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[Nightwriter]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

"If you accept what the writers were trying to tell you, Destroy is illogical." Basically.

I'll leave you to guess which words in that sentence create the snag for many Destroyers. Hint: contains "accept" and "writers" and "trying to tell you."

Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I wasn't calling Destroy "illogical." There are certainly some good arguments to be made for choosing that option. What I find dubious is this notion of conventional crime-and-punishment towards those that are not acting on free-will to begin with. And that goes for all options, not just for Destroy.

Saying that it was badly written may be acceptable reason for not liking some particular story event. But it's not really acceptable reason for denying the event altogether, especially not in discourse with other fans on related story topics.

You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

It was directed at you, and "Destroy" meant "Justice!Destroy" but I was sleepy.

Not touchin' the "fact or Catalyst's word" debate. Not touchin' it. Nope. Get thee behind me.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I think the Catalyst cannot physically act in any way. It has no physical appearance. The child form in ME3 is just a hologram, I think. Holograms cannot physically interact with their surroundings. Also, the Catalyst has no direct ontrol over the Citadel itself. This is made apparent by the fact that the Reaper fleet needed to transport the Citadel to Earth (although it is never actually explained how this happens as far as I know). I don't think the Catalyst can do much itself without employing tools such as the Reapers

Since the Reapers/Catalyst built the Relay system I would assume the Citadel, the hub of that system (and the linchpin of that system to getting the Reapers into the galaxy), was also built by the Reapers/Catalyst. If that is the case it seems incredibly odd that the Catalyst would design the Citadel as his home without also giving himself control over it's functions. Also, I was always under the impression that the Catalyst did have some sort of control over the dispersion/direction of the Crucible blast and that it was responsible for ultimately bringing the Citadel to Earth; if either of these are the case the situation would be even weirder as the Catalyst designed the Citadel to give him selective control over the station.

[Nightwriter]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I see no Reaper penance in Synthesis. When you pick it you accept the idea that the Reapers were just behaving as compelled and therefore deserve no punishment for their actions.

It doesn't even matter if the Reapers are responsible for their actions or not, in my opinion (for the record, I do indeed believe Reapers have no real free will and are merely tools of the Catalyst).

Even if they had no personal guilt in all of this, I don't see why that is a reason to spare them. They are machines of doom, that have been gencoding galactical civilizations for millions of years. I'd say that's reason enough to utterly destroy them, wether they're personally guilty or not. I won't let the fate of the galaxy hang in the balance just because of a question of personal guilt. Destroy them and save the galaxy. Period.

It matters in the context of the thread because the thread is asking if punishment/justice is a valid reason for Destroy.

As for them being genocide machines, I think Synthesis and Control are trying to sell you some "the Reapers are good for other stuff besides genocide" ice cream. But it is avacado flavored and that just isn't everyone's bag.

The issue is kind of moot with me because in my books the whole "the Reapers are just deadly calculators" thing can be stamped with a big ol' "failure to launch." Maybe if the Catalyst had explained that he made sure to program them with personality imprints from Voldemort and Darth Sidious I would have been more willing to accept that they were innocent misguided toasters.

He would've had to really prove it to me though. "No, really, you can just stick whatever personality cartridge you want in Harbinger. Look."

"THIS HURTS YOU -- "
** Catalyst inserts Natalie Wood cartridge **
"I FEEL PRETTY, OH SO PRETTY -- "

Like that.

[Iakus]

The existence of the Catalyst as a controlling intelligence of the Reapers calls into doubt whether the Reapers are even sentient. It's now entirely possible, that they are little more than husks. Scions or praetorians for entire nations. They certainly are not capable of independant thought. And destroying the Reapers is about as just as destroying one of them.

"You, whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to "preserve" you. They're dead. They died thousands of yours ago. And now they can rest in peace"

The only loss in destroying them would be the loss of the knowledge and history they contained. That's the only tragedy, but one I can accept. If it was learned once, it can be learned again.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

He would've had to really prove it to me though. "No, really, you can just stick whatever personality cartridge you want in Harbinger. Look."

"THIS HURTS YOU -- "
** Catalyst inserts Natalie Wood cartridge **
"I FEEL PRETTY, OH SO PRETTY -- "

Like that.

