423 réponses à ce sujet

[OldTimeRadio]

I'm not certain how all this will resolve itself but I suspect it's likely to be something where The Amethyst Dragon makes a hak or haks which sit on top of an existing CEP 2.4a installation.  If this is the case, it may not go far enough for some people who believe that CEP needs to be reforged or altered in some, more considerable, way.

This message is for those people and, hopefully, will allay some of the concerns they might have and also explain why I think a less-elaborate approach is probably going to be the easiest, most beneficial and have the highest chance of actually getting done.

While he didn't have much of a forum presence and kept a relatively low profile, Acaos of Higher Ground joined CEP team sometime between 2.0 and 2.1. He set himself to the task of making CEP run as smoothy as possible and that involved almost single handedly going over the entirety of CEP 2.0 content and searching for errors, primarily model compilation errors, and fixing them. This also extended to many other areas, like fixing PWKs/WOKs and a whole host of other things. Sometimes writing custom made programs or using existing programs, like OldMansBeard's CleanModels, to assist him in this process.

He was an exceptionally talented person, maybe the perfect person, for such a task. Anyone who's seen his work on HG, used NWN Explorer Reborn, used the model compiler/decompiler in it, Erf Tool Reborn (used for the CEP updater) or used any of his NWNX plugins would probably agree.  The guy had mad skills and the drive to carry tasks through to completion.

Now, people who interacted with a certain member or members of CEP might have come away with a rather dim view of them and made inferrences about the quality of of CEP based on those poor interactions.  These inferences, while natural, could be very misleading.

But behind the scenes, from CEP 2.1 to 2.3 (and a little beyond, IIRC), the actual CEP content was being expertly maintained, for the most part. While CEP 2.4/2.4a were released (to my knowledge) without Acaos's assitance, I have every indication that his prior work was not altered or reverted, but added to.

I was lucky enough to speak with Acaos about this on occasion and even inspect his build setup myself (he built new versions of CEP, from scratch, on demand, using a mostly-automated process), which was more complex than any suggested in this thread so far, and involved SVN.  By the time CEP 2.3 rolled out the doors, was it perfect?  No.  But, overall, it was in far better shape than most people would guess and pretty damned tight.

On a related note, sometimes why something is in CEP (like the duplicate textures Tiberius_Morguhn mentioned) can be a bit puzzling.  I brought up almost that exact issue to Acaos and he explained that the reason they were not removed was because CEP did not want to inadvertently break content which might rely on those textures.

Anyway. I tend to agree with Pstemarie's comments about the likelihood that The Amethyst Dragon will wind up doing much of this himself.  I think SVN was the right tool for Acaos based on his task (and the mammoth amount of content added from CEP 2.1->2.3) but I do not think it's necessary for the project at this stage in CEP's life. 

If anything, I think it will get in the way of a workflow which Amethyst Dragon already has down quite well, which he uses to compile the monthly CCC.

It is possible for a thing to be overarchitcted to the point of failure.  That should be avoided.  CEP is a combination of a Swiss Army knife and the Winchester House.  Reverse-rearchitecting such a thing at this point is not the recipe for a good time, IMO.

[omen_shepperd]

I have been wondering what was ever going to become of the CEP. AD I for one applaud you on your willingness to further our community more so than you already have. While I don’t have the skills to be able to add to your team or to even assist in getting the project done faster. I support your efforts and will mention this on the facebook community page.

I have seen many of the enhancements you have given to the community, and I am anxious to see what you are able to do with the CEP.

Thank you Amethyst Dragon for all your devotion to the community.

[QlippothVI]

Firstly, yes, thank you, TAD for all your work in the community. They are greatly enjoyed (even if you are not always appreciated) by all.

I'm only going to throw out one more thing (no one want to use my bugbase?), and that is:

Can we fix the gates and doors that don't have proper close animations? Or is this the wrong place to ask for such a fix? Maybe that should be an override or patch or something. Some of the Dwarves have strangely sized thighs, as well (which has been bugging me since before we released the gold master for the game).

