they stole the position and they never lasted long), it was the best leaders.
Magic is only granted by pure chance/the grace of the maker. It's not tied to training, wisdom or skill. You're born with it, and while aforementioned traits will improve it they are by no means neccessary. There's nothing that ties magic to leadership. Same as for learning to handle a sword. They have nothing to do with being good rulers, good leaders or the improvement of they people over which they lord.
Even nobility, which is just as heriditary as magic is, has requirements of the noble. Break those requirement and your legal right to rule is forfeited. Things such as protecting your people, managing your realm and upholding justice.
Nobility is despite this, a very bad way to weed out rulers, it's only benefit is that it generally put the best educated and trained in the position of rulers. And in rare occasion, exceptional individuals could be elevated to the class.
Magic does not even have this. Sure, you could create a magical ruling class akin to nobles. But it's a needless limitation of the available pool. You're going to miss so many excellent people simply because they're not born with a certain ability to injure/kill. Instead to have a large amount of wastrels, tyrants, bullies and the unwilling that are pushed into the position over people better suited for it simply because they have magic.
That's not saying good rulers could be mages, they absolutely could. But the two are completely unrelated. And sadly, magic is very prone to be abused to reach for that which is not deserved.
After all... Why accept a no when you can make it true?
#12
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:42
Yendor_Trawz
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Because they can't open chests anymore.
#13
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:54
Asdrubael Vect
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Humans inferrior....elves superrior. Elvennan approves.
All magic belongs to the elves.
All magic belongs to the elves.
Modifié par Dark Korsar, 13 janvier 2014 - 08:56 .
#14
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 08:56
Veruin
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Dark Korsar wrote...
Humans inferrior....elves superrior. Elvennan approves.
Pfft. If Elves mate with anyone but elves, the result isn't elven. Elven genes are practically designed to be conquered.
#15
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:03
ManOfSteel
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andar91 wrote...
Because raw power does not equal the ability to lead effectively. Somebody born with an enormously large IQ does not necessarily have the social skills, for instance, required to effectively manage people, and large-scale leadership requires delegation--you cant' do it all yourself. Also, magic has limits.
The biggest reason for Thedas specifically is that mages face significant danger of losing themselves to otherworldly creatures that turn them into psychopaths against their will. If all of teh world's leaders were mages....well, it would be a bit like the Deathstar having that one hole in the side that, if exploited, results in the Deathstar's total annihilation. It's a small hole, and a small chance that it will actually happen, but if it does the results are catastrophic. I'd argue the chances of a mage being possessed are even greater than the Deathstar hole's exploitation.
Also, the temptation to control the minds of political opponents would be enormous and a serious violation of free will. If you don't care about free will, then I suppose it's fine, but such leadership would likely face a rebellion very quickly.
Does any of this mean that mages shouldn't have ANY positions of power? I would say not. But the idea of mages exclusively ruling because of some Darwinian sociological notion that the strong must conquer the weak is dangerous, and it ignores the fact that we are not just individuals, we are individuals that form communities and societies that work together for mutual benefit.
Nailed it.
#16
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:04
Lulupab
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Veruin wrote...
Dark Korsar wrote...
Humans inferrior....elves superrior. Elvennan approves.
Pfft. If Elves mate with anyone but elves, the result isn't elven. Elven genes are practically designed to be conquered.
There have been no real records of elves mating with other races other than humans certainly not with qunari. Elves have higher chance of producing mage children and its a theory that Sandal is bastard of an elf mage and a dwarf, because the magic was so strong Sandal actually got magical abilities but his dwarven resistance shut it down making him to automaticaly become a tranquil.
#17
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:04
Asdrubael Vect
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defence systemVeruin wrote...
Dark Korsar wrote...
Humans inferrior....elves superrior. Elvennan approves.
Pfft. If Elves mate with anyone but elves, the result isn't elven. Elven genes are practically designed to be conquered.
none exept elves can using elven magic technology and rituals
and no one can became like Elvennan elves, Ancient Tevinter failed despite all the efforts
and elves does need to mate with non-elves, lose access to elven magic technology, natural great magic powers and longevity))) its always was a humans who wanted to become like elvannan elves)))
Modifié par Dark Korsar, 13 janvier 2014 - 09:09 .
#18
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:06
Hanako Ikezawa
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I couldn't help but read this in Soundwave's voice.Dark Korsar wrote...
Humans inferrior....elves superrior.
#19
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:09
Afro_Explosion
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Tevinter is why mages shouldn't have too much power.
#20
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:10
Medhia Nox
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Because there is no "Govern Wisely" spell - and mages on Thedas have no value as people without magic - because that is ALL they ever talk about... all the time.
#21
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:11
Asdrubael Vect
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*fixedAncient Tevinter who obey Old Gods is why HUMANS mages and non-mages shouldn't have too much power.
#22
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:16
Afro_Explosion
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Modern tevinter is essentially the same as old tevinter. Blood magic is only legal in name, and they are still reliant on slaves to the point it will collapse without it.Dark Korsar wrote...
*fixed
Ancient Tevinter who obey Old Gods is why HUMANS mages and non-mages shouldn't have too much power.
#23
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:18
Lulupab
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Yet evidently there are much less abominations in Tevinter. Magic is their thing and no one can control it better than them. Not saying Tevinter is good country or it should rule the world but it certainly knows more about magic than anywhere else. And by control I mean controling abomination not the urge to gain more power.
Modifié par Rassler, 13 janvier 2014 - 09:19 .
#24
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:21
Sylvius the Mad
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Like that ever stopped a despot.andar91 wrote...
Because raw power does not equal the ability to lead effectively.
Why do you think the many deserve that protection? If the mages are able to protect themselves, why would they feel compelled to help those who cannot?HYR 2.0 wrote...
- because the needs of the many come first, and the many need freedom/protection from slavery and blood-sacrifices.
#25
Posté 13 janvier 2014 - 09:26
HiroVoid
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If they were so great, they'd already be ruling the world.
