423 réponses à ce sujet

[Proleric]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

I've added a few options to vote on to the possible additions for 2.60 page and one to the page for possible overhauls to existing CEP content...

Voted.

I added some ideas to the "suggestions" page a few days ago. How do we move them forward to the "possible" (voting) page? Are we expecting the proposer to contact the author? If the work has already been released on an explicit open license, presumably that's unnecessary?

[Zarathustra217]

I think it's fine if it's just AD initiating the actual polls for now, in that easy slowly moving us through the suggestions. In that way we don't lose overview due to clutter, but can move through it gradually.

[3RavensMore]

We get to vote on new content? Just how cool is that I ask you! Thanks AD for that.

[Tarot Redhand]

AD could you provide direct links to the polls on the CEP wiki please as it is now upto 25 pages already. ()

TR

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Possible Content Additions

Possible Content Overhauls

[Tiberius_Morguhn]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

The biggest current limit on expansion is in the areas of shields and weapons.  Evidently shields are pretty much filled out.  There are work-arounds that are relatively easy to handle.

Weapons...expand into "color channels" 5-9.  Already started with a couple of weapons, but there's lots of room for expansion.  It means that 5-9 won't necessarily be color variants based on color channel 1's appearance, and there's also the fact that regular NWN can't handle scripting of color channels other than 1-4, so it'd all be for toolset use.  There's a NWNX2 plugin that is supposed to remove the scripting limitation, it just won't work on my server for some reason (none of Terra777's plugins work for me, unfortunately).

EDIT:  ARRRGH!  Does anyone know how to embed a side-scrollable code box so that stuff like .2da lines doesn't get line wrapped and look like crap??????

I'm not really seeing weapon additions as an impediment.  The CEP is already plumbed out for this (see clipping of baseitems.2da below) and really just requires some model renaming along with palette ITP changes and TLK changes.  Those things are already done as is anyways.  I have used this system to add many weapons to a WIP module of my own.  Now one thing I have not tried is to script anything with these new weapons...and that may be a limiting factor similar to the color 5-9 issue.  Am I missing something with this???

330       16807252     Longsword_2              1                4                 0x1C030            1                 2             WSwLz           0                  1               1               1               it_bag            iwswlz              0             ****            3              3              ****             1.5                10           255          1           8             2              2               1            15           1            2                  1687            9                8            0            0              1              45           256          ****         ****         ****         4              0          0                 5417                0                   1                  40           1                 ****               ****            ****                   50              50              50              70                 1
331       ****         Shortsword_2             ****             ****              ****               ****              ****          WSwSz           ****               ****            ****            ****            ****              ****                ****          ****            ****           ****           ****             ****               ****         ****         ****        ****          ****           ****            ****         ****         ****         ****               ****            ****             ****         ****         ****           ****           ****         ****         ****         ****         ****         ****           ****       ****              ****                ****                ****               ****         ****              ****               ****            ****                   ****            ****            ****            ****               ****
332       ****         BattleAxe_2              ****             ****              ****               ****              ****          WAxBz           ****               ****            ****            ****            ****              ****                ****          ****            ****           ****           ****             ****               ****         ****         ****        ****          ****           ****            ****         ****         ****         ****               ****            ****             ****         ****         ****           ****           ****         ****         ****         ****         ****         ****           ****       ****              ****                ****                ****               ****         ****              ****               ****            ****                   ****            ****            ****            ****               ****
333       16807255     BastardSword_2           2                4                 0x1C030            1                 2             WSwBz           0                  1               1               1               it_bag            iwswbz              0             ****            3              3              ****             1.6                10           255          1           10            2              2               1            35           1            2                  2288            9                8            0            0              1              44           ****         ****         ****         ****         4              0          0                 5434                0                   1                  100          11                ****               ****            ****                   65              65              35              71                 1

Modifié par Tiberius_Morguhn, 07 février 2014 - 04:16 .

[Lazarus Magni]

3RavensMore wrote...

We get to vote on new content? Just how cool is that I ask you! Thanks AD for that.

Good Stuff.

[Proleric]

It's also possible to make suggestions:

Content Additions
Content Overhaul
Fix broken stuff

I'd like to raise awareness of these pages, as very few of us have responded so far.

Modifié par Proleric1, 07 février 2014 - 09:56 .

[ehye_khandee]

KUDOs to TAD and the crew. This has been long overdue. I will address all other details of my feedback in the wikia and cep forum. MANY THANKS.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[Zarathustra217]

Since the cep_core1.hak doesn't contain any model files, I've moved on to fix the models in cep_core2.hak. Examples of fixes are lighting issues for 663 models, compile errors in 24 files, minor skinmesh issues in more than 30 files, etc. etc.

