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Synthesis and Justice


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#126
Obadiah

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HYR 2.0 wrote...
...
What's "a hard stretch" in this? We've seen mind-controlled individuals in this setting fairly often (indoctrination).
...

Because we still don't have a full understanding of what indoctrination is, or what kind of control it exerts.

Its entirely possible that you and Ieldra2 are right on how the Reapers are controlled, its just not clear from what the game depicts that is what is taking place.

The Catalyst says that it controls the Reapers, gives them function, and that it embodies the collective intelligence of all Reapers. That doesn't sound like mind control to me, it sounds like some type of hive mind leader. If the Catalyst's judgement on the fate of Organics without its intervention are correct (and I believe it is), then it is entirely possible that other beings like the Reapers agree with its other argument and follow it of their own free will.

It may be the "control" that the Catalyst exerts is more strategic and tactical than the full on subversion of the individual Reaper's will that you're describing.

#127
Ieldra

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Obadiah wrote...
Also, (and I'm not trying to troll here), your post seems like moral statement because it describes your version of the correct way to make a judgement.

On the contrary. I was trying to set limits on the domain of human morality. At most, it's a meta-ethical position. Of course, you may be of the opinion that every statement about what others should or should not do is a moral one, but my statement, while ultimately as arbitrary as any other statement of preference, is rooted in a descriptive account of human morality. 

#128
Ieldra

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Vigilant111 wrote...
Do you think reapers have social cohesion and co-operation? Don't you think survival of a species favor social cohesion and co-operation? If they do then why do they treat everyone else so differently? Wouldn't reapers achieve more by maintaining social cohesion and promote co-operation amongst species?

Perhaps they would, but they are not predisposed to it by their nature as humans are - as Sovereign hints at when it says "each of us is a nation, independent, free of all weakness". Or at least, they are not that under the control of the Catalyst, though some may be by virtue of being remnants of co-operative species.

You said that morality is a social construct, and then you said that humans are hardwired to certain things, which does not really add up to me since I don't believe we are hardwired to anything except we have instincts and reflexes but they are not moral. A krogan can be raised by human parents and can inherit human values and so can a reaper or anything else.

Perhaps I should say humans are predisposed by their biology to care about certain things done by other humans. Those intuitions can be overcome by conditioning, and they are shaped by culture and can be changed by reasoning, but there is a biological predisposition. Human morality is not a "non-biological thing", in spite of what some people would have you believe. That's what current research in social psychology appears to indicate.
BTW: it is not implausible that there are things in our nature we can't overcome by learning.

It is not very clear whether "good vs evil" can be applied to the struggle against the reapers, there exists ambiguity in the story since it was an organic race which caused the rise of reapers indirectly, it reflects organics' incessant need for power and as a result synthetics, being organics' children also carry the bad seeds and this manifests in the form of reapers. Good and evil aside, it is obvious that the reapers adhere to a certain code of conduct, maybe not morality but nonetheless something, I mean we have never seen a reaper ship swallows up another like animals would. My question is why do reapers get the mandate to manage galactic affairs? If they do not turn each other into goo, why do they do that to lesser races? If u say that the reapers are "hardwired" that way and have no emotions and do not feel pain and have no freewill, then it seems they are really just tools, born to reap, and when the cycles cease, it is time for them to fade away

The Reapers under the Catalyst's control *are* just tools. By their nature, they may be more - in fact, I firmly believe that they really are more and have a lot of capacity for doing interesting stuff apart from Reaping, because otherwise they wouldn't be valid remnants of the species of old cycles - but that nature has been suppressed by the Catalyst's mind control.

Synthesis will remove that control, and it may bring the nature of the reaperized species to the fore. Then they may have the capacity for co-operation, even for regret and empathy, if the reaperized species had that. Others may not.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2014 - 03:04 .


#129
shodiswe

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@ Ieldra2

The Reapers may contain a collection of a species and their memories and who they were, but as long as the Catalyst is alive they are supressed and controlled by it.
They can only act as long as they arn't working against it.

Once the Catalyst is dead they are all free, Destryo= Catalyst and reapers are Dead, Control= the Catalyst is deleted and replaced. Synthesis= the Catalyst is destroyed as the Citadel and relays are blown up.

