423 réponses à ce sujet

[MerricksDad]

mmmm...computerized automation...something just hit the bottom of the table

anyway, as much as I like CEP's content, and as much as people are adding off topic comments, I'd like to add my two cents:

I personally don't use CEP as a package. I'm not a PW builder anymore. I'm just a module guy. For modules, I find CEP to be a total waste of time, as is. When I was building from a PW standpoint, I actually took early CEP, CRP and other haks and merged only what I wanted into the world, saving a lot of picking and hunting in the toolset while building. I don't know how many PW folks agree with me on that point, maybe not many today, but I found CEP to be a huge waste of time packaged as it was. I would have preferred a neatly indexed library of resources rolled into a directory structure. One that I could pick and choose from easily and repackage. I realize 2DA and TLK work is actually "work" for some people, so I know that would not work for the majority of users.

I also say this stuff to you now using my time machine (not a TARDIS). You see, I am talking to you anywhere from 2000 to 2006. Back in this day, our computers are slower, and the toolset is crap.

I know this is heading off topic, kinda, but what I would prefer is an html form catalog that goes with the CEP package. When I was doing my 1000's of tiles in a single tileset deal, with a program to pick tiles and create on the fly SET files, I cataloged my tiles in two forms: 1) top down annotated drawings on graph paper, and 2) 2D still shots of every tile I created, taken from a certain forced angle that I managed by using GMAX functions. I kept the paper version, but not the screenshots, when I downsized all my old stuff (and lost 66k+ WoWC images too). Anyway, the idea is, I think, a good one, and something that the CEP staffers should take on once the project is on the tracks.

Following with that idea, check out this sims 3 store: here. Look down on the right side, this object has a little box that says "add to game" with some other links. Such a catalog would be great if it could pull out the required files associated with that resource and spit out some 2da line data and TLK data that you could add to your own haks.

I'm thinking out loud here, but if I were doing CEP by myself, I would do this.

[Squatting Monk]

henesua wrote...

If you aren't going to participate, your complaints about how much work is involved with any project is moot. Furthermore its counterproductive.

I have to disagree with this. People need an accurate understanding of what they're signing up for if they join. It makes sense to have the discussion about the scope of the project and the work involved before people commit, not after.

[Shadooow]

henesua wrote...

ShaDoOoW, I'm not following your reasoning on this. Perhaps you got things reversed?

• The CEP packages have always been about expansion of custom content.
• And facelifts/overrides are never about expansion, but instead improve the game's base graphic assets (meaning the stuff that Bioware released).

So are you saying that since CEP has been about organizing graphic assets that extend the game, overrides/facelifts should not be part of it?

Given my proposals above - that CEP change from being about one product, to a group with the mission of organizing Custom Content for the wider community, and that CEP projects should be modular, and interoperable - I don't understand why you have a problem with putting the CEP brand on a Facelift package.

Perhaps I haven't been clear enough:
Any CEP project I work on will be a stand-alone project which will work with any other CEP project. Meaning that it would NOT be added on to a monolithic, all or

Your reasoning why to do it s the same that I consider as why not to do it . i just see no relevance with CEP. Yes make a facelift project I think it is something that is missing here (though Zwerk covered almost everything tileset-basis already and my patch is covering some GUI improvements). But what it has to do with CEP? Why you intent to include it in CEP althought optional? Why just not do it as a standalone project?

Ok you right, why would that bother me if this is optional, hmm I guess it wont, I just think that you are trying to make CEP something it never was meant to be and that we should't change the CEP to be all content existing inclusive, all content existing compatible. Project Q and CEP are different things, I doesnt understand why some of you are suggesting a compatibility of CEP with Q, it smells with taking Q into CEP2 base (though Im sure you dont intent this TAD when you make it officially compatible it will be practically it just that a builder have to download q elsewhere) which seems to me like an apples and oranges. If I were Q member I wouldnt like a worlds combining Q with CEP really. But Im not so you can ignore my opinion on this :innocent:

Pstemarie wrote...

Now we're going to drag NwnE into it?
Really? Expansion means ADDING content. NWnE was always about adding
content - I should know I designed it. CEP has always been about
expansion. The only difference between the two was the type of assets we
decided to expand upon. Sorry neither project fit your vision, but its
time to move on.

