114 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

First of all, you never actually set the Warden's personality. Whatever you think it is, it is 100% headcanon. The Warden is for all intents and purposes a blank slate personalitywise. However given the major issues that permeates Thedas, the developers COULD throw the players a bone and at least set the stance of the Warden on some of these issues. Or they could, which is even more likely, just completely avoid these topics with the Warden.

I shaped The Warden's personality with choices, dialogue, and actions in the same way I shaped who my Courier was. It's why I enjoy roleplaying where you create your own characters.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you are seriously going to take issue with the colour of skin of a Warden and/or Hawke? And you really don't know what "whitewashed" means if you think that a white character is by defeault "whitewashed".....

Yes, I'm going to take issue with the skin color, which is why I took issue with Varric's tale about a default white Hawke. And I think you mean turning a brown or black character into a white character.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And if it is unappealing to you, well boohoo... BioWare WILL do whatever the **** they please with the Warden and Hawke, and the ONLY thing you can do, is either leave the franchise or just get with bandwagon, because resisting BioWare's right as creators to do as they please with characters they created, can only lead to frustration.

Which doesn't change the fact that people are entitled to disagree with such a decision, no matter how much it bothers you.

[Raven489]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

First of all, you never actually set the Warden's personality. Whatever you think it is, it is 100% headcanon. The Warden is for all intents and purposes a blank slate personalitywise. However given the major issues that permeates Thedas, the developers COULD throw the players a bone and at least set the stance of the Warden on some of these issues. Or they could, which is even more likely, just completely avoid these topics with the Warden.

And you are seriously going to take issue with the colour of skin of a Warden and/or Hawke? And you really don't know what "whitewashed" means if you think that a white character is by defeault "whitewashed".....

And if it is unappealing to you, well boohoo... BioWare WILL do whatever the **** they please with the Warden and Hawke, and the ONLY thing you can do, is either leave the franchise or just get with bandwagon, because resisting BioWare's right as creators to do as they please with characters they created, can only lead to frustration.

I think they mean since their Warden or Hawke weren't white, that it would be weird for them to show up as white in DA:I (since that isn't how they created them in DA:O and DA2), and I see where they're coming from. My Warden and Hawke were not white, so if they do show up, of course it's going to make me think "That's not my Warden" or "That's not my Hawke." And you said it's not "our" character, well maybe you're right. But still, I think it's a normal reaction to want them to at least resemble what they looked like in the first two games. That's just my opinion though, don't want to start an arguement. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Raven489 wrote...
I think they mean since their Warden or Hawke weren't white, that it would be weird for them to show up as white in DA:I (since that isn't how they created them in DA:O and DA2), and I see where they're coming from. My Warden and Hawke were not white, so if they do show up, of course it's going to make me think "That's not my Warden" or "That's not my Hawke." And you said it's not "our" character, well maybe you're right. But still, I think it's a normal reaction to want them to at least resemble what they looked like in the first two games. That's just my opinion though, don't want to start an arguement. 

And how quickly do you think I would be called a racist for expressing my irritation that a character I ENVISIONED as white was turned black in canon? Not that I would actually care since the colour of a  character's skin is completely irrelevant, but just think about what exactly is being complained about here.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I shaped The Warden's personality with choices, dialogue, and actions in the same way I shaped who my Courier was. It's why I enjoy roleplaying where you create your own characters.

No you didn't. You IMAGINED your Warden's personality based on the choices you made him do. The game world is COMPLETELY uncarring to your imagiend notions of your Warden's personality, and doesn't even register it at all. You can have a completely homicidal maniac Warden for the first half of the game, and then make a compelte 180 and go pacifist for the last haf, without ANY change in character dialogue.

Any kind of personality the Warden has, is 100% headcanon.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you are seriously going to take issue with the colour of skin of a Warden and/or Hawke? And you really don't know what "whitewashed" means if you think that a white character is by defeault "whitewashed".....