You can grab the updated cep_core2.hak here: link

Again, please let me know if you encounter any issues while using it. The core2 hak mainly contain creature files.

Modifié par Zarathustra217, 14 février 2014 - 06:15 .

[Lazarus Magni]

I voted did all of you?

I hope not cause then my vote is worth more.

JK, vote peoples! It's not painful.

[Zarathustra217]

I've not received a single word of feedback on the packages I've released so far - I'm hoping it's because people aren't finding any errors with it, but can anyone here confirm that they've checked them out?

And TAD, are you checking the associated email regularly? I've not received reply from the last two I send.

[Proleric]

Zarathustra217 wrote...

I've not received a single word of feedback on the packages I've released so far - I'm hoping it's because people aren't finding any errors with it, but can anyone here confirm that they've checked them out?

And TAD, are you checking the associated email regularly? I've not received reply from the last two I send.

To be honest, I downloaded core0, but haven't done much with it, because I'm not sure what to look for.

[Zarathustra217]

Yeah, I understand if that aspect seems a bit obscure, especially since there's so many fixes but given that they are also mostly minor. Far the most fixes are lighting issues which you'll only notice by things no longer appearing unnaturally dark. Most of the errors that might pop up should be easy to spot though when they are there because for the most part, they'll be very apparent (like misaligned bodyparts, models no longer animating, models causing errors messages popping up in the toolset, etc.)

Modifié par Zarathustra217, 15 février 2014 - 10:29 .

[Zarathustra217]

To give you an idea of what these fixes entail, here's a example before and after image of some of the content that I've fixed.

Before

After

Modifié par Zarathustra217, 15 février 2014 - 07:41 .

[OldTimeRadio]

Zarathustra217, from reading your entry on the CEP Fixes page and from this thread, it appears that almost 700 models you mention here (that you've already done in cep_core2.hak) and another 6,000+ models (mentioned on the CEP Fixes page) are presumably slated for "improvement" by having their Ambient and Diffuse set to 1 1 1 as a "fix". 

Why do you automatically consider models which have Ambient and Diffuse set to non-1 1 1 values as being "improper" or broken?

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 15 février 2014 - 10:17 .

[Zarathustra217]

An excellent question. Let me briefly try to explain why I think it's justifiable to apply this "fix" en masse as I do.

First of all, from my own experience working with this, far, far the most of the times I've looked into it in detail, it has actually constituted a fix. It is in fact exceptionally rare that you would intentionally want a model to not have ambient and diffuse set to 1 1 1 because when you texture an object, you will almost always make the texture as you want it to appear when fully lit. Among other things, this gives you the largest range of light available to be determined by your texture, thus allowing the texture to add more depth - but it also simply give you the most control of the final appearance. Almost no Bioware models use other than those settings too (except for dummy nodes or things used just for casting shadows), and I suspect in most of those cases where they actually have other settings, it's due to oversights. Generally, it tends to give a more blurred or "muddled" impression.

Second, using other settings may potentially also cause different objects in game to be rendered inconsistently. For example, mismatched ambient and diffuse settings cause an object to be less receptive to ambient light compared to diffuse lighting which will only very exceptionally make sense (and then only marginally so).

Now, there are a few rare objects where it does have merit to use other than diffuse and ambient settings of 1 1 1, and the point of testing is to catch that. But so far I've found that in 99.5% of the cases, it is a fix. And giving the vast amount of objects in the CEP in need of this fix, I'd say it's fully justifiable. Again, it's either that or nothing. It's much, much less work to catch those few models that might not need those settings and correct them, than going through the tens of thousands others.

[KlatchainCoffee]

Zarathustra217 wrote...

To give you an idea of what these fixes entail, here's a example before and after image of some of the content that I've fixed.

Before

After

I have no opinion to offer on the lighting, but some of them do look considerably improved and probably a good addition/change, assuming they see proper testing etc. before implementation.

[Zarathustra217]

KlatchainCoffee wrote...

Zarathustra217 wrote...

To give you an idea of what these fixes entail, here's a example before and after image of some of the content that I've fixed.

Before

After

I have no opinion to offer on the lighting, but some of them do look considerably improved and probably a good addition/change, assuming they see proper testing etc. before implementation.

Try to pay attention to the two trolls on each side of the image - they have excellent textures (some of the best user made models overall really), but with the old settings, it is often hard to appreciate all the details.