Furthermore, your Community Patch changes all
kinds of Bioware content and is every bit as monolithic in nature as the
CEP. That's its greatest strength. So why on earth would you bash a
project for doing the same thing you did?

It is all connected. CEP, Q, CTP, CMP, CCP, CPP, NWNE and also HR,CRAP (EDIT: and CUP of course!). In days of CEP1 it was nice as the CEP didnt interfered with this other content. Then Barry came and tried to make a CEP to be all this inclusive. This was imo terrible decision and its the main reason why I am ignoring CEP2.
I think that each of these project should support themselves. Maybe except CCP, all of them does something different and there is no reason to combine them.

I didnt want to discuss NWNE nor Q nor CPP. I wanted to point out that CEP was never designed to be expansion in the true nature opposed to NWNE. So I think we shouldnt try to make it one.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 janvier 2014 - 03:35 .

[Shadooow]

MerricksDad wrote...

I personally don't use CEP as a package. I'm not a PW builder anymore. I'm just a module guy. For modules, I find CEP to be a total waste of time, as is. When I was building from a PW standpoint, I actually took early CEP, CRP and other haks and merged only what I wanted into the world, saving a lot of picking and hunting in the toolset while building. I don't know how many PW folks agree with me on that point, maybe not many today, but I found CEP to be a huge waste of time packaged as it was. I would have preferred a neatly indexed library of resources rolled into a directory structure. One that I could pick and choose from easily and repackage. I realize 2DA and TLK work is actually "work" for some people, so I know that would not work for the majority of users.

Exactly my point of view as well. Im still using the old CEP1, but CEP2 seems to me like a waste. I wasnt even able to found that 4gigabytes of extra content over CEP1. Found like 500 creature models which most of was reskins of old/bioware's anyway and there is lot of placeables, but without blueprints which I havent found anywhere to download (ok for project of this scope they shouldnt be in haks I understand that) its like its not there. Especially for placeables, using creatures is easy without blueprints but builder needs blueprints for placeables, if there arent whats the point.

I dont mind having 5 gigabytes of content on my disk, I dont mind having all the content ever created on disk, but when its compiled into one set of haks it makes everything super slowly and crashy for almost no gain since there is lot of content I will never use. I like the way how it works in NWN2 though we are probably not able to make this work here, not without a client modification. So nah, Im not interested in any of the new CEP2 update.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Ok, here are my thoughts, from when I decided to instigate this little mutiny until now (after reading everythings in this thread and the beginnings of a CEP wiki).

My original goal: Update the CEP, keeping it useable by folks like myself that already use version 2.1 - 2.4.  Add new content, fix bugs, publish.  Not taking any content out of CEP haks or moving all of the CEP content into haks with other names, just keeping the thing from dying off completely, since we haven't seen an update in almost three years to something a lot of folks use for servers and/or single player modules.

The idea for optional modular use was mentioned. I had one idea laid out, then scrapped it when I came up with a better method (built on existing CEP haks plus new content, but with various modular "control/top" haks for 2da files, set files, etc.).

The entire idea still being that there be a single download for all players and builders, with the same files included, so that a builder could decide what to use ("classic/default" or "modular"), and any player with the latest CEP would be able to play that module (assuming a CEP-only module here).  Or even that a builder could still use CEP 2.1 to 2.4 if he/she wants, and players with the latest download would be able to just play that module/server without having to download extra "legacy" haks.

In regards to a "merger" with Project Q, my thought was only to offer an option for builders with the 2da files and such pre-merged.  Not including Project Q itself.  Probably going to just dump this from consideration, because it would have to be updated every time either Q or CEP gets updated to stay useable, and it could never be a great option (if people want to use both Q and CEP in their module, they likely have more content they want to merge files for anyway).

With the CEP, a builder can download the files, add them his/her module,
and build.  No worrying about merging 2da or tlk files, or checking to
see if players have the right combination of files downloaded. At the
moment it's only partially modular, but it's pretty easy to work with.

As far as totally changing the focus of CEP...I've never seen it as an "organization/group", nor as a "brand"...simply a collection of community-made content bundled together to make it easier for builders to access a large variety of stuff.