Yes, I'm going to take issue with the skin color, which is why I took issue with Varric's tale about a default white Hawke. And I think you mean turning a brown or black character into a white character.

That is racist, and that is not what whitewashing means.. At all...

[Raven489]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Raven489 wrote...
I think they mean since their Warden or Hawke weren't white, that it would be weird for them to show up as white in DA:I (since that isn't how they created them in DA:O and DA2), and I see where they're coming from. My Warden and Hawke were not white, so if they do show up, of course it's going to make me think "That's not my Warden" or "That's not my Hawke." And you said it's not "our" character, well maybe you're right. But still, I think it's a normal reaction to want them to at least resemble what they looked like in the first two games. That's just my opinion though, don't want to start an arguement. 

And how quickly do you think I would be called a racist for expressing my irritation that a character I ENVISIONED as white was turned black in canon? Not that I would actually care since the colour of a  character's skin is completely irrelevant, but just think about what exactly is being complained about here.

Not sure how the word "racist" got thrown into this, but I don't think what I said was racist at all, nor do I think you're racist for becoming irritated because a character you pictured white was turned black. What's so racist about wanting my Hawke or Warden to look how I created them? The same goes for if they show up with red hair or green eyes, it's not all about skin color. 

To answer the OP, I would be perfectly fine with them just being mentioned or a rumor about them, something like that.

Modifié par Raven489, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:30 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

You can want your Hawke and Warden to appear like you envisioned them all you want. But to actually be annoyed by something as superficial as skin colour, or basic physical apeparance just seems.... Shallow.
What does it matter how they look, for as long as their actions remain the same?

Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that their general appearance won't be either maintained or adjusted, to begin with.

If they actually completely disregarded the choices you made with eitehr of those characters THEN I think you would have something to complain about.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I shaped The Warden's personality with choices, dialogue, and actions in the same way I shaped who my Courier was. It's why I enjoy roleplaying where you create your own characters.

No you didn't. You IMAGINED your Warden's personality based on the choices you made him do. The game world is COMPLETELY uncarring to your imagiend notions of your Warden's personality, and doesn't even register it at all. You can have a completely homicidal maniac Warden for the first half of the game, and then make a compelte 180 and go pacifist for the last haf, without ANY change in character dialogue.

Any kind of personality the Warden has, is 100% headcanon.

Could i chose whether my was nice or mean for someone ,could is specify in what way my warden see mages or templars could i discuss about his desires and plans or for example what he/she thinks about love i could.Yep i could so i shaped personality by choosing dialogues and actions and this is about what rpg is. Warden is blank character that you are fill it through game.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No you didn't. NOTHING changes based on the choices you make. There is no tone of voice, there is no alteration of dialogue options. There is NOTHING to indicate any shred of personality in your Warden- Essentially the Warden is an empty soulles husk, so as to better facilitate the players headcanon and projected personality onto the character.

[Nightdragon8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Flemeth is villain sue she should be removed as possible before this will become ridiculous (already is) and put realistic but competent villain not omnipotent who knows everything about everyone and what will happened and can't put ridiculous plans that always successful begone villain sue...

2.Not true you won't be able manipulate anything about warden or hawke in keep beyond basics like gender , class and origins they confirmed this in vid. 

3.In warden case it was typical riding into the sunset of typical(open ending for example your warden become farmer:devil:) rpg protagonist (blank protagonist that mostly everything is set up by player) then hero disappears because it was up to you and personality you created what he wants do and who she/he is.Hawke was more shepard and defined protagonist that had own personality traits so i can see that but still it isn't worth it.  

So i hope they won't bring them back because it will be only disappointment and destroy character that we created and played when it could be avoided.

Rassler wrote...

I think the chances of Hawke returning is
higher than the warden because he is a much straight forward character.
He is always human and there isn't much different choices to make on
DA2. I think in manner of speaking there is only 2 kinds of Hawke;
pro-templar and pro-mage. The rest of information about him are pretty
much details.

