77 réponses à ce sujet

[FuriousFelicia]

MGW7 wrote...

You should get three detonations, unless overload hit's two cannibals at once, in which case both will lose the fire prime, but only one detonation,

Any enemy in the radius of the detonator will lose one layer of priming. so if CG had a 200 meter radius you would only ever get one BE unless an enemy either had a second prime, to shield the first, or was outside the radius for the first one one, but hit by the second

That's the point I was trying to explain. But just to expand; if you reave three targets close together, throw a cluster in the crowd, result would be one BE?

[Alfonsedode]

nice, i ll need time to process that clearly
I specced out of radius evo on cluster nades to have a better chance of having 2 of 3 but was never able to see if there is more than one

[Deerber]

FuriousFelicia wrote...

MGW7 wrote...

You should get three detonations, unless overload hit's two cannibals at once, in which case both will lose the fire prime, but only one detonation,

Any enemy in the radius of the detonator will lose one layer of priming. so if CG had a 200 meter radius you would only ever get one BE unless an enemy either had a second prime, to shield the first, or was outside the radius for the first one one, but hit by the second

That's the point I was trying to explain. But just to expand; if you reave three targets close together, throw a cluster in the crowd, result would be one BE?

If the first shrapnel hits all 3 targets then yes, only 1 BE.

Furthermore, the enemies are not primed anymore, so if you shoot with warp ammo for example - no bonus damage is applied.

[VaultingFrog]

Whats not understood?

[Deerber]

alfonsedode wrote...

nice, i ll need time to process that clearly
I specced out of radius evo on cluster nades to have a better chance of having 2 of 3 but was never able to see if there is more than one

It's hard to catch it, since clusters sound is so similar to BEs. But if you pay real attention, you can tell when more than one got off.

[Alfonsedode]

Btw, to be sure, if a target is caught in the radius of one, let's say BE. Do he loose one layer of priming ? Only a layer of biotic priming ?

@deerber : yeah i m almost never sure to catch the BE sound with them. Maybe a quick solo should set that up. maybe It'll the same as for seeing TB, i was able to see them, but not anymore

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:17 .

[FuriousFelicia]

Btw I miss the days when BEs would transfer the primar's effects on targets caught in the blast.

Do you remember those AA bubble stasising all the sorounding mooks after the boom?

[Alfonsedode]

Deerber wrote...

Your best bet for information on the radius is probably the weekly balance changes thread. They were touched a lot at first. Force... Not really sure, but my guess would be that they still are what Godless wrote down and were not changed. Cyonan would know more, I guess... Or even Tyhw, if you manage to get his attention

Yeah, it seems there s not lot about it. I hope i ll catch the old timer testers attention . But radius and even force seem hard to test !

I closely looked at the weekly balance changes thread, and clearly all damage where put at the same level and all radius too except for TB. I wonder if E. Fagnan forgot to write it or if they forgot to nerf them....

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:21 .

[MGW7]

alfonsedode wrote...

Btw, to be sure, if a target is caught in the radius of one, let's say BE. Do he loose one layer of priming ? Only a layer of biotic priming ?

@deerber : yeah i m almost never sure to catch the BE sound with them. Maybe a quick solo should set that up. maybe It'll the same as for seeing TB, i was able to see them, but not anymore

BEs do nothing to the prime state of a target, the power that created it does

Now detonating the prime means the enemy no longer has it, and to have more than one layer of priming means having two of more types of priming, an  enemy can only be primed for a BE, or not primed for a BE, he cannot be double primed for a BE, but he can be primed for a BE and another type of detonation at the same time, say FE
the most primed an enemy can be is 4, (BE,FE,CE,TB), detonation happens in the order applied, to achieve all 4 simultaneously on one enemy requires either snapfreeze first, or a health enemy, followed by non detonating primes,
for instance
Snapfreeze>Flamer>dark Cannel>disruptor ammo (works on every enemy)
throwing a cluster grenade,(modded for four shrapnel for this instance) would create, in this order, a TB, a BE, a FE, and finally a CE, other ways to get this result would be using throw four times on the enemy, to get the same explosions in the same order,

Repriming an enemy moves that prime to the top, so using flamer again on the last enemy would cause the FE to happen first, followed by the other three,

Some detonators can't detonate some primes,(tech won't create BEs notably) reave can only detonate BEs, so even with all four on the target above it, it will always create a BE, skipping the other layers, but not disturbing them, to do so

[Alfonsedode]

MGW7 wrote...

alfonsedode wrote...