I belive that the Catalyst itself is part of the Citadel and the Relays that were designed by the Leviathans.
Later the Catalyst created the Reapers, each of which are a collection of a species memories, knowledge and genetic material. They are under strict cotnrol by the Catalyst, beign used like pawns.
The Reapers themselves arn't at war with the galaxy, as the Catalyst mentioned, they are more like the fire which burns, the catalyst controls the fire. They are tools and some kind of token solution to this problem it has been working on for hundreds of millions of years.
They obey the Catalyst just as husks and indoctrinated people obey.

If you put the big Reapers on trial then you should put the Husks, banshees and so on on trial aswell once the war is over.
Is it justice or even meaningful?

Least the Catalyst dies in all three endings, some may still think it's getting away far too easy, but if it hadn't been killed by the ending what would you have done to the Catalyst?
If it hadn't blownup in Destroy or synthesis or been erased in Control.

Or maybe the Leviathans are the ones to blame? They are Organic however and even if they could get a million years old or even ten million it has been hundreds of millions of years or even billions.
Are they guilty of what their ancestors let loose on the galaxy? In a way they still claim to support the Catalyst and it's work, even if they arn't entierly happy with it's progress or that it hurt them.

Modifié par shodiswe, 16 janvier 2014 - 04:08 .


#130
Vigilant111

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But, but Ieldra, the reapers claim they are born out of the ESSENCE of the species. It isn't really plausible to say they are not predisposed to their own disposition

Okay, so morality is biological, or at least like you said: not non-biological, well, the reapers are not non-biological too

At no point in the story could those organic minds be appraised for authenticity. These so called minds may have simply been processed, indoctrinated prior to reaping, their very value is in question, and confidently be said not alive since real world interaction is missing as they remain stagnant through the ages. You said that in synthesis the true nature of the reapers can be revealed, but how? For example, a reaper ship is just one entity, how does it exhibit the dynamics of a whole society? How does it grow and progress?

#131
FlyingSquirrel

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree with the, "they're just puppets" line of arguement if they weren't show to have had distinct personalities to begin with. Apparently Harby has a bit of a crush on Shepard and won't shut up about her. Until the beam run anyway, seems to be over it at that point, fickle bastard.

You're right, that means the Catalyst could also have pulled out the "Sov and Harb's races were just douche races" argument. All 10 billion people in each of them. Douches.

Sov was made from a race literally named the Douches.


Well, Harbinger was made from the Leviathans, so it's fair to assume there were some douches mixed into his personality. Though I still tend to see the Reapers as possessing a new collective intelligence that probably couldn't be "broken down" to restore the memories and thoughts of each harvested individual.

Anyway, I don't think those of us arguing against assigning too much "guilt" to the Reapers are necessarily saying that the Reapers were literally puppets. To me, their legal status would be more akin to "not guilty by reason of insanity." I think that the Catalyst limited their perspective and reason so that they would not be able to come to their own conclusions about the cycles and synthetic/organic conflicts. Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper both seem to believe this.

#132
FlyingSquirrel

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StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know how to bring justice to AI like the Catalyst/Reapers. They're just so indifferent/impersonal that I'm not even sure it would mean anything to them anyways. The best thing I can think of is just destroy them and let the species they built the reapers out of to finally rest in peace.


But that's assuming that anything is left of the consciousness of those individuals. I don't really see much to suggest that - I think they're probably just dead. Their thoughts and memories may still exist in some sort of Reaper data bank, but they're now being used to further the Catalyst's agenda.

I *do* think that with the Catalyst out of the picture, the Reapers might well be able to access those thoughts and memories and develop a new perspective on them, i.e. remorse and a wish to make amends, which is part of why I think it would be wrong to just destroy them in light of everything Shepard learns by the end of the trilogy. But that doesn't mean they literally become the individuals who were once harvested.

#133
CronoDragoon

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Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) Morality serves a purpose. It exists to facilitate co-operation and give cohesion to a community. This has evolved because the human species is a hypersocial species - defined as a species where every individual has a psychological makeup that makes it possible to co-operate with any other individual of their species for common benefit. This ability to co-operate widely is the main evolutionary advantage of the human species, the reason why we have a technological civilization.

This means that it is inappropriate to apply human morality to species which are hardwired differently, or those those who are not social species.