Not entirely when hawke was more like shepard and had many own personality traits hawke could be more than pro-templar or mage he could be neutral or don't give crap and well we have 3 personality sets.

How isn't Flemth "realistic" ? Can you explain? The fact that she can surivie after getting killed? How many body doubles did Sadam Husan have? Like 4 if I remember right. Then Hitler had at least 1. So they "survived" after getting killed. And you pretty much discirbed every comicbook, TV, movie, villain out there.

She may not even be a "Villain" in the end. We do not know. Heck, Gaider may not even know at this point. (blah blah, "all" writers know how the story is going to end, not true)

Flemieth has her own plans, while everyone else has there's. Now wither or not those plans are "evil" or not can only be judged in when the event happens. The fact that she doesn't want the darkspawn around as much as the next person, at least puts some hope that she isn't "evil" considering the grey natrue of the world, she could in fact be on the light side of the grey. We do not know. Judgements made in a vacum are never good judgements.

As for Warden and Hawke showing up... Honestly meh. It will be a hard sell really. Cause there is alot of people who can be potentionally let down. And really I honestly don't see BW doing that.

Cause it will be ME3 all over again, with BW ending up saying the exact same thing, "Entitled video game players" and how "Artisitc Integerdry" Which well set the BW forums to flames again. And I rather not deal with it agian.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No you didn't. NOTHING changes based on the choices you make. There is no tone of voice, there is no alteration of dialogue options. There is NOTHING to indicate any shred of personality in your Warden- Essentially the Warden is an empty soulles husk, so as to better facilitate the players headcanon and projected personality onto the character.

yep i did how my warden reacts and his viewpoint is personality hmm?
i could express for example hate for mages this is piece of his personality...

Yes it is empty soulles husk but player have role to fill it by choosing actions and dialogue option.

For example
-Mages are dogs they need all be killed
-I will kill mages because they are dangerous
-i won't kill mages it is inhumane
-mages can be useful i won't kill them because it is waste

by choosing one that option player is choosing warden view on this matter and thus makes part of his/her personality. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

There aren't nearly as many DA fans as there are ME fans though, the potential fallout would be lesser than ME3's. And despite the fallout ME3 suffered, it is still one of the most, if not the most, succesful BioWare titles to date. I think they will be willing to risk it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No you didn't. NOTHING changes based on the choices you make. There is no tone of voice, there is no alteration of dialogue options. There is NOTHING to indicate any shred of personality in your Warden- Essentially the Warden is an empty soulles husk, so as to better facilitate the players headcanon and projected personality onto the character.

yep i did how my warden reacts and his viewpoint is personality hmm?
i could express for example hate for mages this is piece of his personality...

Yes it is empty soulles husk but player have role to fill it by choosing actions and dialogue option.

For example
-Mages are dogs they need all be killed
-I will kill mages because they are dangerous
-i won't kill mages it is inhumane
-mages can be useful i won't kill them because it is waste

by choosing one that option player is choosing warden view on this matter and thus makes part of his/her personality. 

Nope. That does NOT become a part of the Wardens personality unless YOU make it so in your headcanon, because if you for instance initally says you hate all mages, you can in the very next dialogue option say you lvoe all mages.
Any shred of the Warden's personality is entirely in your own head.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

How isn't Flemth "realistic" ? Can you explain? The fact that she can surivie after getting killed? How many body doubles did Sadam Husan have? Like 4 if I remember right. Then Hitler had at least 1. So they "survived" after getting killed. And you pretty much discirbed every comicbook, TV, movie, villain out there.

She may not even be a "Villain" in the end. We do not know. Heck, Gaider may not even know at this point. (blah blah, "all" writers know how the story is going to end, not true)

Flemieth has her own plans, while everyone else has there's. Now wither or not those plans are "evil" or not can only be judged in when the event happens. The fact that she doesn't want the darkspawn around as much as the next person, at least puts some hope that she isn't "evil" considering the grey natrue of the world, she could in fact be on the light side of the grey. We do not know. Judgements made in a vacum are never good judgements.