ANYway, I was trying to create a module where gates can be destroyed (not really, just using the animations for their destruction) and repaired (by using the close animation). So the gate can be "destroyed", then "replaced" or repaired, as it were.
The issue is not all of the gates have proper close animations. If the player is far enough away where the gate is not drawn, then the player gets close enough to the gate for it to be rendered again it will show properly. So if you repair a gate, but are close enough that this bug occurs:

• You will not be able to pass the gate (invisible, but closed).
• The area on which a player can click is miniscule and nearly imposible to operate.
• Workaround: Run far enough away the gate will no longer be rendered, then return and the gate is fine again (for that player).

I was using "Sir Elric's Respawning Doors v1.1": http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=3020

Proleric a long while back said, "Apparently many of the larger gates do not have the animation needed to replace the gate graphic while the player is watching. This needs to be fixed in the model."

I used about every gate in the Castle Exterior there is. All of the normal doors are fine, I suspect that any gate that has no "DoorCloseAnim" might have this issue. The bridge door is good also. I have not tested this for a few years, so do not know if this issue is apparent in other tilesets (or is a door independant of the tileset used?).

- Qlippoth 

Modifié par QlippothVI, 25 janvier 2014 - 07:38 .

[MerricksDad]

I should probably leave this thread, because it is not like I have a moment of time to spend on actually doing anything for CEP, except on accident....but...

Instead of a CEP, what we really need is a system by which builders apply for a range of TLK and/or shared 2DA lines for their project, thereby allowing every package to fit within the CEP realm without stepping on feet. I know that comes across sounding simple, but it really is that simple. The hard part is actually maintaining a group that manages such a list.

Here's what you'd do:
1) grant a range of CEP TLK on request
2) grant a range to bioware-stock 2DA files on request
3) insert object placeholder models (just a dummy on a base) into the CEP hosted base hak (for each model required by builder's custom content).
4) content builder releases a CEP-ready package which sits on top of the CEP base hak and overrides the placeholder models.
5) content builder does not even need to package copies of their overrides for bioware-stock 2DA's because the CEP hak already contains all that data.
6) and CEP team does not need to host the builder's CEP-ready content, or otherwise package it, unless they feel like putting out quarterlies, or some other interval of standard release.

Personally, and I think I already mentioned this in this thread, I don't use CEP. I use parts of CEP. But if I was ever to release stuff that I wanted to fit with a larger CEP package, I would love to simply apply for a set of indices and go from there. Release my content already knowing that the current CEP release has a slot for my additions.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, I believe that is how some of the Sims community content worked.

So, as I would imagine it, a builder would submit a finished copy of their content. The CEP quartermaster would issue a range of indices in specific files, no more and no less than needed. No holding seats. If the builder needs more indices later, they apply for more so their additional content can be fitted to CEP.

Basically this allows a lot of people to work together very smoothly and offer a great deal of variety with little to no fuss at all.

So here is a little rundown of CEP jobs that would be created:

Index Manager: manages TLK and bioware-stock 2DA lines. This guy adds all the 2DA lines and TLK lines supplied by applicants to all bioware stock 2DA files. If the group works on tilesets, he's also be in charge of set file tile and group indices and would update set files to include applicant tiles in the proper sets.

Texture Manager: manages the texture stack so users know which textures come from which other builder's packages. This prevents texture duplication in the HAK stack, as well as creates a "#Requires" list that other builders can make use of. For instance, if I made a bunch of golems that require a previous builder's textures for my bodies, I could either make it clear that my HAK required the other HAK to be in the stack, or I could reissue the textures and risk making the overhead larger if the person already uses the other CEP-ready HAK.

Model Manager: Since this guy won't actually be working with the actual CEP-ready models, his job is much easier. All he has to do is provide a file with a dummy model for every appearance, placeable, or effect in the game (anything that calls a model). This guy might also manage portrait dummies for those entries as well. Since the file size is miniscule, and most are not loaded for use except in the toolset, the overhead created by this HAK is minimal.

