121 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

AlanC9 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

Every fight could be the last fight in the game even though we know it isn't. If you don't make it to the beam you get back up and try a different plan that can lead to getting to the beam. Saying this could be the last battle shows weakness and brings morale down causing some not to to fight at their best.

Wait... you're saying the characters should always pretend that they can't get killed?

Where did I say that?

Every mission they go on they know there is a possibility of being killed. They have to accept that otherwise they're of no use. Letting it bother you is a sign of weakness which others may see and in turn may bring morale down. And if the enemy sees that they will exploit that weakness.

[von uber]

StreetMagic wrote...


It's partly why I don't even like Liara in ME3 (although she acts the same way in ME1 before Ilos, if you romance her). I just don't care for real people like this, so it's not going to work for a game either.

It kind of surprises me how many do like it. Including the whole time capsule scene. I play in a way now where I don't even talk to Liara anymore.

Funny really isn't it. I actually like her more because of that sort of talk. I guess that's why people like the games, everyone sees what they want to in the charcters (which is probably Bioware's best achievement).

[AlanC9]

themikefest wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

Every fight could be the last fight in the game even though we know it isn't. If you don't make it to the beam you get back up and try a different plan that can lead to getting to the beam. Saying this could be the last battle shows weakness and brings morale down causing some not to to fight at their best.

Wait... you're saying the characters should always pretend that they can't get killed?

Where did I say that?

The italed, I thought. Betraying awareness of the truth shows weakness.

Every mission they go on they know there is a possibility of being killed. They have to accept that otherwise they're of no use. Letting it bother you is a sign of weakness which others may see and in turn may bring morale down. And if the enemy sees that they will exploit that weakness.

They don't sound particularly bothered or fearful to me. You sure we played the same game?

[von uber]

See, I found Cortez to be stunningly uninteresting, along with Vega. And Ash's drunkenness was just.. odd. EDI was better when she was just a voice in my opinion.

Things is though, they needed a way of trying to make you realise how hopeless the war was and they chose to do it through the characters.

[themikefest]

AlanC9 wrote...

They don't sound particularly bothered or fearful to me. You sure we played the same game?

Really. Then why do they mention that it's their last fight or this is it?  Are you sure we played the same game?

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

In the Citadel DLC, some characters put a damper on it too. At the end, when Shepard talks about this being a last fight, Jack says "Cut that **** out." I'm sure other characters say something similar. If not, screw them then.

Ash says "No, you'll find a way to beat the odds.  And when you do, hero-man, I'll be waiting."

I consider that tacit permission to use MEHEM 

[sTkrZX5]

Jared Shepard wrote...

So sTkrZX5, now that you've completed the trilogy and have found peace with the ending.....now comes the other inevitable (and controversial) question......

Did you choose Control, Synthesis, or Destroy the Reapers?

And what was your reasoning for whichever choice you made?

Interesting question!  I chose the Destroy ending, but not without quite a bit of trepidation.  See, while I would have initially thought that destroying the Reapers would be a no-brainer, the Illusive Man's ideals started to really grow on me by the end of ME3 and the prospect of trying to create peace through controlling these huge machines was very interesting. 

Ultimately though, I decided to go with the Destroy ending because I felt like the other two avaliable options went against the character of how "my" Shepard chose to make decisions prior in the trilogy. 

Oh and one more thing- the Synthesis ending just seemed like a bad idea from the start, so it wasn't something I ever seriously considered while standing on the Citadel platform.

[AlanC9]

themikefest wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

They don't sound particularly bothered or fearful to me. You sure we played the same game?

Really. Then why do they mention that it's their last fight or this is it?  Are you sure we played the same game?

I thought they said those things because those things were true.

[themikefest]

AlanC9 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

They don't sound particularly bothered or fearful to me. You sure we played the same game?

Really. Then why do they mention that it's their last fight or this is it?  Are you sure we played the same game?

I thought they said those things because those things were true.