As for Warden and Hawke showing up... Honestly meh. It will be a hard sell really. Cause there is alot of people who can be potentionally let down. And really I honestly don't see BW doing that.

Cause it will be ME3 all over again, with BW ending up saying the exact same thing, "Entitled video game players" and how "Artisitc Integerdry" Which well set the BW forums to flames again. And I rather not deal with it agian.

Sure i can flemeth have features of villain sue why because she can't be defeated (and please don't even mention warden vs flemeth) and always wins , she have ridiculus ability to preditc what will happen and ploting plans that always works ,she have knowledge about characters pc or companions that she didn't even seen and have plot armor (well many others have but that is just next detail) and she is able manipulate everyone and no one can't do something about it because either she knows everything , pulled deus ex machina or just have plot armor.

She isn't hero that sure she looks like villain and act that way is she or isn't she? but we know that she is bi*** who had own goals (and i doubt that is hugging orphans) and certainly she isn't using "nice" means to reach that

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nope. That does NOT become a part
of the Wardens personality unless YOU make it so in your headcanon,
because if you for instance initally says you hate all mages, you can in
the very next dialogue option say you lvoe all mages.
Any shred of the Warden's personality is entirely in your own head.

Where you can said that?
Having uncertain point of view is as well personality trait not very good but still it is.
And as i said it is rpg game with blank protagonist i chose how he see world and react to sitations or characters and thats point of rp.

As well i can said that if cullen liked mages he can't dislike them later and still he have personality (however i would argue:devil:)

Is that leliana chew me for playing with her feeling and in next conversation she states that she doesn't have anything against doing that mean that she doesn't have personality?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 janvier 2014 - 03:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Exactly which of Flemeth's actions have been villainous? The act of saving our hero the first time, or the second time?

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Exactly which of Flemeth's actions have been villainous? The act of saving our hero the first time, or the second time?

for example abusive upbringing of morrigan and screwing her with her philosophy (stupid evil). manipulating two protagonists to reach her goals? Ritual taking contol over other person body is another...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 janvier 2014 - 03:15 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I shaped The Warden's personality with choices, dialogue, and actions in the same way I shaped who my Courier was. It's why I enjoy roleplaying where you create your own characters.

No you didn't. You IMAGINED your Warden's personality based on the choices you made him do. The game world is COMPLETELY uncarring to your imagiend notions of your Warden's personality, and doesn't even register it at all. You can have a completely homicidal maniac Warden for the first half of the game, and then make a compelte 180 and go pacifist for the last haf, without ANY change in character dialogue.

My Warden's personality is reflected in the dialogue choices, actions, and decisions. My Warden said he didn't believe in the Maker, he openly condemned the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert, he said the Circle was a prison and an oppressive place, and he wanted autonomy for his people. The personality was reflected in what he said and what he did. I'm not certain how you're trying to argue otherwise. This is an RPG we're talking about; one where we define the character, rather than playing as one who is predefined.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Any kind of personality the Warden has, is 100% headcanon.

When you're invited to create and shape who the character is, I have to strongly disagree.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I'm going to take issue with the skin color, which is why I took issue with Varric's tale about a default white Hawke. And I think you mean turning a brown or black character into a white character.

That is racist, and that is not what whitewashing means.. At all... 

Except that's precisely what it means and how it's used by virtually everyone who addressed how non-white characters get their identity marginalized as they're altered into white characters. I guess the rest of the world hasn't caught on to your definition of the word. And I didn't realize it was racist for me to want my non-white character to remain non-white.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 janvier 2014 - 03:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I shaped The Warden's personality with choices, dialogue, and actions in the same way I shaped who my Courier was. It's why I enjoy roleplaying where you create your own characters.

