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[dreamgazer]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm starting to thnk that the SM was a huge mistake.

Not a huge mistake, just dropped in at the wrong time.  

It would've been a great way to end the trilogy, instead of forcing ME3 to work around all the potential deaths.

[Sion1138]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...
Shepard is not your character, you have no control over their definition and this is not a role-playing game.

I didn't care about the kid. Nobody cared.

By definition you can't control your subconscious. It doesn't even matter if you didn't care about the kid because in the game he functions as a symbol for everyone else in the galaxy that is dying. If your Shepard doesn't care about that then I have no sympathy for the way you role-play your Shepard. It sounds super boring.

It's not just the subconscious aspect, is it? How about the conversation with Garrus where a choice of "I understand." in response to his lamentations about war results in your character talking about the boy back on Earth.

What about the conversation with Anderson at the very beginning of the game? 

"I'm a soldier Anderson, I'm no politician." - That's a major statement of character, forced on the player.

I don't care whether you sympathize or not, the point is whether one can or can not role-play. You should be able to realize your own version of the character. It's not that difficult and it doesn't require any extra effort, simply that you leave the choice of character statements to the player.

[AlanC9]

dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm starting to thnk that the SM was a huge mistake.

Not a huge mistake, just dropped in at the wrong time.  

It would've been a great way to end the trilogy, instead of forcing ME3 to work around all the potential deaths.

True.

Note that the SM was relatively cheap. The death scenes don't care which squadmate is in them, since everybody uses the same animations, and getting someone killed has no particular consquences. The hypothetical final missions people talk about wanting for ME3 generally turn out to be fairly costly relative to the SM, let alone P:E.

[AlanC9]

Sion1138 wrote...

"I'm a soldier Anderson, I'm no politician." - That's a major statement of character, forced on the player.

Are there versions of Shepard who are politicians?

[CronoDragoon]

Sion1138 wrote...
It's not just the subconscious aspect, is it? How about the conversation with Garrus where a choice of "I understand." in response to his lamentations about war results in your character talking about the boy back on Earth.

I'll give you that one. Shepard probably should have talked about the losses he's experienced in general and allowed the player to fill in the gaps with whatever personally affected the player.

What about the conversation with Anderson at the very beginning of the game? 

"I'm a soldier Anderson, I'm no politician." - That's a major statement of character, forced on the player.

But completely consistent with any Shepard's characterization in the series.

I don't care whether you sympathize or not, the point is whether one can or can not role-play. You should be able to realize your own version of the character. It's not that difficult and it doesn't require any extra effort, simply that you leave the choice of character statements to the player.

It's not that difficult? Really? What if I told you I hated ME1 Shepard because he didn't feel like a character at all to me? What if my version of Shepard doesn't like sound a cardboard box moron that literally repeats verbatum what someone else just said, which happens more than a few times in ME1 and ME2?

How about Shepard saying in ME1 that "you're just a machine, and machines can be broken"? Sounds like a pretty big character statement to me, and oh-by-the-way it's the same dialogue for Paragon and Renegade. We're at the point now where everyone conveniently forgets ME1 and ME2's limitations while blowing ME3's out of proportion. If you want to lament the instances in ME3 where you felt the characterization was forced, then by all means do so. But allowing the player to completely control Shepard's characterization was not and never will be possible.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:42 .

[Sion1138]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

"I'm a soldier Anderson, I'm no politician." - That's a major statement of character, forced on the player.

Are there versions of Shepard who are politicians?

It's the context. He basically says: "I don't know anything, I just shoot things."

Err... We fight or we die. That's the plan!

Modifié par Sion1138, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:56 .

[Sion1138]

CronoDragoon wrote...

It's not that difficult? Really? What if I told you I hated ME1 Shepard because he didn't feel like a character at all to me? What if my version of Shepard doesn't like sound a cardboard box moron that literally repeats verbatum what someone else just said, which happens more than a few times in ME1 and ME2?

How about Shepard saying in ME1 that "you're just a machine, and machines can be broken"? Sounds like a pretty big character statement to me, and oh-by-the-way it's the same dialogue for Paragon and Renegade. We're at the point now where everyone conveniently forgets ME1 and ME2's limitations while blowing ME3's out of proportion. If you want to lament the instances in ME3 where you felt the characterization was forced, then by all means do so. But allowing the player to completely control Shepard's characterization was not and never will be possible.