Like that Krusty toy on The Simpsons:

"Here's your problem.  The doll's switch is set to 'evil'"

[von uber]

Does destroy need to be 'justice' to be valid?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Nightwriter wrote...
It matters in the context of the thread because the thread is asking if punishment/justice is a valid reason for Destroy.

As for them being genocide machines, I think Synthesis and Control are trying to sell you some "the Reapers are good for other stuff besides genocide" ice cream. But it is avacado flavored and that just isn't everyone's bag.

The issue is kind of moot with me because in my books the whole "the Reapers are just deadly calculators" thing can be stamped with a big ol' "failure to launch." Maybe if the Catalyst had explained that he made sure to program them with personality imprints from Voldemort and Darth Sidious I would have been more willing to accept that they were innocent misguided toasters.

He would've had to really prove it to me though. "No, really, you can just stick whatever personality cartridge you want in Harbinger. Look."

"THIS HURTS YOU -- "
** Catalyst inserts Natalie Wood cartridge **
"I FEEL PRETTY, OH SO PRETTY -- "

Like that.

Yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree with the, "they're just puppets" line of arguement if they weren't show to have had distinct personalities to begin with. Apparently Harby has a bit of a crush on Shepard and won't shut up about her. Until the beam run anyway, seems to be over it at that point, fickle bastard.

von uber wrote...

Does destroy need to be 'justice' to be valid?

Nope can be a plain old risk assement or blood thirsty revenge.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 15 janvier 2014 - 10:47 .

[shodiswe]

The Catalyst is killed. Thats punishment for the big bad mastermind.
The Reapers had no choice, they were tools to the Catalyst.
The reapers were the fire that burned, the Catalyst commanded the fire.
The Catalyst was part of the Citadel and the relaynetwork.
The Reapers were slaves created by the Catalyst which was created by the Leviathans.
Who isn't getting their punishment? The Reapers were as powerless as husks when it came to what they were doing.
The Catalyst dies in all 3 original endings.
Destroy the catalydt is blown up...
Control, erased and replaced..
Synthesid, blown up..
The Leviathans are still live, they are untouched by all endings. it might have been a few generations for them though.

Modifié par shodiswe, 15 janvier 2014 - 10:50 .

[Nightwriter]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree with the, "they're just puppets" line of arguement if they weren't show to have had distinct personalities to begin with. Apparently Harby has a bit of a crush on Shepard and won't shut up about her. Until the beam run anyway, seems to be over it at that point, fickle bastard.

You're right, that means the Catalyst could also have pulled out the "Sov and Harb's races were just douche races" argument. All 10 billion people in each of them. Douches.

[shodiswe]

Nightwriter wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree with the, "they're just puppets" line of arguement if they weren't show to have had distinct personalities to begin with. Apparently Harby has a bit of a crush on Shepard and won't shut up about her. Until the beam run anyway, seems to be over it at that point, fickle bastard.

You're right, that means the Catalyst could also have pulled out the "Sov and Harb's races were just douche races" argument. All 10 billion people in each of them. Douches.

I don't think any of the reapers had a choice whoever they were before they got reaperised. Helping rebuild after synthesis might be their atempt to reattone for what they had to do against their will.

[Obadiah]

We ever figure out what Harby said at the beam run? Was it "Save us!" or "Serve us!" or was it just a big ole truck honk?

[dreamgazer]

von uber wrote...

Does destroy need to be 'justice' to be valid?

Nope. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Obadiah wrote...

We ever figure out what Harby said at the beam run? Was it "Save us!" or "Serve us!" or was it just a big ole truck honk?

Cynically, it was probably saying, "Why didn't you just turn off the beam?" In Reaper speak. Or some Reaper swear to that effect.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:04 .

[ruggly]

Obadiah wrote...

We ever figure out what Harby said at the beam run? Was it "Save us!" or "Serve us!" or was it just a big ole truck honk?

A massive reaper fart. He was so embarrased by it he had to kill everyone who heard it so they didn't start spreading rumors.

Modifié par ruggly, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:05 .

[Nightwriter]

shodiswe wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree with the, "they're just puppets" line of arguement if they weren't show to have had distinct personalities to begin with. Apparently Harby has a bit of a crush on Shepard and won't shut up about her. Until the beam run anyway, seems to be over it at that point, fickle bastard.

You're right, that means the Catalyst could also have pulled out the "Sov and Harb's races were just douche races" argument. All 10 billion people in each of them. Douches.