No you didn't. You IMAGINED your Warden's personality based on the choices you made him do. The game world is COMPLETELY uncarring to your imagiend notions of your Warden's personality, and doesn't even register it at all. You can have a completely homicidal maniac Warden for the first half of the game, and then make a compelte 180 and go pacifist for the last haf, without ANY change in character dialogue.

My Warden's personality is reflected in the dialogue choices, actions, and decisions. My Warden said he didn't believe in the Maker, he openly condemned the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert, he said the Circle was a prison and an oppressive place, and he wanted autonomy for his people. The personality was reflected in what he said and what he did. I'm not certain how you're trying to argue otherwise. This is an RPG we're talking about; one where we define the character, rather than playing as one who is predefined.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Any kind of personality the Warden has, is 100% headcanon.

When you're invited to create and shape who the character is, I have to strongly disagree.

Except that NOTHING you do changes the personality of the Warden, since he doesn't have any. You can at one point condemn the Chantry, then at the enxt oppertunity proclaim yourself its champion. The Warden has no personality, other than the one you project onto him. The characters does not react differently to you, despite whatever choices you make throughout the game. Dialogue options doesn't change. There is no reactivity to the Warden's action. Meaning he is devoid of personality.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I'm going to take issue with the skin color, which is why I took issue with Varric's tale about a default white Hawke. And I think you mean turning a brown or black character into a white character.

That is racist, and that is not what whitewashing means.. At all... 

Except that's precisely what it means and how it's used by virtually everyone who addressed how non-white characters get their identity marginalized as they're altered into white characters. I guess the rest of the world hasn't caught on to your definition of the word. And I didn't realize it was racist for me to want my non-white character to remain non-white.

No... That is decidedly NOT what whitewashing means..... Get you damn facts straight.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 janvier 2014 - 03:50 .

[Marakov7]

Saying that dialogue choices have nothing to do with establishing the warden's personality is like saying that what a person says in real life does not define his/her personality. I'm sorry, but that is simply flawed thinking. The dialogue choices ones makes when talking with Morrigan, for instance, clearly shows what kind of a person they are. An early conversation with Sten where he asks the warden "The Blight - How will you end it?" and he subsequently says something snide about how he's not impressed with what you have shown him so far, you can respond "I'm not here to impress you." or "I'm new to the Wardens." Right there you are establishing the warden's personality. Gaider or anybody else can say that the Warden is simply an NPC now, but that doesn't make it true. Not having any control of them, I have no problem with that (I'd prefer as little as possible about my warden in DAI outside of simple acknowledgement that he existed). But my warden will never be JUST an NPC. However, I do agree that his actions after DAO may not align with the personality he was in DAO because unforeseen events can change how we act in real life also. That's why I hope he is pretty much off hands-off in DAI...just let him drift off into the sunset and let the poor guy alone.

[x-aizen-x]

[quote]Gilliy wrote...

It's already been stated that our personal wardens and hawkes will not make a physical appearance.

wHO SAID THIS A DEV?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what it means and how it's used by virtually everyone who addressed how non-white characters get their identity marginalized as they're altered into white characters. I guess the rest of the world hasn't caught on to your definition of the word. And I didn't realize it was racist for me to want my non-white character to remain non-white.

No... That is decidedly NOT what whitewashing means..... Get you damn facts straight. 

Your retort is contradicted by the multitude of people who address whitewashing as such, including fantasy author Ursula K. Le Guin when she described the adaption of her fictional work Earthsea in her article: "A Whitewashed Earthsea". You're the one who needs to get his facts straight when you act like no one uses the term as such.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 janvier 2014 - 05:40 .

[Sanunes]

x-aizen-x wrote...

Gilliy wrote...

It's already been stated that our personal wardens and hawkes will not make a physical appearance.

wHO SAID THIS A DEV?

