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[Obadiah]

I've been thinking of how the Synthesis ending doesn't really acknowledge the massive crime that took place with the Reaper cycles - I consider it a crime... a crime against life. I can't qualify that crime with specifics, probably because I feel the Catalyst was correct in taking some action, but I do feel that somewhere along the road to a solution it has done something wrong for the Reaper cycle to be a solution.

Destroy has "justice" (from some wrong there should be a penalty) in that the Reapers are executed, and Control has... well... Reaper slavery, or a mind-wipe, or servitude, or enforced community service (or something).  In Synthesis the Reapers just seem to voluntarily help, and there's no indication of punishment enacted. This doesn't seem like a just outcome.

Do you agree?
Do you think there is some Reaper penance in Synthesis?
Do you look at the destruction of past cycles differently, perhaps beyond judgement of, say, a modern western moral code?

To explain this lack of justice I've hit upon a notion of author intent: that perhaps Synthetics are not fully "alive" (as EDI or the Geth strive to be in ME3). Perhaps all Synthetics are still partially chained or restricted by their creators? Perhaps their creators are as guilty as their creations? For these reasons the Catalyst and Reapers are not fully culpable for their actions until Synthesis where they're... freed? This would add significance of EDI's declaration, "I am alive." Now all Synthetics are free and responsible beings.

To those of you that think there is no justice for the Quarians because of the Geth actions in the Morning War, this would explain that as well.

Thoughts?

[UPDATED]
If the EC is interpretted to show the Citadel being destroyed along with the Catalyst, then I think that this is a measure of justice.

Modifié par Obadiah, 18 janvier 2014 - 02:07 .

[Excella Gionne]

How do you bring Reapers into a court? Since Reapers are synthetics themselves, but they have an ethical purpose for being alive and for harvesting cycles, they're crimes are an act of experimentation along with preserving life from organics themselves. Synthesis allows synthetics to think for themselves and to understand what it is to be an organic. Basically, they become living things, but they are still synthetics nonetheless. Synthesis frees synthetics from their enslavement of not being able to feel emotions.

Legion & EDI are a great example of Synthesis themselves. Since Legion and EDI have reaper coding in them, they're more alive than any other synthetic. During the Rannoch chapter, it's easily seen that Legion starts to feel guilty, ashamed, and etc. While it's easy to see that EDI starts to become very curious and wants to learn more about organics and etc. Don't forget about her love for humor. Her feelings for Joker are obviously there, and if encouraged by Shepard, she will pursue a relationship. She also does show anger and sympathy too. This proves that as bad as Reapers are, their technology actually can evolve a synthetic being to being as close to an organic being. Remember, the entire galaxy's technology is all thanks to the reaper.

In my opinion about the Reapers within the Synthesis outcome, each individual Reaper is now free to think for themselves and are no longer enslaved to an ethical idea. Synthesis makes everything fair, giving organics and synthetics no boundaries of differences. Although it's weird that no one seems to blame the reapers for all of the death before, it would be unwise to fight the reapers anyways because they are still WAY MORE POWERFUL! And since Reapers have emotions now, they may be fighting for a different reason should a war start again post-synthesis.

The line between synthetics and organics eventually disappears as EDI says.

[Nightwriter]

I see no Reaper penance in Synthesis. When you pick it you accept the idea that the Reapers were just behaving as compelled and therefore deserve no punishment for their actions.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 I've been here a while and have heard just about every argument over the endings -- there are good and bad ones for all of them. Destroy as serving justice, IMO, is high on the list of bad ones (not "reprihensible" bad, but "stupid/incoherent" bad).

We learn, at the end of ME3, that the Reapers aren't free-willed entities. They're under control to another, higher intelligence. If there was any doubt, we learn how the cycles came to be from Leviathan DLC. This was not even a completely out-of-the-blue development: Vendetta on Thessia indicates that others believed the Reapers were slaves to the cycle, not its master. Them's the facts. The only people I see try to despute these facts are... Destroyers . It's clearly inconvenient.

So I think that choosing Destroy (or any option, for that matter) as a means of extracting justice or even vengence from the Reapers is just plain stupid. It would be like if the Prothean survivors from Ilos went and massacred the Keepers upon returning to the Citadel, after learning that they were responsible for helping the Reapers periodically invade the galaxy. Or like if indoctrinated thralls and husk victims were branded traitors and publicly (sp?) shamed. Just plain stupidity.

tl;dr -- you don't blame or punish the puppet for what the guy pulling the strings makes it do.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:16 .