I don't think any of the reapers had a choice whoever they were before they got reaperised. Helping rebuild after synthesis might be their atempt to reattone for what they had to do against their will.

Yes. They didn't make the rules. They just MWAHAHAHA!ed as they followed them.

You see what I mean. Mustache twirling. Needed to be addressed. Drones don't mustache twirl. Unless programmed. Must address Windows: Mustache Twirling Edition 2.0.

Also, whether they have any desire to atone, or are even capable of understanding the concept of atonement, is a huge blank.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Nightwriter wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree with the, "they're just puppets" line of arguement if they weren't show to have had distinct personalities to begin with. Apparently Harby has a bit of a crush on Shepard and won't shut up about her. Until the beam run anyway, seems to be over it at that point, fickle bastard.

You're right, that means the Catalyst could also have pulled out the "Sov and Harb's races were just douche races" argument. All 10 billion people in each of them. Douches.

Sov was made from a race literally named the Douches.

[MegaSovereign]

Well you could argue that in a post-synthesis world primal organic concepts like revenge would seem more trivial.

If you're going to count Reapers as people then the choices boil down to: death penalty, slavery, or permanent community service.

[Invisible Man]

or it could have been the catalyst taunting shep the entire time, not harbie or sovie.

[Nightwriter]

Invisible Man wrote...

or it could have been the catalyst taunting shep the entire time, not harbie or sovie.

I would have grudgingly accepted that.

Had it been addressed.

In the game.

*glances around warily*

*braces for "u should uv just knowed it stupid they shudn hav 2 say" treatment*

[GreyLycanTrope]

Invisible Man wrote...

or it could have been the catalyst taunting shep the entire time, not harbie or sovie.

That raises other questions
If it's the Catalyst that's been taunting Shepard then,
- why is the Rannoch Reaper specifically refering to learning about Shep from Harby, and not just taunting her directly as per the Sovy/Harby protocol established earlier?
- why does the Catalyst ask why Shepard is there in the decision chamber, and unaware the Shep has been trying to stop the Reapers?
- why would the Catalyst even bother taunting Shepard as all it seems to care about it fulfilling it's directive?
-why were the taunts so out of touch with what he was trying to actually accomplish?

I could go on for hours

[Invisible Man]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

or it could have been the catalyst taunting shep the entire time, not harbie or sovie.

That raises other questions
If it's the Catalyst that's been taunting Shepard then,
- why is the Rannoch Reaper specifically refering to learning about Shep from Harby, and not just taunting her directly as per the Sovy/Harby protocol established earlier?
- why does the Catalyst ask why Shepard is there in the decision chamber, and unaware the Shep has been trying to stop the Reapers?
- why would the Catalyst even bother taunting Shepard as all it seems to care about it fulfilling it's directive?
-why were the taunts so out of touch with what he was trying to actually accomplish?

I could go on for hours

I could say rushed writing, but I wont go there. I was actually just making a shot in the dark.

[Obadiah]

If the Catalyst is destroyed with the Citadel when the Crucible fires in Synthesis, that is some level of justice. So it is potentially not completely absent.

[Dean_the_Young]

Obadiah wrote...

If there is a moral code by which the Reaper cycles were a moral action, are you bound by that and restricted from making a judgement simply because it exists?

Certainly. That's how computer programs work: they can only work within their parameters. Since the Reapers are shackled AI, that's pretty much what they have to do.

Of course, making a judement from within the context of such a moral code would likely consider the action moral in the first place, so a judgement would simply reinforce it.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Isabela pretty much sums up my view.  "Justice" never factored into my interpretation of the endings and choices; I only wanted to stop the treat so more creatures wouldn't be hurt.

[Obadiah]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

If there is a moral code by which the Reaper cycles were a moral action, are you bound by that and restricted from making a judgement simply because it exists?

Certainly. That's how computer programs work: they can only work within their parameters. Since the Reapers are shackled AI, that's pretty much what they have to do.

Of course, making a judement from within the context of such a moral code would likely consider the action moral in the first place, so a judgement would simply reinforce it.

That wasn't the question. If the Reapers are bound by a moral code, then the existence of some other moral code (like mine) that judges their actions as wrong would not prevent them from judging their own actions as right.

With respect to this thread, what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what Reaper's moral code is, their actions can still be judged by me, or you if you chose, and justice demanded.

Modifié par Obadiah, 16 janvier 2014 - 12:45 .