Btw, to be sure, if a target is caught in the radius of one, let's say BE. Do he loose one layer of priming ? Only a layer of biotic priming ?

@deerber : yeah i m almost never sure to catch the BE sound with them. Maybe a quick solo should set that up. maybe It'll the same as for seeing TB, i was able to see them, but not anymore

BEs do nothing to the prime state of a target, the power that created it does

Now detonating the prime means the enemy no longer has it, and to have more than one layer of priming means having two of more types of priming, an  enemy can only be primed for a BE, or not primed for a BE, he cannot be double primed for a BE, but he can be primed for a BE and another type of detonation at the same time, say FE
the most primed an enemy can be is 4, (BE,FE,CE,TB), detonation happens in the order applied, to achieve all 4 simultaneously on one enemy requires either snapfreeze first, or a health enemy, followed by non detonating primes,
for instance
Snapfreeze>Flamer>dark Cannel>disruptor ammo (works on every enemy)
throwing a cluster grenade,(modded for four shrapnel for this instance) would create, in this order, a TB, a BE, a FE, and finally a CE, other ways to get this result would be using throw four times on the enemy, to get the same explosions in the same order,

Repriming an enemy moves that prime to the top, so using flamer again on the last enemy would cause the FE to happen first, followed by the other three,

Some detonators can't detonate some primes,(tech won't create BEs notably) reave can only detonate BEs, so even with all four on the target above it, it will always create a BE, skipping the other layers, but not disturbing them, to do so

Ok, thx MGW7, it s quite clear now . although in your 4 layers of priming example, is it required that the four shrapnel does nt detonate like one (almost same spot and same instant), but separately ?

Btw, are U ok with the rest of my OP ?

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:41 .

[Darkstar Aurora]

I am fairly certain that the variable ranges for both force and radius are keyed into the combo formula that considers rank, and that they are then enhanced by any applicable 'Detonate' evolution multipliers.

A Warp and Throw combination can impose a heavy stagger on boss tier enemies on Platinum, even if you have the lowest possible N force on Throw (i.e. Radius, Detonate, Recharge Speed with no passive skill ranks) which would be impossible if the limit was 1000N. In terms of radius: while I have no means of testing radius I can say that when switching to a Warpless Adept (Fury, Justicar, Drell, etc) it certainly seems like my biotic explosions have a smaller radius.

[MGW7]

alfonsedode wrote...
Ok, thx MGW7, it s quite clear now . although in your 4 layers of priming example, is it required that the four shrapnel does nt detonate like one (almost same spot and same instant), but separately ?

Btw, are U ok with the rest of my OP ?

For one enemy primed multiple times it does not matter, essentially, each grenade removes 1 layer from every enemy in it's radius, then create a detonation based on the type of prime from the first enemy it removed a layer from, so you can have as many detonations in one spot as the enemy with the most layers in range has, but every enemy in the radius will lose their layers as well

if an enemy has one layer (BE), but the dude next too him has two (TB over BE) throwing two grenades, the first grenade removes the one layer from the first guy, for a BE, and removes the TB layer from the second, without creating a TB. the second grenade then detonates, and takes the second layer from the second guy, creating another BE

Explosion multipliers multiply the radius, force, and damage even if they don't say so, and multiply each other as well,
two powers with 1.5 multipliers result in a BE 2.25x as powerful
They also receive the difficulty scaling the same way as the evo ones

Also, adding layers of tech priming can preserve warp bonuses, such as warp ammo, and CG5b evo, adding two layers to a biotic primed enemie allows double damage on all three grenades

Modifié par MGW7, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:14 .

[Alfonsedode]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

I am fairly certain that the variable ranges for both force and radius are keyed into the combo formula that considers rank, and that they are then enhanced by any applicable 'Detonate' evolution multipliers.

Maybe it s a defense multiplier or difficulty scaling one... I would be reasonable if there were the same difficulty scaling mutiplier for force and even a smaller one for radius.

Darkstar Aurora wrote..
A Warp and Throw combination can impose a heavy stagger on boss tier enemies on Platinum, even if you have the lowest possible N force on Throw (i.e. Radius, Detonate, Recharge Speed with no passive skill ranks) which would be impossible if the limit was 1000N. In terms of radius: while I have no means of testing radius I can say that when switching to a Warpless Adept (Fury, Justicar, Drell, etc) it certainly seems like my biotic explosions have a smaller radius.

In the evos description, we all know how innacurate they can be, only warp explicitly mentions the radius increase.