Instead of changing the focus of a project that has had the same focus since it's inception (what? a decade ago?), why not start up a new "umbrella organization" that would pick and choose what content to include and put out to the community?  Maybe call it "Committee for Improving NWN" or something along those lines.  There's still a few people working in the Academy of Modding Excellence, perhaps there's an untapped demand for an Academy of Content Excellence.

I have no delusions of, or aspirations toward, a massive and far-reaching undertaking.  I think it's perfectly manageable to make some reasonable updates to the CEP, including a mix of bug fixes and new content.  I know I couldn't just do bug fixes...I do have that constant call to create new things (like today when I was able to cross four new/updated creature models off my to-do list that I created while on a self-imposed 1 week hiatus from gmax).

Some of us do have other things that take up time in our lives.  In
addition to NWN, I'm a stay at home dad with four young kids (ages
3-10), a house I'm fixing up to sell, and a wife that sometimes likes a
little social interaction from her spouse. My NWN time comes mainly
after everyone else is asleep and after I've squeezed in a little
exercise (I average 4-5 hours of sleep a night).  Sometimes I'll even
pull our my big ol' M60 and mow people down in a hail of bullets for a
few minutes (CoD: Black Ops on the Wii).

I just wouldn't vanish for a year+ without coercing tricking bribing someone with cookies asking someone else nicely to take over coordination.

I had originally started with a possible version jump to CEP 3, just to carry across that "under new management" feeling, but calling it CEP 2.5, or 2.6, CEP: Revival (CEPr 2.5?), or whatever would work as well.  Never meant the "CEP 3" title to imply rebuilding the entire thing from scratch and leaving older modules/servers/content behind.

As far as CCC stuff not getting released for months...that happened only once (back with the steampunk stuff when I had just taken over coordination and was hoping for more than 2 submissions for that month, but never got them).  Sure, I may take a couple weeks after the 1st sometimes to post stuff, but I still get it collected and out.  I was just finishing up stuff today when I discovered that one submission I thought I already had in was missing an email attachment.  When that one comes in, it'll all get posted to the new Vault.

And now, I shall stop rambling, as I have to get up in 4 1/2 hours to take my kids to school.

Edited to add: As far as the CEP "missing blueprints"...one great way for "beginners" to contribute might be to use the toolset to make basic blueprints for all those placeables, creatures, and doors to include in a collection of .erfs that could be packaged included in the CEP download to be imported.  Maybe one .erf for each category or subcategory in the CEP palettes?

I say .erfs, simply because they're easy for a builder to import, and once imported they can be edited or deleted as the builder sees fit (rather than included in a regular or "build" hak).

And if making placeable blueprints, please consider making them set to "static", for people that just want to lay out an area and decorate it without having to edit the properties of every painting or table to make it so.  Thanks!

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 17 janvier 2014 - 09:10 .

[Shadooow]

Ok cep2 update then. I suggest not to move to v3 in name from the reason that many out there expect the CEP3 to be something else than you planning.

RE: fixes, you dont have to fix single model yourself. All you have to do is to set up updater again and allow peoples like me to upload any fixes they do in the CEP2 content. Hmm ok - so you will have to approve it and add it into the updater but thats something you can do once per week or once the sent files reach certain count. No need to wait for new version to use a fixed placeable or creature model don't you think?

[OldTimeRadio]

@Amethyst Dragon - Seems reasonable.  Thanks for taking this on!  

[Pstemarie]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

In regards to a "merger" with Project Q, my thought was only to offer an option for builders with the 2da files and such pre-merged.  Not including Project Q itself.  Probably going to just dump this from consideration, because it would have to be updated every time either Q or CEP gets updated to stay useable, and it could never be a great option (if people want to use both Q and CEP in their module, they likely have more content they want to merge files for anyway).

TAD, everything you wrote is a solid plan and I truly feel is the best way to proceed - it beneifts all stakeholders to some degree and doesn't leave anyone in the dust. All around it's a great compromise that will cement CEP's future and keep it viable. You've got my support.