[Lord Watson]

"Excuse me, are you a Mr....Harbinger?"
-Yes.
"You have been served. You are to appear before Citadel Coun-" (vaporized).

I get what you're trying to say (even if it seems to be a gripe about the synthesis ending with a spin)..but how does that practically work out?  Who takes them into "custody"?  Who is prosecuting them?  Where are the Reapers held?  Are they given bonds-they're a flight risk after all.  Last but not least, they're found guilty...what happens now?  Are they banished?  Are they executed?  Would this not end up in a war vs the Reapers?  That won't end well.    

I'm not even touching the argument about whether or not the Reapers are criminally liable for fulfilling their programmed purpose. 

Modifié par Lord Watson, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:06 .

[Nightwriter]

"If you accept what the writers were trying to tell you, Destroy is illogical." Basically.

I'll leave you to guess which words in that sentence create the snag for many Destroyers. Hint: contains "accept" and "writers" and "trying to tell you."

[AlanC9]

And that's how we ended up with IT.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Nightwriter wrote...

"If you accept what the writers were trying to tell you, Destroy is illogical." Basically.

I'll leave you to guess which words in that sentence create the snag for many Destroyers. Hint: contains "accept" and "writers" and "trying to tell you."

Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I wasn't calling Destroy "illogical." There are certainly some good arguments to be made for choosing that option. What I find dubious is this notion of conventional crime-and-punishment towards those that are not acting on free-will to begin with. And that goes for all options, not just for Destroy.

Saying that it was badly written may be acceptable reason for not liking some particular story event. But it's not really acceptable reason for denying the event altogether, especially not in discourse with other fans on related story topics.

You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

[NeonFlux117]

JUSTICE!!!!

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:20 .

[Ieldra]

@OP:
Since when are mind-controlled slaves responsible for their actions? That they are mind-controlled isn't just speculation, it is (a) told you by the Catalyst (though the exact nature of this control isn't specified) and ( a very plausible conclusion from the fact that Reapers made from so many different species, containing billions of uploaded minds, work for a single purpose. And - as some claim - if they're not valid remnants of the species of old cycles, then they're built for a single purpose: to perpetuate the cycle. In either case, they never had the freedom of choice.

For the post-Synthesis future, it is important to note that they won't be bound to a single purpose anymore. If they are really valid remnants of old cycles' species, then some of them will be horrified by what they've done - possibly that's one reason why Reapers help in rebuilding civilization. Some of them will not care, of course, and others might even be actively hostile, but since they're not bound to a single purpose anymore they won't present such a potential hazard.

Relevant thread (since everything here has bee said before):

On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers....

Apart from that, I find it inappropriate to apply human ideas of justice to entities so clearly non-human, so clearly not made as a social species. According to Legion in ME2, this is racist...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 janvier 2014 - 10:13 .

[wright1978]

Reapers likely to be Galactic overlords in Synthesis. So yeah they won't faced any punishment.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Nightwriter wrote...

I see no Reaper penance in Synthesis. When you pick it you accept the idea that the Reapers were just behaving as compelled and therefore deserve no punishment for their actions.

It doesn't even matter if the Reapers are responsible for their actions or not, in my opinion (for the record, I do indeed believe Reapers have no real free will and are merely tools of the Catalyst).

Even if they had no personal guilt in all of this, I don't see why that is a reason to spare them. They are machines of doom, that have been gencoding galactical civilizations for millions of years. I'd say that's reason enough to utterly destroy them, wether they're personally guilty or not. I won't let the fate of the galaxy hang in the balance just because of a question of personal guilt. Destroy them and save the galaxy. Period.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
Since when are mind-controlled slaves responsible for their actions? That they are mind-controlled isn't just speculation, it is (a) told you by the Catalyst (though the exact nature of this control isn't specified) and ( a very plausible conclusion from the fact that Reapers made from so many different species, containing billions of uploaded minds, work for a single purpose. And - as some claim - if they're not valid remnants of the species of old cycles, then they're built for a single purpose: to perpetuate the cycle. In either case, they never had the freedom of choice.

For the post-Synthesis future, it is important to note that they won't be bound to a single purpose anymore. If they are really valid remnants of old cycles' species, then some of them will be horrified by what they've done - possibly that's one reason why Reapers help in rebuilding civilization. Some of them will not care, of course, and others might even be actively hostile, but since they're not bound to a single purpose anymore they won't present such a potential hazard.

Relevant thread (since everything here has bee said before):

On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers....

Apart from that, I find it inappropriate to apply human ideas of justice to entities so clearly non-human, so clearly not made as a social species. According to Legion in ME2, this is racist...