I fully grant that I'm making assumptions about the original author's intentions though, but at least to me, it seems fairly obvious that this is actually closer to what he had in mind.

[Zarathustra217]

To better illustrate the point about consistency, I tried to screenshot the same scene but now with a few default Bioware models added too (an orc, a few chairs, two barrels and a stool).

Before

After

What I want you to notice here is how the objects in the "after" image appears more in continuance (lightning-wise) with the default Bioware models.

Anyway, I apologise if this is derailing the topic. If a majority are sceptical for whatever reason, then I'll just leave it be.

Modifié par Zarathustra217, 16 février 2014 - 01:31 .

[Proleric]

Zarathustra217 wrote...

...What I want you to notice here is how the objects in the "after" image appears more in continuance (lightning-wise) with the default Bioware models...

That looks like a huge improvement, especially when viewed on decent kit.

[MerricksDad]

yes, this is a critical difference! good find!

[OldTimeRadio]

Zarathustra217, I don't find your explanation pursuasive.  Some of your assertions are flat-out incorrect.

If you've taken the time to explore what the Ambient and Diffuse settings are, you'll know they exist to tweak or tint an existing texture, either to produce a specific effect in certain lighting conditions or, in the case of tinting, modify the overall color of the texture without having to create an entirely new texture.

Bioware even brought up the method in the 3DS Max Export script documentation, indicated they'd used it themselves, and recommended it to the community:

The second is the diffuse colour. We can use this colour to tint the lighting of an object, which is useful in many cases. It should be noted that if you use this tinting as an actual colour changer (which we did), dynamic lights can still bring it up to its full value.

References to this method (or variations on it) can also be found in the Omnibus.  In light of this, when you make statements that Bioware's use of non-1 1 1 Ambient and/or Diffuse were probably "oversights", your assertion loses credibility.  When you apply that same dubious assumption to hundreds and potentially thousands of models in CEP, made by almost as many different community members, it doesn't gain any more credibility. 

There's also the unstated implication that any new models going into CEP will also have this process run on them.  That's troubling.

Now, I want to address something else you said, specifically:

Zarathustra217 wrote...
...because when you texture an object, you will almost always make the texture as you want it to appear when fully lit. Among other things, this gives you the largest range of light available to be determined by your texture, thus allowing the texture to add more depth - but it also simply give you the most control of the final appearance.

That's completely incorrect.  My tests indicated that forcing the Ambient and Diffuse to 1 1 1 did the exact opposite of what you state.  I posted about it in some detail so the community would be aware of the issue.  Applying an Ambient and Diffuse of 1 1 1 on a trimesh yeilds the absolute least range of light possible for those settings on a texture.

Carrying this process out indescriminately en masse is a terrible idea.  Ambient and Diffuse are not dials on a mixing board whose sole purpose is to always be turned up to 10.  Think about it.  Does that even make sense? 

According to your own estimates, this is a change that you'd like to indiscriminately apply to around 7,000 models.  There's no technical benefit to be gained.  This is purely an aesthetic presumption on your part.  It is not a "fix".  I'm sure it has some application in individual scenarios but that's not what we're talking about here.

After looking over just this aspect of your mass manipulation, I'm worried your other "fixes" might also be as arbitrary.  Looking at your comments in this thread earlier and here (Message I'm talking about starts with "I did a complete" and includes your self-replies), I get the impression that your skills and trepidation are lacking in a situation where finished work will be passed out to the lion's share of the NWN community.

Worse, none of this work has to take place at all.  You're declaring it does.

[3RavensMore]

Well, after reading the last few pages regarding ambient and diffuse values in the models, and the mass "fixes" being made, I'm growing more and more cautious about ever updated my CEP. As a builder, I've worked very hard to light my placeable heavy areas. How would these changes effect the tons of work already done?

Modifié par 3RavensMore, 19 février 2014 - 12:14 .

[OldTimeRadio]

3RavensMore wrote...
Well, after reading the last few pages regarding ambient and diffuse values in the models, and the mass "fixes" being made, I'm growing more and more cautious about ever updated my CEP. As a builder, I've worked very hard to light my placeable heavy areas. How would these changes effect the tons of work already done?

I don't think they've actually been included in whatever is to become of the next CEP update.  Just proposals at this point.  AFAIK.

As far as how much the changes would affect existing work, it all depends on the Ambient and Diffuse settings in the existing area lighting and how much of Ambient, Diffuse or both was used to modify the texture, originally.