I'm a moral absolutist who believes morality is culture-dependent. Where do we go from here?

#134
Obadiah

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Also, (and I'm not trying to troll here), your post seems like moral statement because it describes your version of the correct way to make a judgement.

On the contrary. I was trying to set limits on the domain of human morality. At most, it's a meta-ethical position. Of course, you may be of the opinion that every statement about what others should or should not do is a moral one, but my statement, while ultimately as arbitrary as any other statement of preference, is rooted in a descriptive account of human morality. 

I do in fact think that statements on behavior that guide people on what they "should" or "should not" do are moral statements. That yours came with what appears to be an ethical analysis is insightful.

#135
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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FlyingSquirrel wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know how to bring justice to AI like the Catalyst/Reapers. They're just so indifferent/impersonal that I'm not even sure it would mean anything to them anyways. The best thing I can think of is just destroy them and let the species they built the reapers out of to finally rest in peace.


But that's assuming that anything is left of the consciousness of those individuals. I don't really see much to suggest that - I think they're probably just dead. Their thoughts and memories may still exist in some sort of Reaper data bank, but they're now being used to further the Catalyst's agenda.

I *do* think that with the Catalyst out of the picture, the Reapers might well be able to access those thoughts and memories and develop a new perspective on them, i.e. remorse and a wish to make amends, which is part of why I think it would be wrong to just destroy them in light of everything Shepard learns by the end of the trilogy. But that doesn't mean they literally become the individuals who were once harvested.


Yeah, I don't know if they're conscious either. Saying they should rest in peace isn't so much for them as it is about just upholding the general concept. That people should be laid to rest with more dignity. I mean, dead is dead.. but it's a pathetic fate. Like taking a crap on someone's corpse. Killing Reapers is about the only service and justice I could do for them. And afterwards, everyone else can just live in peace.

I play Renegade, but when it comes to Reapers, I've got all kinds of corny Paragon ideals. It's why I destroyed the Collector Base too. I'm one of those people who likes the "abomination" line (seems like many don't).

Modifié par StreetMagic, 16 janvier 2014 - 06:31 .


#136
Jorji Costava

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Ieldra2 wrote...

To clarify my position regarding moral absolutism and relativism:

snip


Hopefully this doesn't come across as obtuse, but this didn't clarify things very much for me. What you've outlined is an account of the origin of moral beliefs, but that doesn't have any direct implications regarding the truth conditions for moral judgments, which is what I think we're really after. There might be an explanation of the origin of religious beliefs similar to the one you sketch for moral ones, but that doesn't automatically imply some kind of religious pluralism (i.e. my religion is true for me but not for you, etc.).

If you're a consistent relativist, then whether or not an utterance like "It's wrong for the Krogan to do X" comes out as true depends solely upon the traditions, beliefs and practices of the speaker's culture. Given that most societies don't seem to impose serious taboos upon judging outsiders, there's no reason at all why a judgment like "It's wrong for the Krogan to do X" couldn't come out as true when uttered by speakers from a wide variety of non-Krogan cultures. And if such utterances can be true, it's hard to see why it would be inappropriate to express them, unless you think some truths ought not be expressed.

CronoDragoon wrote...

I'm a moral absolutist who believes morality is culture-dependent. Where do we go from here?


Good question. I'd have to know more about your position to have any hope of answering it.

#137
AlanC9

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CronoDragoon wrote...
I'm a moral absolutist who believes morality is culture-dependent. Where do we go from here?


I guess that depends on what you do when someone comes from a culture with a morality that's incompatible with your culture's morality.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 janvier 2014 - 06:50 .


#138
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
I'm a moral absolutist who believes morality is culture-dependent. Where do we go from here?


I guess that depends on what you do when someone comes from a culture with a morality that's incompatible with your culture's morality.




When in Rome, do as the Romans do?*


*I guess that means gladiatorial fights, patricide, and incest. Oh, and orgies. With grapes.

#139
AlanC9

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osbornep wrote..

If you're a consistent relativist, then whether or not an utterance like "It's wrong for the Krogan to do X" comes out as true depends solely upon the traditions, beliefs and practices of the speaker's culture. Given that most societies don't seem to impose serious taboos upon judging outsiders, there's no reason at all why a judgment like "It's wrong for the Krogan to do X" couldn't come out as true when uttered by speakers from a wide variety of non-Krogan cultures. And if such utterances can be true, it's hard to see why it would be inappropriate to express them, unless you think some truths ought not be expressed.
.