How do they know it's the last fight? If they fail to get to the beam and then later on try another plan involving fighting are they going to say this is the last fight again?.

[AlanC9]

Sure. The exact same thing happens at the end of BG2. You think it's the last fight, but it isn't.

[dorktainian]

i think people need to take a step back and analyze the whole thing again. I think Jurbo J has sussed it. Just look again at the endings... Note none of them are from shepards point of view. Thats the point. Re-play the trilogy...paying extra attention to the first game, Step back and open your mind to the wonderous world that is Mass Effect.

[NeonFlux117]

dorktainian wrote...

i think people need to take a step back and analyze the whole thing again. I think Jurbo J has sussed it. Just look again at the endings... Note none of them are from shepards point of view. Thats the point. Re-play the trilogy...paying extra attention to the first game, Step back and open your mind to the wonderous world that is Mass Effect.

Destroy however is from Shepard and allies point of view....Hence the alive scene and stuff.

But yeah..... "Things" are happening under the surface for sure. 

[Jared Shepard]

sTkrZX5 wrote...

Jared Shepard wrote...

So sTkrZX5, now that you've completed the trilogy and have found peace with the ending.....now comes the other inevitable (and controversial) question......

Did you choose Control, Synthesis, or Destroy the Reapers?

And what was your reasoning for whichever choice you made?

Interesting question!  I chose the Destroy ending, but not without quite a bit of trepidation.  See, while I would have initially thought that destroying the Reapers would be a no-brainer, the Illusive Man's ideals started to really grow on me by the end of ME3 and the prospect of trying to create peace through controlling these huge machines was very interesting. 

Ultimately though, I decided to go with the Destroy ending because I felt like the other two avaliable options went against the character of how "my" Shepard chose to make decisions prior in the trilogy. 

Oh and one more thing- the Synthesis ending just seemed like a bad idea from the start, so it wasn't something I ever seriously considered while standing on the Citadel platform.

My thoughts exactly.

My Shepard destroyed Sovereign, Saren, the Collector Base, and shot the Illusive Man (for making him shoot Anderson). Destroying the things that have killed Trillions of lives over millions of years really was the only logical option for me.

I think you'll find the Extended Cut more satisfying in terms of seeing more of what happens after that decision.

[CronoDragoon]

voteDC wrote...
You could take the scene as a moment of hope but it really isn't hard to see it as the last moments of life of someone dying alone.

It's very hard to see it, unless someone has never experienced this type of scene before and doesn't understand its place in the story. Such a scene can be quite common in visual stories and always represents one thing: the entity shown is alive, not in the silly "alive for one second then dies" sense but alive in the "it's clear they will be alive for the foresee-able future" sense.

Logically, this is trivial to figure out on your own. If Shepard is meant to die in the rubble, then there is NO, I repeat ZERO, purpose to that scene, because the assumption from the player at that point in the story is already that Shepard is dead. The scene therefore subverts that expectation by showing him not dead, and the only purpose in subverting that expectation is to imply that he is shown alive in the same way any protagonist is shown alive at the end of the story.

Honestly, do you think Tidus drowns swimming to the surface at the end of Final Fantasy X?

Almostfaceman wrote...
Kinda talking out of your butt on that one, there was a lot more people confused about it (in my experience)
AND the commentary from Bioware didn't help clarify the matter. Speculation for Everyone!

Compared to the other reasons people did not like the breath scene: no, many people were not confused. The "Shepard might be dead" bandwagon gained steam when people started thinking that wanted the emotional satisfaction of a reunion scene wasn't a legitimate enough reason to ask for one, so they started scrambling for other reasons to legitimize their desire. Meanwhile people like me who did want a reunion scene but weren't willing to be purposefully obtuse about a scene's clear intent to get it became outnumbered.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:06 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

It's very hard to see it, unless someone has never experienced this type of scene before and doesn't understand its place in the story. Such a scene can be quite common in visual stories and always represents one thing: the entity shown is alive, not in the silly "alive for one second then dies" sense but alive in the "it's clear they will be alive for the foresee-able future" sense.