This being said, I highlighted the above quote simply to say that I am greatly relieved that a CEP/Q Merge is off the table - for the time being. I am not willing to see Q merged with CEP, nor am I willing to change Q so that it is CEP compatible. What I am willing to do is work with you (and Andarian as he's done the CEP merger too - and if he's willing) to catalog the conflicting resources, making it easier for people that wish to come in and merge the two for their own use. This resource list could be maintained on both the Q site and the CEP site to make it highly visible for those that wish to use it.

[Tarot Redhand]

AD I seem to remember you saying something about keeping older versions of the 2da's. Have you considered using version control software for this? As 2da's are just plain text such software should be eminently suitable. If you do go down this route I would suggest some form of subversion such as TortoiseSVN.

TR 

[henesua]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

As far as totally changing the focus of CEP...I've never seen it as an "organization/group", nor as a "brand"...simply a collection of community-made content bundled together to make it easier for builders to access a large variety of stuff.

Instead of changing the focus of a project that has had the same focus since it's inception (what? a decade ago?), why not start up a new "umbrella organization" that would pick and choose what content to include and put out to the community?  Maybe call it "Committee for Improving NWN" or something along those lines.  There's still a few people working in the Academy of Modding Excellence, perhaps there's an untapped demand for an Academy of Content Excellence.

The purpose of starting up an umbrella organization that explicitly takes on the CEP mission is to reduce the workload of CEP projects so that CEP projects can be rolled out in manageable pieces rather than the monolithic mess that it is now. It is also an effort to get more people involved and to avoid the need to foment mutiny just to keep the CEP 2 project alive.

It doesn't make sense to start it as a new organization since it achieves its mission by providing support for the project you are working on. Providing this support without getting in your way I might add given how I structured it in those 5 proposals. The CEP 2 project would manage itself without interference by too large of a team or whatever. You would retain full control of it as you do now - with the exception that you no longer HAVE TO curate the files because the wider community would work out a means to ensure that the project and the documentation remain accessible to all. CEP 3 modules could then be defined in very manageable pieces and taken on individually, rather than trying to do it all at once which is why CEP 2 caused so much pain when it eclipsed rather than evolved from CEP 1. Each small piece of the CEP can then be worked on one by one and coordinated together.

Thats my purpose, and thats how its structured based on how I proposed it. My purpose is to learn from the mistakes of the past and solve them.

I respect your decision, TAD, thats fine. You don't have to be for this. But please avoid mischaracterizing something just because you disagree with or misunderstand it. My proposal doesn't have to happen of course, but would result in a reduced workload and the possibility that CEP is still supported and does something when you are gone. And it doesn't require you to do anything. It requires other people to step forward to take on the unfun tasks of documentation, managing the websites, vault entries etc.... And for this group of people to crreate a system so that the accounts to the content are held by a trusted person, but at the same time can't be held hostage by one person.

If this is not to happen. No problem. But better that people understand what they are turning down, rather than succomb to misinformation.

Modifié par henesua, 17 janvier 2014 - 02:44 .

[3RavensMore]

Pstemarie wrote...

What I am willing to do is work with you (and Andarian as he's done the CEP merger too - and if he's willing) to catalog the conflicting resources, making it easier for people that wish to come in and merge the two for their own use. This resource list could be maintained on both the Q site and the CEP site to make it highly visible for those that wish to use it.

Would love to see something like this.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

henesua wrote...

But please avoid mischaracterizing something just because you disagree with or misunderstand it.

My apologies, henesua.  I went back and reread your post from a day or two ago.  Evidently I should not ramble on at 2 am.

[KlatchainCoffee]

henesua wrote...

It requires other people to step forward to take on the unfun tasks of documentation, managing the websites, vault entries etc....

Documentation is key. It is highly desirable for CEP 2.5 and absolutely essential to a modular CEP 3 (should that ever come to pass).

Unless I am mistaken, it does not require as much technical know-how and thus I'd be quite happy to do some of the legwork related to this.

Incidenatally - it would be good to know if any is already in existence and what state it is in.


Also, in response to some of the posts further up - the creation of blueprints (and testing linked to that) is a good way of finding bugs.

Modifié par KlatchainCoffee, 17 janvier 2014 - 03:38 .

[henesua]

Pstemarie wrote...

What I am willing to do is work with you (and Andarian as he's done the CEP merger too - and if he's willing) to catalog the conflicting resources, making it easier for people that wish to come in and merge the two for their own use.