What if I told you that in a role-playing game, it's up to you to fill in the blanks of who your character is?

You'd probably be one of those who would say, in response to criticism over the ambiguity of their character's fate and the general ambiguity of the ending to the game, to engage in "head-canon". 

And yet it's not acceptable to head-canon the nuances of your character.

Also, I never said that Mass Effect 1 didn't suffer from the same, but it was so to a much lesser extent.

Modifié par Sion1138, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:55 .

[CronoDragoon]

Sion1138 wrote...
What if I told you that in a role-playing game, it's up to you to fill in the blanks of who your character is?

Without proper methods to express these nuances in-game, I'd say that's worthless, and you're better off playing table-top games.

You'd probably be one of those who would say, in response to criticism over the ambiguity of their character's fate and the general ambiguity of the ending to the game, to engage in "head-canon".

There's no headcanon needed. Shepard survives, and that is clear, both by the placement of the breath scene, and by statements made by BW employees that made the EC. The statement by BW at a panel that "maybe it's Shepard's last breath" was a light-hearted troll of the audience, made obvious by the video. Not so obvious reading about it in some post by a disgruntled fan on the BSN.

Also, I never said that Mass Effect 1 didn't suffer from the same, but it was so to a much lesser extent.

"Much" is relative. Mass Effect 1 may have given you more freedom to headcanon your character, but it did this by designating dialogue responses as bland, short, wooden responses with no subtlety, wit, or character. Mass Effect 3 does dialogue much better, but at the cost of dialogue options. Hopefully we can agree that the ideal for ME4 to strive for is a middle ground between range of choice and choices actually worth picking.

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's no headcanon needed. Shepard survives, and that is clear, both by the placement of the breath scene, and by statements made by BW employees that made the EC. The statement by BW at a panel that "maybe it's Shepard's last breath" was a light-hearted troll of the audience, made obvious by the video. Not so obvious reading about it in some post by a disgruntled fan on the BSN.

It doesn't help that there's an awful lot of dishonesty on the BSN when describing the scene. A lot of people who know better talk about Shepard lying in rubble forever, or similar nonsense.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 janvier 2014 - 05:21 .

[Sion1138]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...
What if I told you that in a role-playing game, it's up to you to fill in the blanks of who your character is?

Without proper methods to express these nuances in-game, I'd say that's worthless, and you're better off playing table-top games.

Or Knights of The Old Republic or Dragon Age or Jade Empire or Neverwinter Nights or Mass Effect...

[CronoDragoon]

Sion1138 wrote...

Or Knights of The Old Republic or Dragon Age or Jade Empire or Neverwinter Nights or Mass Effect...

Do those games fill in the blanks for you or not? You suggested Mass Effect does not and that this is the player's job.

[AlanC9]

Sion1138 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...
"I'm a soldier Anderson, I'm no politician." - That's a major statement of character, forced on the player.

Are there versions of Shepard who are politicians?

It's the context. He basically says: "I don't know anything, I just shoot things."

I don't recall the context too well. What should Shepard have said?

Err... We fight or we die. That's the plan!

It's not like Shepard actually has a plan there. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

[Sion1138]

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's no headcanon needed. Shepard survives, and that is clear, both by the placement of the breath scene, and by statements made by BW employees that made the EC. The statement by BW at a panel that "maybe it's Shepard's last breath" was a light-hearted troll of the audience, made obvious by the video. Not so obvious reading about it in some post by a disgruntled fan on the BSN.

It doesn't help that there's an awful lot of dishonesty on the BSN when describing the scene. A lot of people who know better talk about Shepard lying in rubble forever, or similar nonsense.

In my playthrough that scenario didn't seem possible. I didn't do much multi-player and every possible fetch quest.

Cured the Krogan, saved both geth and Quarian but I didn't get the Banner of First Regiment or the Pillars of Something or other.

And therefore Shepard's fate was sealed.

[Invisible Man]

I still would have liked the option to convince the catalyst that it was flawed (in reason, logic, or programming), and been able to talk it into figuratively shooting itself in the head. that would have been more satisfying, and also been a better tie-in to the rest of the game & the series, but then again doing it twice in a fairly short amount of time (as in TIM) might not be as satisfying as I may have thought.

[Sion1138]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's not like Shepard actually has a plan there. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

He doesn't have to have one, but you should be given the option of expressing resignation, disdain, despair or encouragement instead of just one predefined option.

Even if there is no major consequence in terms of future events, it enables you to identify.