Volume Team: Like a magazine team, this team packages a single download for all CEP-ready content up to the release date. CEP could release something quarterly, monthly, or just yearly if it feels lazy, or if there is jack for new content in a period. All the 2da and TLK work would have already been done by the index manager. All they'd have to do is pack all the new hak files into a single archive and release that volume as an addition to previous archive set, and then package a second archive including every single hak to date. That gives the user two ways to go, but supplies the exact same files.

So the best part of this system would be that nobody ever overrides another hak, unless that is intentional, in which case the overriding hack needs to be noted as such a type and be near the top of the stack. Again, since there would only ever be one variety of any given 2DA, TLK, or SET, and it would be on the very bottom in a file full of dummies, it would be impossible to step on any toes or get lost in the ordering scheme. And again, that is because every single hak above the CEP base files would work no matter their order, except as mentioned where a hak purposely overwrites something, which should be extremely rare to non-existent. As far as I can see, this method gives a perfectly modular project where every piece is optional except the base package of well managed 2da/talk/set files and the model and texture dummies package.

Anyway, I feel like I am rambling a bit now, so I need to go eat. If anybody has any comments on this method of creating such a project, even if it does not take on the CEP name, PM me and lets talk.

[Winterhawk99]

Good luck for all those involved. All I have to say really

[FunkySwerve]

OldTimeRadio wrote...

While he didn't have much of a forum presence and kept a relatively low profile, Acaos of Higher Ground joined CEP team sometime between 2.0 and 2.1. He set himself to the task of making CEP run as smoothy as possible and that involved almost single handedly going over the entirety of CEP 2.0 content and searching for errors, primarily model compilation errors, and fixing them. This also extended to many other areas, like fixing PWKs/WOKs and a whole host of other things. Sometimes writing custom made programs or using existing programs, like OldMansBeard's CleanModels, to assist him in this process.

He was an exceptionally talented person, maybe the perfect person, for such a task. Anyone who's seen his work on HG, used NWN Explorer Reborn, used the model compiler/decompiler in it, Erf Tool Reborn (used for the CEP updater) or used any of his NWNX plugins would probably agree.  The guy had mad skills and the drive to carry tasks through to completion.

Now, people who interacted with a certain member or members of CEP might have come away with a rather dim view of them and made inferrences about the quality of of CEP based on those poor interactions.  These inferences, while natural, could be very misleading.

But behind the scenes, from CEP 2.1 to 2.3 (and a little beyond, IIRC), the actual CEP content was being expertly maintained, for the most part. While CEP 2.4/2.4a were released (to my knowledge) without Acaos's assitance, I have every indication that his prior work was not altered or reverted, but added to.

I was lucky enough to speak with Acaos about this on occasion and even inspect his build setup myself (he built new versions of CEP, from scratch, on demand, using a mostly-automated process), which was more complex than any suggested in this thread so far, and involved SVN.  By the time CEP 2.3 rolled out the doors, was it perfect?  No.  But, overall, it was in far better shape than most people would guess and pretty damned tight.

I'm going to link Acaos this post, in case his ears aren't already burning. I'm also going to speak to him about picking back up the updater, or something like it, as it's a sine qua non for me to use later CEP updates - our custom HG updater relies on it. I sent TAD a friend request to discuss working on something using that sort of updater, which is very similar to the SVN repo we use on HG. Acaos is too busy these days to run it himself, but, with a bit of his assistance, I could do it in his stead.

Funky

[Proleric]

MerricksDad and others have touched on the possibility of a self-service framework in which content makers can reserve lines and achieve compatibility independently. I find this attractive. The Dragon Age community established that it doesn't even need much administration,just a public wiki with guidance. A significant benefit it that it is easy for newcomers to join in.

Happy to help with a more centralised approach, though, as long as it's reasonably open.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Just a minor progress update on my end.

I'm going to go with "CEP 2.60" for the name of the next update.  Yeah, not just 2.6, because I do plan on smaller updates later that won't warrant a whole tenth.

So far (as in, just this afternoon) I have pulled all of the 2da files from the existing cep2_topv24.hak file and brought them into the Excel file I use for editing 2da files.

I also edited the line for the brownie dynamic appearance to change the weapon and tail scaling slightly, then copied the brownies' riding phenotype files and brownies' expanded robes that I made way back for the July 2012 CCC, placing them into a "content additions" folder.