Don't forget noncognitivism; maybe moral utterances don't have truth values in the first place.

#140
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Telling a Krogan they're wrong will net the response "that funny human thing you're doing.."

If you don't like something, just kick their ass. They'll enjoy that more.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 16 janvier 2014 - 07:01 .


#141
CronoDragoon

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AlanC9 wrote...

I guess that depends on what you do when someone comes from a culture with a morality that's incompatible with your culture's morality.


A question of how you enforce your own morality, which is definitely a part of a moral system. As a moral absolutist, my assertion is that it is good to tolerate the practice of conflicting morality unless it harms an entity or group of people against their will. Were I a relativist, I'd be forced to assert that a morality that does not tolerate other moralities under any circumstances is equally valid, and thus I could not judge them.

Let me clarify my original statement by saying I identify culture-dependence as a historical question of how something developed, not that the viability of a morality is entirely relative. In other words, I can recognize the ways in which a morality can be tied to culture while still judging it. By extension, I might judge certain aspects of culture which led to this morality. I am fine with this.

But even if I were a moral relativist, I could still judge opposing moralities. I could judge that there is a gap between the ideal morality for that culture and the existing one: that a morality could be improved from the perspective of one within that morality. Or if the other morality negatively affects the principles of my morality in some way, I'd be justified in judging it. The only way to assert the complete invialibity of moral judgement on other moralities is to be a nihilist in the most extreme sense of the term, which is another way of saying the agent has no morality whatsoever.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 16 janvier 2014 - 07:14 .


#142
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I don't think anything makes a moral stance particularly valid except fear and power. It always comes down to that. Punishment, incarceration, banishment, death, etc.. People defy a moral stance when they think they have the power to implement their own. They shut up when you put a knife to their throat (or in some religion's cases, dangle them over the fires of hell, and they happen to believe it).

Power comes first. Then the rules. I jjust hope the "mostly nice" people are the ones with power (and it's many nice people.. i.e. a democracy). Things tend to work out better this way. Social contract and all that. Just my 2c.

edit: As for the Reapers, the whole conflict comes down to power as well. It's the only way to win it or lose it. At the end of the day, there isn't much else to talk about.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 16 janvier 2014 - 07:26 .


#143
Ieldra

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Vigilant111 wrote...
But, but Ieldra, the reapers claim they are born out of the ESSENCE of the species. It isn't really plausible to say they are not predisposed to their own disposition

Isn't that what I said? The Reapers may have a capacity for human-like morality once they are free from the Catalyst's control, if the species they were made of had that, but certainly not before.

At no point in the story could those organic minds be appraised for authenticity. These so called minds may have simply been processed, indoctrinated prior to reaping, their very value is in question, and confidently be said not alive since real world interaction is missing as they remain stagnant through the ages. You said that in synthesis the true nature of the reapers can be revealed, but how? For example, a reaper ship is just one entity, how does it exhibit the dynamics of a whole society? How does it grow and progress?

A Reaper has the uploaded and conjoined minds of billions of individuals. The ecology of that conjoining is unknown, but it would be plausible to assume that a Reaper expresses dominant traits of the species it was made from. How can those minds change? No idea. Perhaps they couldn't while under the Catalyst's control, but if there is a mind as we would understand the term, there is also a capacity for learning. However, a Reaper is something that grew out of the Reaperized species, not that species itself, so of course the dynamics within a Reaper aren't necessarily identical to what existed before. For one thing, the conjoined minds have a cognitive ability far beyond anything any individual of the Reaperized species possessed.

Of course we don't have canonical confirmation of all that. Much of the above is speculation, but I maintain it's plausible speculation, given the information about the Reapers' nature we get in the course of the story.

#144
Ieldra

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AlanC9 wrote...

osbornep wrote..
If you're a consistent relativist, then whether or not an utterance like "It's wrong for the Krogan to do X" comes out as true depends solely upon the traditions, beliefs and practices of the speaker's culture. Given that most societies don't seem to impose serious taboos upon judging outsiders, there's no reason at all why a judgment like "It's wrong for the Krogan to do X" couldn't come out as true when uttered by speakers from a wide variety of non-Krogan cultures. And if such utterances can be true, it's hard to see why it would be inappropriate to express them, unless you think some truths ought not be expressed.
.