+1. I think thats a great project to take on. Didn't see it until 3Ravens highlighted. So thanks, 3Ravens.


The Amethyst Dragon - nothing to appologize for. We all know you are busy. I didn't mean to attack you. There are no hard feelings on my end. I just want the decision to be clear. There's been repeated claims that such an endeavor would be more work, and I needed to set that straight.


KC - you know my feelings on documentation. Glad to see others interested.

Modifié par henesua, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:36 .

[Pstemarie]

KlatchainCoffee wrote...

Incidenatally - it would be good to know if any is already in existence and what state it is in.

What documentation does exist is scattered on the various incarnations of the CEP forums and I would also chack Annoklia as, in its final years, CEP updates seem to have been driven by what was needed/wanted on that PW more than by anything else.

[QlippothVI]

Hey all,

I don't have a lot to contribute here, since I only dabble in module creation. I've assisted Deva Winblood (later including some small fixes on his works), and assisted in some small way new module creators by offering feedback or helping track down bugs in their modules.

I'm only chiming in because in the past I have offered to create projects for some builders on my bug tracking system and I'd be happy to do the same for this one. I use Mantis (Mantisbt.org), it is a very light weight but complete and useful bug tracking system that is connected to a mySQL database. Or if there is another system let me know, I've used many in my career. I have JIRA as well, but once you go over 10 users it is expensive, and I'm not sure you need all of those features. If the team is small enough I'd be happy to give most of those slots, I mainly use it to study JIRA and examine how I might do things with JIRA at work.
I am a QA Engineer by profession, and these tools are very familiar to me.
I could offer you an instance with its own database, and access to the DB to back up the project periodically (or I can do that, but people like their own access just in case). I can also assist you in how to use this tool and (if desirable) basic testing principles.

I have two VPS servers in Canada, one has about 8GB of free disk space, and my other server has about 50GB of space, though it sounds like you have file space covered by NWV.org. The smaller one hosts the Castle Defense module for some people that still play it.
I might also be able to set up an SVN, or have someone else who knows how to do so on my server. I've only used SVN through the GUI on Windows, and git in unix.

I would also mirror the bug base data and instance to my backup server (under my desk at home) to make sure if anything goes wrong you can still access your data (same login, bugs, etc, slightly different URL, maybe a few days old).
Anyway, I'm looking to contribute to this thing called Neverwinter Nights, since I'm not sure what I would do in my free time without it. 


 - Qlippoth

Modifié par QlippothVI, 18 janvier 2014 - 07:35 .

[Bannor Bloodfist]

Mantis is a great, absolutely GREAT system. I hope that the team here will accept your offer and use it. Tracking bugs is the only way to fix them. You can't fix what you don't know is broken unless you stumble across the bug while doing something else etc.

CTP used Mantis for as long as we had a host willing to provide the db for us. When that member left the team, we lost the mantis. We had it setup so that you could actually go into any given area in our test mods, and click a button to get a report auto-generated, that would also ask you to add notes, then port that information directly from in game out to the mantis system... man what a pleasure it was to use that type of system!

[henesua]

Those are great offers, QlippothVI

[Pstemarie]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Mantis is a great, absolutely GREAT system.

That's what it was called - I couldn't remember for sure. Thanks, Bannor! I'll have to look into that for my own stuff.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Mantis sounds interesting. I have no experience with such a system, but if it's really easy to set up and easy for multiple people (who likely have no training) to work with, I don't see why it couldn't be of use.

As far as documentation goes, something I would really like to see (kind of wishful thinking here), is for the ability to have a set of online tables for each of the major 2da files (appearance, placeables, visualeffects) from CEP that has options for adding URLs of the (old/new) Vault entries where content originated from, and after adding said URLs, being able to just click on them to open a new tab/window to go to that page (to make voting on the stuff easier).  I know, I know, people very rarely vote anymore, but I think the option of making it easier would be nice.

I do plan on adding a new column or two to each of those 2da files for "creator" and "source", to both give credit and have a reference for the origin when we have that information. Adding columns to the right side of the tables doesn't interfere with their function.

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:25 .

[henesua]

Amethyst Dragon, thats a good idea.