I'm marking any 2da changes from 2.4 to 2.60 with colored rows, so that I can easily go through them when it's time to publish and make a list of exactly which 2da lines are added or changed.  Documentation, y'all!   Make it easier for others to update their own haks if they combine CEP with their own collections (like I do).

So, yeah, some minor progress, even if I've been distracted the entire last week by "real life" (things like raising kids and brainstorming on something to do to celebrate International TableTop Day) and by the obsession with making new stuff for my PW that came from forcing myself to not open gmax for a week.



On a semi-related-to-CEP note, this week I edited my own copy of appearance.2da to clean up the model list in the toolset.  Between BioWare, CEP, Project Q, and my own stuff, the list was getting really full, and a lot of things were still in there that I'll never use.  Any models that I knew I'd never use (including some of the original BioWare appearances and a bunch of older ones from the CEP), I simply replaced the appearance names with ****.  Eliminates them from the toolset view, without having to actually erase every single full line I'm not currently using, making searching for appearances I do like much faster.  Not erasing the lines completely means I still have a reference if I want to go looking for a model to use as a basis for something new.  I really started just to get rid of the stone giant appearances that I've never liked or used, then got carried away until I'd gone through the entire list in the toolset (to see the models) and 2da (to make the edits).

And, since I color-code the rows in my personal edits of 2da files, it makes it easier for me to find "holes" were I can fill in newer content later.  Quickly scroll 'til I hit a white row, and I know I can use that one without conflicting with something I'm already using.

This might be a handy option for those builders that want to use some of the content found in the CEP, but don't feel like constantly scrolling through a bunch of appearances they'll never use.

[Killmonger]

Thank you Amethyst Dragon....
Your clarity upon this thread is most heartening...
Gary would smile...

[Zarathustra217]

AD, can one assume that the files in the current 2.4 are the most up to date? I am contemplating to begin running through placeable files to fix various issues. If we can somehow begin to organize the collaborate effort, I will also try to mobilize the creative talents in our PW community.

Or perhaps such questions/planning belong on the wikia page? Rest assured though, you need not worry about being on your own with this :-)

[The Amethyst Dragon]

CEP 2.4 is the most up to date version available. Evidently there was going to be a version 2.5 (with my CCC brownie additions and a bunch of new doors), but that never materialized.

I'm currently running all of the converted-from-NWN2 placeable models through CleanModels 3.5 to fix errors and correct the ambient/diffuse lighting. Currently done: 179 of 967. Evidently some of these models have a lot of errors that are getting corrected...I've noticed in the log window that one of the church models had over 13k errors fixed!

I made a note on the CEP2 Fixes page (on the wiki) that I was running those placeables for those fixes. Thanks for noting them on there.

If anyone wants to start listing other content (models, textures, scripts, etc.) that needs fixing, that'll be very helpful for myself and for anyone else that wants to get things going. If you can be as specific as possible about what needs to be fixed, it would be great (file names would be awesome so that we can just use NWN Explorer Reborn to find them).

You can also use the wiki (or the CEP forum) to give suggestions on newer content that could be added. Just include the title and project/Vault URL, so the rest of us can easily find it to a) give our thoughts on the addition and contact the creator to get permission to include it.

Edit: Wow.  I thought maybe the CleanModels program had frozen up on me, but I decided to just ignore it while I posted here.  Nope.  It just took a long time to work through one model to fix 68,388 errors.

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 26 janvier 2014 - 03:52 .

[Pstemarie]

TAD, the Skeletal Horses in CEP need to be replaced with the updated models from Q. Not sure Barry1066 ever got to that even though I sent him the models. The ones CEP got from Draygoth are outdated and may have shadow/rendering issues.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 26 janvier 2014 - 08:24 .

[Shadooow]

Forget about trolls, who will never use CEP, and their suggestion. Do CEP for those who use it that is my advice. I like the project idea and I supported it till CEP2 happened when as many of you might remember I started criticing the CEP2 as a whole. I was perhaps too displeasing but I wont apologize, since three years later most of you found out I had right. Im still using CEP1 though. But since CEP2 effectively cut off CEP1 support and these days more and more players have CEP2 but not CEP1 I very recently switched the the custom haks melding CEP1 content in them.