Don't forget noncognitivism; maybe moral utterances don't have truth values in the first place.

Exactly. Thats actually my real-world meta-ethical position. Moral statements are not truth-apt. All they can be are evolutionary appropriate given the nature of a species or a community. Take the nature of a species or community, and you can construct a range of likely moral statements that will arise within it. Appropriateness is, of course, no measure of desirability from any point of view. There is no contextless desirability, and you can't answer the question "Is X good?" without answering the question "Good for what?" first. Human morality in general tends to be "good for" a certain kind of balance between the good of individuals and the good of a community in terms of survival of the whole.

#145
Zso_Zso

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FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Well, Harbinger was made from the Leviathans, so it's fair to assume there were some douches mixed into his personality. Though I still tend to see the Reapers as possessing a new collective intelligence that probably couldn't be "broken down" to restore the memories and thoughts of each harvested individual.

Anyway, I don't think those of us arguing against assigning too much "guilt" to the Reapers are necessarily saying that the Reapers were literally puppets. To me, their legal status would be more akin to "not guilty by reason of insanity." I think that the Catalyst limited their perspective and reason so that they would not be able to come to their own conclusions about the cycles and synthetic/organic conflicts. Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper both seem to believe this.


This is the important point! You may say the Reapers are just tools and the the Catalyst is "responsible" for their action. However, the Catalyst itself was created by the Leviathans for a specific purpose it is trying to fulfill. In that sense it is also just a tool. So the real culprit for the culling of trillions of lives in each cycle are the original Leviathans -- not the current living ones (you don't inherit the crimes of your ancestors). Since those Leviathans are "contained" in Harbinger, he is the only entity who could be put in front of any kind of Galactic Justice system.

#146
CronoDragoon

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Zso_Zso wrote...
Since those Leviathans are "contained" in Harbinger, he is the only entity who could be put in front of any kind of Galactic Justice system.


And at worst, tried for criminal negligence.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 16 janvier 2014 - 08:24 .


#147
Obadiah

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Zso_Zso wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Well, Harbinger was made from the Leviathans, so it's fair to assume there were some douches mixed into his personality. Though I still tend to see the Reapers as possessing a new collective intelligence that probably couldn't be "broken down" to restore the memories and thoughts of each harvested individual.

Anyway, I don't think those of us arguing against assigning too much "guilt" to the Reapers are necessarily saying that the Reapers were literally puppets. To me, their legal status would be more akin to "not guilty by reason of insanity." I think that the Catalyst limited their perspective and reason so that they would not be able to come to their own conclusions about the cycles and synthetic/organic conflicts. Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper both seem to believe this.


This is the important point! You may say the Reapers are just tools and the the Catalyst is "responsible" for their action. However, the Catalyst itself was created by the Leviathans for a specific purpose it is trying to fulfill. In that sense it is also just a tool. So the real culprit for the culling of trillions of lives in each cycle are the original Leviathans -- not the current living ones (you don't inherit the crimes of your ancestors). Since those Leviathans are "contained" in Harbinger, he is the only entity who could be put in front of any kind of Galactic Justice system.

This was part of the OP and my question on author intent - Are all Synthetics just tools or devices, and not responsible for their actions until they are "alive" in Synthesis?

#148
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I don't think they're necessarily tools or devices. I just don't know what kind of standards to hold them to. And they've never bothered to tell me themselves.

EDI struggles with similar issues. At least, if you discourage the Joker romance. Then she doesn't think of herself as an equal to organics, if she's not going to experience one of their fundamental aspects (love/romance). Because of this, she's curious if she's above or below organics. I don't know if she is. I don't think she's a "thing", but in an entirely new category.

As for the Reapers, all I care about is saving people from them. As far as their victims are concerned, there's much to think about in terms of justice. Isn't my problem what justice means to Reapers though. It's no immediate concern at least.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 16 janvier 2014 - 08:38 .


#149
Obadiah

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Ieldra2 wrote...