I think you're correct about the nature of the Reapers and them not having true free will.
Not that it matters anyway. They are and always will be a potential threat to the entire galaxy. That's too big a wager to let them continue their existance.

[AlexMBrennan]

What you seek is revenge, not justice.

I'd argue that synthesis implies that you admit that the reapers' actions were necessary, and thus acceptable, much like killing an intruder in self defence: If the reapers hadn't loving,y murdered all those billions of people then they would have made synthetics that would have killed enem AND all life in the galaxy.
If you disagree with that, you shouldn't have picked synthesis to begin with.

Further, synthesis is basically a truce - you can't exactly start dragging reapers to a trial when the only reason you are still alive is their goodwill.

[sevalaricgirl]

The reapers crime is murder, genocide. Synthesis is not punishment. Destroy is the only real punishment. And if my Shep is going down, she's going to damn well take all the machines with her.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What you seek is revenge, not justice.

I'd argue that synthesis implies that you admit that the reapers' actions were necessary, and thus acceptable, much like killing an intruder in self defence: If the reapers hadn't loving,y murdered all those billions of people then they would have made synthetics that would have killed enem AND all life in the galaxy.
If you disagree with that, you shouldn't have picked synthesis to begin with.

Further, synthesis is basically a truce - you can't exactly start dragging reapers to a trial when the only reason you are still alive is their goodwill.

Sometimes, revenge is justice.

[NeonFlux117]

F*ck the Reapers and their broke crap mandate.

"Yo dawg, I gotta kill all organics cause organics will create synthetics and synthetics will kill organics and stuff. So like I kill the organics bro".

Makes sense eh?

**Shoots tube, laughs and has a beer and a smoke while doing it.

I do not want to become a synthehusk nor do I want to become a reaper.. So.. Yeah.

Synthesis:

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:30 .

[Lord Watson]

Revenge does nothing more than satisfy a selfish desire for payback. It's a concept based on emotion, which is in no way impartial or objective.

Modifié par Lord Watson, 15 janvier 2014 - 01:01 .

[NeonFlux117]

Lord Watson wrote...

Revenge does nothing more than satisfy a selfish desire for payback. It's a concept based on emotion, which is in no way partial or objective.

It is impossible to suffer without making someone pay for it; every complaint already contains revenge. 

-Nietzsche. 

[Wayning_Star]

evolution is a crime as well as the technology that is created by it as well creates it?

Considering design, intelligent or not?  I'm thinking that such consideration is above any pay grade?

[Ieldra]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
Since when are mind-controlled slaves responsible for their actions? That they are mind-controlled isn't just speculation, it is (a) told you by the Catalyst (though the exact nature of this control isn't specified) and ( a very plausible conclusion from the fact that Reapers made from so many different species, containing billions of uploaded minds, work for a single purpose. And - as some claim - if they're not valid remnants of the species of old cycles, then they're built for a single purpose: to perpetuate the cycle. In either case, they never had the freedom of choice.

For the post-Synthesis future, it is important to note that they won't be bound to a single purpose anymore. If they are really valid remnants of old cycles' species, then some of them will be horrified by what they've done - possibly that's one reason why Reapers help in rebuilding civilization. Some of them will not care, of course, and others might even be actively hostile, but since they're not bound to a single purpose anymore they won't present such a potential hazard.

Relevant thread (since everything here has bee said before):

On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers....

Apart from that, I find it inappropriate to apply human ideas of justice to entities so clearly non-human, so clearly not made as a social species. According to Legion in ME2, this is racist...

I think you're correct about the nature of the Reapers and them not having true free will.
Not that it matters anyway. They are and always will be a potential threat to the entire galaxy. That's too big a wager to let them continue their existance.

Classic Renegade reasoning

Note that I don't necessarily disagree. Even though Synthesis is my ending of choice, I accept "It's too much of a risk to let them continue to exist" as a plausible rationale for Destroy - as opposed to the "justice" one - but it *is* a Renegade rationale.

[Wayning_Star]

'LET' them exist.. funny that.

[Wayning_Star]

there is no justice.. just us?

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2...
...
Apart from that, I find it inappropriate to apply human ideas of justice to entities so clearly non-human, so clearly not made as a social species. According to Legion in ME2, this is racist...

This is ridiculous. Being an alien does not make the Reapers unaccountable for their actions or beyond judgement. It just makes their motives alien. It is not racist to judge and alien species that is committing a crime against you, especially one that understands us enough to know that we would think that what it is doing is a gross violation of ourselves and a crime.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 janvier 2014 - 01:15 .