Really, its already too late to change CEP2, this could have been done from the start if anyone listened, but in this time the majority of a servers is using CEP2 and any single file removed from CEP2 now would broke them. There wont be any CEP3 because this majority of CEP2 users is just not willing to add something that will mess their worlds and could cause another crashing or other issues. All you can do is just to add more and more content hoping this will improve the CEP2 usefullness for builders that so far didnt used it for whatever reason. And most of these builders already worked out their personal solution so why bother.

[3RavensMore]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...
....and make a list of exactly which 2da lines are added or changed.  Documentation, y'al.

Thank you! 

[TheOneBlackRider]

Since we are using CEP, I just want to say "THANK YOU" to all, who get involved here and further the CEP-Project.

[Zwerkules]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

CEP 2.4 is the most up to date version available. Evidently there was going to be a version 2.5 (with my CCC brownie additions and a bunch of new doors), but that never materialized.

I'm currently running all of the converted-from-NWN2 placeable models through CleanModels 3.5 to fix errors and correct the ambient/diffuse lighting. Currently done: 179 of 967. Evidently some of these models have a lot of errors that are getting corrected...I've noticed in the log window that one of the church models had over 13k errors fixed!

I made a note on the CEP2 Fixes page (on the wiki) that I was running those placeables for those fixes. Thanks for noting them on there.

If anyone wants to start listing other content (models, textures, scripts, etc.) that needs fixing, that'll be very helpful for myself and for anyone else that wants to get things going. If you can be as specific as possible about what needs to be fixed, it would be great (file names would be awesome so that we can just use NWN Explorer Reborn to find them).

You can also use the wiki (or the CEP forum) to give suggestions on newer content that could be added. Just include the title and project/Vault URL, so the rest of us can easily find it to a) give our thoughts on the addition and contact the creator to get permission to include it.

Edit: Wow.  I thought maybe the CleanModels program had frozen up on me, but I decided to just ignore it while I posted here.  Nope.  It just took a long time to work through one model to fix 68,388 errors.

Some of the NWN2 models have gaps or parts missing or in the wrong place. The easiest way to fix those is to convert them from NWN2 again. If you need help with the houses I can convert those models from NWN2. Most of the Mulsantir houses have missing parts. Housermb4 has parts of the roof missing. Housermb11 has double meshes. TheGeorge also used the wrong textures. He always used the tintable ones which lack all colour, but people have used them the way they are, so fixing that may break modules which depend on those houses lacking all colour.
There are also some unfinished house models in NWN2. I've finished those.

[Pstemarie]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Forget about trolls, who will never use CEP, and their suggestion...

If this was directed at me, TAD asked a question and I stated a fact. The skeletal horse models in CEP are an earlier version of what was eventually included in Project Q. They were pulled into CEP when they added Draygoth's mounts to the package. The Q version have some geometry tweaks that are not included in the CEP version and have been run through CM3.

Frankly, I could care less if he includes them, but I would be remiss to the creator of 90% of the original model - Sixesthrice - and TAD if I didn't point out that a more up to date version exists that doesn't require fixing.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 26 janvier 2014 - 08:41 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

And, after running for about 11 hours, CleanModels finished with the NWN2 placeables.  This was at the end of the log:
"Total Fixes = 3165948"

Zwerkules wrote...

Some of the NWN2 models have gaps or parts missing or in the wrong place. The easiest way to fix those is to convert them from NWN2 again. If you need help with the houses I can convert those models from NWN2. Most of the Mulsantir houses have missing parts. Housermb4 has parts of the roof missing. Housermb11 has double meshes. TheGeorge also used the wrong textures. He always used the tintable ones which lack all colour, but people have used them the way they are, so fixing that may break modules which depend on those houses lacking all colour.
There are also some unfinished house models in NWN2. I've finished those.

Well, crap.

So...if anyone has access to NWN2 (I've never owned it, since it won't run well on my computer) and were to re-convert those 967 models for NWN, I could do another CleanModels run on them once they're finished.