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 janvier 2014 - 03:02 .

[Tybo]

Basically everything MGW7 stated is correct.

I did not know that all combo evolutions increased radius.  Radius is not easily testable in game.  I assume you found this through parsing through the game code?

As far as force increasing damage, Cyonan has claimed that 10% of force is converted to damage.  However, in all of my testing I have not seen any such increase (possibly only exists on Throw, which I believe is where he first found this and which I have not tested).  The only time I've seen force converted to damage is when the enemy is ragdolled.  In this case, the damage taken from force is unknown, and not easily calculatable.  

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...

Basically everything MGW7 stated is correct.

I did not know that all combo evolutions increased radius.  Radius is not easily testable in game.  I assume you found this through parsing through the game code?

As far as force increasing damage, Cyonan has claimed that 10% of force is converted to damage.  However, in all of my testing I have not seen any such increase (possibly only exists on Throw, which I believe is where he first found this and which I have not tested).  The only time I've seen force converted to damage is when the enemy is ragdolled.  In this case, the damage taken from force is unknown, and not easily calculatable.  

We already found that the 10% of force to damage thing is incorrect a long time ago. The game has a variable for it, but doesn't bother to use it in most cases.

Looking through the game's code, Shockwave does not increase radius with the combo evolution. I've not checked the other ones yet.

Combos are a complete mess in terms of trying to figure out what the hell they're doing by looking at the code though. I still haven't found where it's scaling based off difficulty and why it would be different for each enemy.

Or why when I give a Marauder 1 million hit points a combo still 1 shots it.

[NuclearTech76]

tyhw wrote...

Basically everything MGW7 stated is correct.

I did not know that all combo evolutions increased radius.  Radius is not easily testable in game.  I assume you found this through parsing through the game code?

As far as force increasing damage, Cyonan has claimed that 10% of force is converted to damage.  However, in all of my testing I have not seen any such increase (possibly only exists on Throw, which I believe is where he first found this and which I have not tested).  The only time I've seen force converted to damage is when the enemy is ragdolled.  In this case, the damage taken from force is unknown, and not easily calculatable.  

There seems to be some element of damage upon impact also. Sometimes frozen stuff during a solo will fall over then die. Or an enemy bounced with throw seems to take some damage on impact. 

Does melee do more damage on ragdolled enemies as well? 

[MGW7]

tyhw wrote...

Basically everything MGW7 stated is correct.

I did not know that all combo evolutions increased radius.  Radius is not easily testable in game.  I assume you found this through parsing through the game code?

As far as force increasing damage, Cyonan has claimed that 10% of force is converted to damage.  However, in all of my testing I have not seen any such increase (possibly only exists on Throw, which I believe is where he first found this and which I have not tested).  The only time I've seen force converted to damage is when the enemy is ragdolled.  In this case, the damage taken from force is unknown, and not easily calculatable.  

all forces exert damage, simply bumping into an enemy causes a tiny amount of damage, I believe certain powers increase the damage-force to 10%, but otherwise force damage is relatively small, and even with 10%, were only taking a few hundred force damage from the greatest forces in the game, and anything less than 1000 n isn't even 100 damage
.
I gather data and draw the best possible conclusions, my numbers aren't always spot on, but I am almost always correct when it comes to the grand design, I took the fact that most powers feature copy paste elements, and that the descriptions are bad, and came to the inclusion that there is likely the combo variable is applied to all the variable aspects of combo detonations automatically, regardless of the specifics of the description

If you have evidence that I'm seriously wrong, I would love to assimilate this data and re-evaluate my conclusions,

Edit, so there are more than one aspect, rather than the one I thought, thank you Cy

Cyonan wrote...
Combos are a complete mess in terms of trying to figure out what the hell they're doing by looking at the code though. I still haven't found where it's scaling based off difficulty and why it would be different for each enemy.

Or why when I give a Marauder 1 million hit points a combo still 1 shots it.

Do enemies contain hard coded variables for how many it should take to kill them?
How many variables control the combo?

Modifié par MGW7, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:18 .

[Tybo]

Cyonan wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Basically everything MGW7 stated is correct.

I did not know that all combo evolutions increased radius.  Radius is not easily testable in game.  I assume you found this through parsing through the game code?

As far as force increasing damage, Cyonan has claimed that 10% of force is converted to damage.  However, in all of my testing I have not seen any such increase (possibly only exists on Throw, which I believe is where he first found this and which I have not tested).  The only time I've seen force converted to damage is when the enemy is ragdolled.  In this case, the damage taken from force is unknown, and not easily calculatable.  