Regarding 2da extension, something I have done so as not to make it more difficult to DIF a 2da file is to add extensions to it in a separate 2da file. Basically I copy the 2da file, and save as the same name with _x at the end.
Then I wipe out every column except for the name and the index. After that I add on whatever columns I want. Its a little more work, but maintains compatibility with other 2DAs no matter what another user might do with them.

[MerricksDad]

henesua wrote...

Amethyst Dragon, thats a good idea.

I second that

henesua wrote...

Regarding 2da extension, something I have done so as not to make it more difficult to DIF a 2da file is to add extensions to it in a separate 2da file. Basically I copy the 2da file, and save as the same name with _x at the end.
Then I wipe out every column except for the name and the index. After that I add on whatever columns I want. Its a little more work, but maintains compatibility with other 2DAs no matter what another user might do with them.

I'd doing that right now for the 4E mod

[QlippothVI]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Mantis is a great, absolutely GREAT system. I hope that the team here will accept your offer and use it. Tracking bugs is the only way to fix them. You can't fix what you don't know is broken unless you stumble across the bug while doing something else etc.

CTP used Mantis for as long as we had a host willing to provide the db for us. When that member left the team, we lost the mantis. We had it setup so that you could actually go into any given area in our test mods, and click a button to get a report auto-generated, that would also ask you to add notes, then port that information directly from in game out to the mantis system... man what a pleasure it was to use that type of system!

1. Button in-game: That sounds awesome, alas, I would not know how to hook that up without more info. Can you embed a URL in a module that would launch your browser? Did you click a placeable?

2. Your Mantis gone: Was there a backup of the Mantis bugbase? I could import it into mine.

If anyone is interested send me a PM. Even if you just want to take a look and see how it is used, I can show you Deva's old projects.

I can create a Project in minutes and it is WAY easier to work on and track who is fixing what in Mantis than a non-bug tracker system. A bug can always be assigned to someone so you can track who is working on it, people's notes about the issue, even discussions, though I would do most discussing outside of Mantis. Mantis is for facts or observations, screenshots illustrating the bug, files related to the bug, etc.


 - Qlippoth

[Bannor Bloodfist]

Going to answer backwards:

2) there was a backup years ago, it is gone now, and no real loss as there is no-one left on that team except me, and I am not doing anymore work on those sets at this time.

1) It was a scripted bug reporting system, direct sql links to the db. We had a hidden placeable on every single tile (programmatically inserted) that gave us the location of the individual area and tile position within that area. Once the report was started by using a wand to cast a spell, it would open a dialog where you could place basic info, and finally add specific notes... it was limited in space... something similar to the twitter limit of 144 chars, but I think ours was a bit longer than that. That hidden placeable gave us the ability to locate the actual bug, up to and including directional facing, so you could paint the bug reporting arrow down, and go back to find it, in game, on the testing pw. There was no need for backwards reporting, IE, we only generated the bug report in game, the rest of the management side of it was handled in the normal Mantis fashion.

What made it most useful was the drop-down style dialogs when you entered the bug report, you could choose from predefined basic types, IE, missing texture, or hole in the ground or whatever the various types were we had setup. Multiple choices were a godsend and by basically forcing the player to choose from a select type of listing of bugs, the bug reports were more accurate, and more easily fixed.

OMB created the wand, and he also created a set of scripts that I would run from within open office. I would have to export the .are, .git etc, convert them to xml (there is an OLD tool still available for that on the vault) run the scripts in open office that scanned the data and auto-inserted the hidden tracking object, then convert back from xml to .are, .git etc, and reload the module. Always had to remember to perform those steps if I added or changed anything in the testing areas. OMB also created a separate set of scripts that would cross check the individual tiles that were painted against the full tile-set.set file to help me insure that I had every possible tile painted at least once in the module. That took hours of toolset painting, but the scripts themselves were fast and accurate. I don't think I have a saved set of any of that though.

[TheExcimer-500]

It's been a long time... As I've noticed a few comments about older CEP team members that might have an issue with this; I just thought I'd chime in and give Amethyst Dragon my full approval to use the content I added/revised in previous CEP versions towards updating CEP and/or creating CEPv3. (I cannot speak for other members of the old CEP team). Good luck & thank you.