I'll put the version I've got already into a "working, but could be updated (more)" folder for now.

And if there are more NWN2 houses or whatever that would fit nicely in NWN...

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 27 janvier 2014 - 03:03 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

I've added a few polls to a new page on the wiki, so community members can show their opinions on some content that is both publicly available and which the CEP has already been given permission to use.

Pstemarie, I'll grab those updated skeletal horse models out of the q_creatures hak soon, since you're offering them up.

Also, if anyone wants to start filling in information on the page I added for older editions of CEP, that'd be great.  We (well, I, maybe others) really would like to have a single page to get links for the 1.x versions, what patch level of NWN is required for them, and links to any modifications to bring them up to date with NWN 1.69 (if they exist).  Links for the 2.0 to 2.4 versions are also welcome, but those are easy enought ot find already).

Don't worry too much about page formatting on the wiki, I'll get around to making it nicer if need be.

[Zarathustra217]

It all looks great AD, and I'm glad to hear you've already undertaken the NWN2 model updates.

One other thing I've been thinking about whether people feel would be an appropriate way to update the CEP is by improving current sub-par content, either by doing enhancements to the models or by replacing them with better versions altogether. The most frequent criticism I recall hearing about the current CEP is the amount of superfluous or poor quality content, so to me it would be an obvious choice to also work on making this content more usable.

An example could be the current camel models in the CEP that looks like this:



Perhaps we could ask Draygoth if we could be permitted to use the one he showed here:



Any thoughts on this approach? Should we add a content overhaul/replacement section to the wiki page too?

Modifié par Zarathustra217, 27 janvier 2014 - 08:41 .

[Pstemarie]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

And, after running for about 11 hours, CleanModels finished with the NWN2 placeables.  This was at the end of the log:

"Total Fixes = 3165948"

You should have seen the total when I ran Sigil through CM3. It didn't take 11 hours, but the count was enormous. Its not uncommon to see that many errors. You are far better off to run CM3 operations in clusters, focusing on specific issues in each pass. For example, on the first pass, snap bitmaps and weld tverts; on the second pass, fix shadows; etc. Sometimes, if you do too many operations at the same time, CM3 will choke on a model that has numerous issues and may even not be able to export it.

In any event, OMB is the real expert on CM3. Use his guide, and you shouldn't have any real issues.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 27 janvier 2014 - 01:47 .

[Alassirana]

I have what will probably be a slightly odd request on this, but it is coming from a player/builder who focuses heavily on pvm, so please keep that in mind. Currently you are supposedly *required* to have the cep_crp_s hak in a cep installation. Such a hak actually consistently interferes with other scripts I'm using, and makes things not compile because of some of the alterations it makes. Please make it possible to not have *anything* from crp if you don't want it, as CRP is not always wanted, and making it a requirement is onerous for people of different playing styles.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Alassirana wrote...

I have what will probably be a slightly odd request on this, but it is coming from a player/builder who focuses heavily on pvm, so please keep that in mind. Currently you are supposedly *required* to have the cep_crp_s hak in a cep installation. Such a hak actually consistently interferes with other scripts I'm using, and makes things not compile because of some of the alterations it makes. Please make it possible to not have *anything* from crp if you don't want it, as CRP is not always wanted, and making it a requirement is onerous for people of different playing styles.

That doesn't sound like an odd request to me.

cep2_crp_s.hak is already an optional hak.  I been using CEP for years, and i've never used that one.

This list shows what's currently (as of version 2.4) required and what's optional.

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 27 janvier 2014 - 03:12 .

[Zarathustra217]

By the way, don't be too careless using CleanModels - I've often experienced it causing new errors in the models with the default settings. At the very least, some posterior in-game checking is necessary.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Zarathustra217 wrote...

By the way, don't be too careless using CleanModels - I've often experienced it causing new errors in the models with the default settings. At the very least, some posterior in-game checking is necessary.

Oh, yes, definitely.  I noticed that one time when running a new displacer beast through it...CleanModels turned it's nice spherical glowing eyes into lumpy raisins.