To clarify my position regarding moral absolutism and relativism:

(1) Human morality is culture-dependent, but it has common roots in human biology. We, as humans, are hard-wired to care about some stuff our fellow-humans do in a fundamental way. For instance, one culture may define "murder" differently than another, and make different kinds of excuses or justifications for some acts of killing, but I don't know any culture where "killing one of your own for no other reason than you feel like it" is considered permissible. Thus, there are boundaries of any expression of human moral intuitions within a specific culture, and these boundaries can be used to circumscribe common elements of human morality.

(2) Morality serves a purpose. It exists to facilitate co-operation and give cohesion to a community. This has evolved because the human species is a hypersocial species - defined as a species where every individual has a psychological makeup that makes it possible to co-operate with any other individual of their species for common benefit. This ability to co-operate widely is the main evolutionary advantage of the human species, the reason why we have a technological civilization.

This means that it is inappropriate to apply human morality to species which are hardwired differently, or those those who are not social species. If the queen of a hive-mind species like the Rachni tells us, for instance, that a certain percentage of children are always killed off within one year of being born, it is inappropriate to judge that act by our moral standards. And if the krogan send out their children into the wilds of Tuchanka for initiation rites, knowing that 90% or so will not survive, it is also inappropriate for us to judge that by our standards.

What the Reapers do, in the end, is an act of culling. It has a comprehensible purpose. That such an act would be considered an atrocity for a human has no relevance. We would do the same to species we feel threaten a balance important for us. That we fight to survive and neutralize this threat is natural, but both their actions and our reactions are beyond the scope of human morality. The will to survive is not good or bad. It is part of our nature, and any construction of a "right to live" only has meaning with regard to the actions of other humans. Or members of human-like species.

The Reaper War is not good against evil. It is a conflict of natures and philosophies, the inevitable clash of mindsets alien to each other. That's what makes it interesting. Unfortunately, the trilogy's abomination aesthetic suggests otherwise, but to reduce it to good vs. evil and apply concepts of justice is to downsize it to human terms and make it boring.   

I don't think the final conclusion in the last paragraph really follows. The argument I see here is that because morality has an origin and a purpose based on race and culture, and because humans have origins and purposes that are different from Reapers, we humans therefore cannot make a human moral judgement on the Reapers or the cycle. I don't see why that should be so.

Lets start with something basic - is an action done to me desireable? If my gut reaction, simply because of pain or the aesthetic, is "no", then why wouldn't I want to examine the motives, goals, culture of the actor to determine if their action was proper/improper, correct/wrong, good/bad, good/evil, or just or unjust? Why would the fact that the actor is from an alien race or culture prevent that. Are we not capable of factoring another's practices, updating our ethical rules to account for this, while making moral judgements? I would examine it merely to satisfy myself that the cost to me was worth it.

Something as horrible as the Reaper cycles practically demands it, if only so we can understand and learn from it, come to some kind of peace with the sacrifice made, and (the scarey part) determine when if ever it would be a good idea to repeat it.

[UPDATE]
Certainly there is a philosophical clash as well. The Catalyst's argued strictly on the consequences of its actions, as did Legion in Heretic mission. Perhaps in MEU that is the philosphy that most Synthetics that think in terms of pure logic hold. While most of us would evaluate consequences, we would also judge the acts themselves as fall within or outside of standards (flexible as culture develops) we've agreed to.

The Mass Effect story viewed in that manner plays out rather well in the decisions at the end. Destroy the competing philosophy of Synthetics, assume the logical philosophy of Control, or understand each other enough to work together in Synthesis.

Understanding however, should not mean the same as ignoring the other's philosophy and violating it without consequence. It should lead to a correct evaluation of violations (including past egregious ones) and an acceptance of the penalty.

Modifié par Obadiah, 18 janvier 2014 - 01:32 .


#150
Wayning_Star

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I find it kind of funny that those here see it all as it matters but doesn't. Even though we know it does.. or we wouldn't care at all. The reapers (per se) don't really care, the catalyst doesn't either, but those that created them do, for some reason insist that they 'fix' it. Now, all that's to be done is to figure out what is broken and why.. and not necessarily in that order.

(the writers here should be ashamed of them selves and proud!!)

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Modifié par Wayning_Star, 16 janvier 2014 - 09:35 .