I don't think that has been said directly, but what has been said is that BioWare will do what they want with the characters, for they stopped being ours the moment the credits ran in the game. The other comment is from a YouTube interview with the person incharge of The Keep (cannot think of his name for the life of me) where he was asked about using The Keep to customize the look of The Warden or Hawke and the response was along the lines of thats not part of The Keep, all that will be done there is that we can enter the basic information such as name/gender/race/class type of choice for those characters.

I have little doubt that The Warden or Hawke will be in the game in some fashion, but I am not sure if it will be a physical appearance or not with how people have reacted in the past to import issues and inconsistencies.

Modifié par Sanunes, 15 janvier 2014 - 05:57 .

[Grieving Natashina]

We don't know whether or not we can "set" the Warden's personality.  Perhaps we can, most likely we will not able to.  
At this point, it's utter hubris to claim definitive knowledge either way about this.  Any such claims should be taken with a grain of salt.  We'll most likely know a lot more closer to this summer.


Here we go with the bickering again. <_<

Anyone have a popcorn gif handy?

Modifié par Starsyn, 15 janvier 2014 - 06:28 .

[jkd1975]

Could they do this? Could they release the character creator prior to the game release? We could mess around with it and recreate our characters. In the character creator have the face code for us. Then we could copy the face code into a field in The Keep. Then when we import our save from The Keep, the look of our wardens and Hawkes would be ready to go.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what it means and how it's used by virtually everyone who addressed how non-white characters get their identity marginalized as they're altered into white characters. I guess the rest of the world hasn't caught on to your definition of the word. And I didn't realize it was racist for me to want my non-white character to remain non-white.

No... That is decidedly NOT what whitewashing means..... Get you damn facts straight. 

Your retort is contradicted by the multitude of people who address whitewashing as such, including fantasy author Ursula K. Le Guin when she described the adaption of her fictional work Earthsea in her article: "A Whitewashed Earthsea". You're the one who needs to get his facts straight when you act like no one uses the term as such.

Tbat there are other morons out there misusing the term, does not help your point.

[legbamel]

I don't know who put you in charge of semantics, but personal attacks weaken your already-flawed argument. Turning a person of color from a story into a Caucasion is about as literal an example of whitewashing as you can get. You can argue whether speech, habits, and behavior can or should be taken as indicators of ethnicity but not so much with skin color.

Was your example of someone you thought white turning out to be black a reference to Isabela? If so, you should already know that her appearance was dictated by the limitations of the old engine. Gaider has specifically stated that she was always meant to be black. Your perception of her were, thus, mistaken. An improved ability to display skin color is not the same as changing the skin color of a character.

[EmperorSahlertz]

legbamel wrote...

I don't know who put you in charge of semantics, but personal attacks weaken your already-flawed argument. Turning a person of color from a story into a Caucasion is about as literal an example of whitewashing as you can get. You can argue whether speech, habits, and behavior can or should be taken as indicators of ethnicity but not so much with skin color.

It is not I who defined the term whitewashing, but rather the way that it was orignially used, kept beign used as, and continue to be used as. 

"anything, as deceptive words or actions, used to cover up or gloss over faults, errors, or wrongdoings, or absolve a wrongdoer from blame."

Of course you can go by to wash a wall white, or the name of specific white paints. Literally.

legbamel wrote...
Was your example of someone you thought white turning out to be black a reference to Isabela? If so, you should already know that her appearance was dictated by the limitations of the old engine. Gaider has specifically stated that she was always meant to be black. Your perception of her were, thus, mistaken. An improved ability to display skin color is not the same as changing the skin color of a character.

I was refering to the fact, that if you bicker, **** and whine about a white character being turned black in canon, then you are aracist. And that the same should be true in reverse. Or preferably that it should be accepted to not matter at all.

Personally I don't give two pots of ****** about the skin colour of any character. What I would care about is if they changed the actions of the characters. If Hawke in my playthroughs were of the sarcastic personality, then he should remain so. Changing that, would be to destroy the character I envision. To change his apeparance, wouldn't mean anything other than his appearance would be changed.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:53 .