Logically, this is trivial to figure out on your own. If Shepard is meant to die in the rubble, then there is NO, I repeat ZERO, purpose to that scene, because the assumption from the player at that point in the story is already that Shepard is dead. The scene therefore subverts that expectation by showing him not dead, and the only purpose in subverting that expectation is to imply that he is shown alive in the same way any protagonist is shown alive at the end of the story.

Honestly, do you think Tidus drowns swimming to the surface at the end of Final Fantasy X?

It's hard for you to see it.  But for others it's pretty easy.  The intention may have been there to show that Shepard was alive and weill be rescued, but even wth EC, the scene is so devoid of the emotional setup needed the scene is as easily a final scene of despair as of hope.

What the scene is supposed to show is a meaningless thought exercise if it doesn't convey it properly.  And the breath scene does not show it properly

And to quote David Gaider:  "Our intention means nothing to the player when they're on the receiving end"

Even though I know what the scene is intended to show.  it simply does not convey that feeling to me.  I get no feeling of relief, or a sense of imminent rescue.  To me it's just a scene of a man dying alone.  The intention means nothing to me because they failed to convey what they intended.

[CronoDragoon]

Sounds to me like you were simply unreceptive of the scene due to what the endings had done to your emotional state already. If you simply want to say that while you understand the point of the scene it is not emotionally satisfying, then I accept that argument completely. If you want to say that you didn't understand the purpose of the scene then I don't believe you. Sorry.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sounds to me like you were simply unreceptive of the scene due to what the endings had done to your emotional state already. If you simply want to say that while you understand the point of the scene it is not emotionally satisfying, then I accept that argument completely. If you want to say that you didn't understand the purpose of the scene then I don't believe you. Sorry.

In a sense you are right.  The absolute disgust I feel at the endings cannot be undone by a halfhearted attempt to show Shepard is still alive.  This is supposed to be a spark of hope.  But it provides nothing.

Does not negate that the scene failed to do its job:  To provide hope and "closure". 

[Han Shot First]

I have no problem with the overall dark atmosphere of ME3, or the fatalistic or fearful moods amongst some of the Normandy's crew. It was appropriate given the setting, IMO. We only need to go back to the First or Second World Wars or any of humanity's most destructive conflicts to find similar attitudes. In that it added a sense of realism.



"To the noncombatants and those on the periphery of action, the war meant only boredom or occasional excitement; but to those who entered the meat grinder itself, the war was a nether world of horror from which escape seemed less and less likely as casualties mounted and the fighting dragged on and on. Time had no meaning; life had no meaning. The fierce struggle for survival in the abyss of Peleliu eroded the veneer of civilization and made savages of us all. We existed in an environment totally incomprehensible to men behind the lines -- service troops and civilians."

---Eugene Sledge, 1st Marine Division, on the Battle of Peleliu




"My heart is broken by the terrible loss I have sustained in my old friends and companions and my poor soldiers. Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won."

---Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, in a letter written after the battle of Waterloo




"Abandoned by a God in whom many of us believed, we lay prostrate and dazed in our demi-tomb. From time to time, one of us would look over the parapet to stare across the dusty plain into the east, from which death might bear down on us at any moment. We felt like lost souls, who had forgotten that men are made for something else, that time exists, and hope, and sentiments other than anguish; that friendship can be more than ephemeral, that love can sometimes occur, that the earth can be productive, and used for something other than burying the dead."

---Guy Sajer, veteran of the German Army in the Second World War



"If any man tells you that he went into the front line and wasn't scared, he's a liar."

---Harry Patch, the last British veteran of World War One



"I never moved into combat without having the feeling of a cold hand reaching into my gut and twisting it into knots."

---Audie Murphy, the United States' most decorated soldier for heroism in World War Two

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 janvier 2014 - 12:14 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

This thread is too new and original for me.