We already found that the 10% of force to damage thing is incorrect a long time ago. The game has a variable for it, but doesn't bother to use it in most cases.

Looking through the game's code, Shockwave does not increase radius with the combo evolution. I've not checked the other ones yet.

Combos are a complete mess in terms of trying to figure out what the hell they're doing by looking at the code though. I still haven't found where it's scaling based off difficulty and why it would be different for each enemy.

Or why when I give a Marauder 1 million hit points a combo still 1 shots it.

Sorry, hadn't seen you mention it so I figured it was worth mentioning in case there was some truth to it in some unknown (by me) sense.

Also, that 1 million hit points thing is bizzare and quite fascinating

NuclearTech76 wrote...

There seems to be some element of damage upon impact also. Sometimes frozen stuff during a solo will fall over then die. Or an enemy bounced with throw seems to take some damage on impact. 

Does melee do more damage on ragdolled enemies as well? 

Yes, frozen enemies which fall are considered ragdolled.  Not 100% sure on the melee thing, but my guess would be yes.

MGW7 wrote...

all forces exert damage, simply bumping into an enemy causes a tiny amount of damage, I believe certain powers increase the damage-force to 10%, but otherwise force damage is relatively small, and even with 10%, were only taking a few hundred force damage from the greatest forces in the game, and anything less than 1000 n isn't even 100 damage
.
I gather data and draw the best possible conclusions, my numbers aren't always spot on, but I am almost always correct when it comes to the grand design, I took the fact that most powers feature copy paste elements, and that the descriptions are bad, and came to the inclusion that there is likely the combo variable is applied to all the variable aspects of combo detonations automatically, regardless of the specifics of the description

If you have evidence that I'm seriously wrong, I would love to assimilate this data and re-evaluate my conclusions, 

The only evidence I have that you are wrong is what Cyonan just posted, but I find it is good practice not to make such statements on educated guesses without indicating that it is such.

As for force not providing damage, it appears that there is no longer any disagreement between the testers/dataminers and that force does not increase damage.  Certainly based on the results of my own extensive testing, and the even more thorough testing of Corlist, there is no amount of force conversion to damage based on powers unless the target is ragdolled.

Modifié par tyhw, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:56 .

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

While you guys are here, have you ever confirmed whether or not the detonate evolution on pull affects enemies that aren't pulled?

[Tybo]

b00g13man wrote...

While you guys are here, have you ever confirmed whether or not the detonate evolution on pull affects enemies that aren't pulled?

I have not.  

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

tyhw wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

While you guys are here, have you ever confirmed whether or not the detonate evolution on pull affects enemies that aren't pulled?

I have not.  

Fair enough. It's just that the wording has me convinced it doesn't.

[Deerber]

b00g13man wrote...

tyhw wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

While you guys are here, have you ever confirmed whether or not the detonate evolution on pull affects enemies that aren't pulled?

I have not.  

Fair enough. It's just that the wording has me convinced it doesn't.

It should be pretty easy to test it, even without specific programs, shouldn't it? Just set up a combo with pull next to a shielded target and see how many bars are taken off...

[Alfonsedode]

Cyonan wrote...

Combos are a complete mess in terms of trying to figure out what the hell they're doing by looking at the code though. I still haven't found where it's scaling based off difficulty and why it would be different for each enemy.

Or why when I give a Marauder 1 million hit points a combo still 1 shots it.

I am sorry my english is not good enough to follow this or maybe this second beer wasn t a good idea .
There R specific modifier for each foe (marauder / engineer aso) ?

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:34 .

[Alfonsedode]

Deerber wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

tyhw wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

While you guys are here, have you ever confirmed whether or not the detonate evolution on pull affects enemies that aren't pulled?

I have not.  

Fair enough. It's just that the wording has me convinced it doesn't.

It should be pretty easy to test it, even without specific programs, shouldn't it? Just set up a combo with pull next to a shielded target and see how many bars are taken off...

I havent any guy with pull specced more than 3 

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:41 .

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Deerber wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

tyhw wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

While you guys are here, have you ever confirmed whether or not the detonate evolution on pull affects enemies that aren't pulled?

I have not.  

Fair enough. It's just that the wording has me convinced it doesn't.

It should be pretty easy to test it, even without specific programs, shouldn't it? Just set up a combo with pull next to a shielded target and see how many bars are taken off...

Lol, I'm too lazy for all that...