You don't have to make him say stupid things. 

[Sion1138]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

Or Knights of The Old Republic or Dragon Age or Jade Empire or Neverwinter Nights or Mass Effect...

Do those games fill in the blanks for you or not? You suggested Mass Effect does not and that this is the player's job.

Not that I was aware of, it didn't pop out at me or get in the way of the experience.

[von uber]

Invisible Man wrote...

I still would have liked the option to convince the catalyst that it was flawed (in reason, logic, or programming), and been able to talk it into figuratively shooting itself in the head. that would have been more satisfying, and also been a better tie-in to the rest of the game & the series, but then again doing it twice in a fairly short amount of time (as in TIM) might not be as satisfying as I may have thought.

Therefore have the confrontation with TIM be the climax, with no 'nothing's happening'. TIM represents the reapers through his indoctination, and thus ties in neatly with how you defeat Saren in the first game (a nice bookend to the cycle). Although that would prove problematic for Leviathan (but nothing a few lines of dialogue couldn't change).

[SpamBot2000]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

"I'm a soldier Anderson, I'm no politician." - That's a major statement of character, forced on the player.

Are there versions of Shepard who are politicians?

I guess you missed the talky bits between the pew pew, Al. Goliath "Consensus Builder" Shepard was the greatest statesman of all time.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's no headcanon needed. Shepard survives, and that is clear, both by the placement of the breath scene, and by statements made by BW employees that made the EC. The statement by BW at a panel that "maybe it's Shepard's last breath" was a light-hearted troll of the audience, made obvious by the video. Not so obvious reading about it in some post by a disgruntled fan on the BSN.

It doesn't help that there's an awful lot of dishonesty on the BSN when describing the scene. A lot of people who know better talk about Shepard lying in rubble forever, or similar nonsense.

It's dishonest to take the deliberately vague scene we were left with even after promises of "clarity and closure" at face value? 

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

It's dishonest to take the deliberately vague scene we were left with even after promises of "clarity and closure" at face value? 

It's dishonest if you know better. You do know better., even if you sometimes pretend not to.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 janvier 2014 - 09:01 .

[SpamBot2000]

I'd hardly call distrusting BioWare's cheap and false breath scene "dishonest". If the ending of ME3 proved anything, it's that BW give no good goddamn whether thing A follows from thing B or if a giant lobster falls from the sky and crushes you instead. If you debase all narrative logic, you're not going to be trusted when you throw in some hackneyed scene whose meaning in another, less messed up context would be obvious.

[Eterna]

iakus wrote...

ToJKa1 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

 Don't think Bioware will ever live down ME3's Ending.
That said, watch this : MEHEM's Trailer
Then Get MEHEM

You owe it to yourself, to play ME3 with MEHEM at least once.

Well, if i ignore the crappy additional voice acting and poorly spliced together vidoes, it's exactly the kind of singing flying unicorns farting rainbows and candy ending i didn't want to see. But the collector base music goes great with destroy ending.

I'll stick with Extended Cut. Because i can't get rid of it

That trailer was actually two versions ago.

Now there's better VO work, less scene recycling, and yes a Low EMS version now.

@Archonsg:  yes, you can now choose between the Suicide Mission track or original music on installation.

There is nothing more tantalizing than having fanfic delivered by shoddy fan voice acting. 

[SpamBot2000]

Eterna5 wrote...

There is nothing more tantalizing than having fanfic delivered by shoddy fan voice acting. 

Yet if it were stamped with Casey Hudson's rubber "canon" stamp, you'd swear it wuz tha gratest thing eva!!1!

[Eterna]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

There is nothing more tantalizing than having fanfic delivered by shoddy fan voice acting. 

Yet if it were stamped with Casey Hudson's rubber "canon" stamp, you'd swear it wuz tha gratest thing eva!!1!

Not really. It is too fan wanky for me. I didn't really adore the citadel dlc for that reason. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 17 janvier 2014 - 09:17 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's dishonest to take the deliberately vague scene we were left with even after promises of "clarity and closure" at face value? 

It's dishonest if you know better. You do know better., even if you sometimes pretend not to.

Intentions are pointless if it doesn't get the point across.  Clearly they failed at that for a lot of people.  To put the fault on the audience for Bioware's failure to follow through on their own promise is...disingenuous.

The scene wasn't clear for a lot of people.  The scene didn't provide the closure people sought.  That's on Bioware.