111 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Viktoria Landers wrote...

Just look at the most successful games around. The ones that can be modded (and toolset is a great way to do that) have bigger longevity and are also more popular (than normal).

BioWare should better not neglect these facts with DA:Inquisition.

I think it's a bit simplistic to draw such a strong link between modding capability and success, particularly when modding is only available to PC players.

After all, plenty of games are moddable and fail completely. Plenty of the most successful games (CoD, Assassin's Creed, sports games, arguably Battlefield, GTA) can't be modded, or barely have an active modding community. Games that are moddable and are successful may be extremely popular for reasons that have nothing to do with modding - particularly if most of their sales come from console versions. Did people buy Skyrim because it was moddable, or because they heard it was an epic fantasy adventure that was hundreds of hours long with cool dragons? 

As Samunes said, the devs are well aware that modding keeps discs in people's PCs for longer, and that it's often a way to engage the super hardcore base of players who use computers.

That doesn't mean that adding a toolkit is possible, or even sensible. If the benefits are heavily outweighed by the costs of making one, what reason is there to do it? Adding modding capability *might* lead to better word-of-mouth among PC players, sure. But would that time be better spent adding engine features that make the game better overall? If making a toolkit means dragging a bunch of programmers and Frostbite people away from their usual jobs for a month or two, would that compromise their contribution to the rest of the game? At what point does the cost of a toolkit become damaging to the game's success, rather than helping it?

They're really only questions that Bioware can answer, because they're the ones with the information, the financial projections, and the budgets. But so far, clearly, a toolkit isn't something that they've decided to invest in.

[Nightdragon8]

ElitePinecone wrote...

PrincessRiku wrote...

but yes, it really has little to do with what Bioware wants to do with it, since Frostbite 3 isn't theirs.

This seems to be a common perception - where/why are people getting the impression that Bioware doesn't own Frostbite? 

Frostbite is an EA engine, and Bioware is part of EA...  

Just because DICE has it don't mean BW gets access to it. Thats not how it works.

[ghostzodd]

Its not up to Bioware though, Its up to there overlords in suits EA:(

[ElitePinecone]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Just because DICE has it don't mean BW gets access to it. Thats not how it works.

As of last year, that is how it works.

In fact, Bioware are making their own modifications to Frostbite which are fed back into the code that all EA non-sports games will use from now on. Every EA studio is basically sharing, and improving, an engine.

[PanamaRed]

I have to say that I'm disappointed that Bioware's approach to modding Dragon Age has changed so much from DA:O to DA:I. Modding was one of the things that attracted me to Dragon Age in the first place.

If it is not in the schedule to get a toolkit out, it would be really nice if Bioware could implement an override folder and publish some information about the file formats used. That would go a long way.

I remain optimistic about the game and am looking forward to finding out more.

[CybAnt1]

If there's no mods, I hope the console codes are powerful. (I don't like to use the word "cheat". Too value-laden. I prefer to "customize" my gaming experience.)

Even if there are no mods, someone might be able to, for example, write an external character editor. Even if the engine files change, I presume the third game will still be using 2DA's (I hope) for many things such as level progression, which people know how to edit.

It's access to those, as well as mods, which is why I still think RPGing is best on a PC. (No slam intended at anyone else's choices, just pointing out the reasons for mine.)

[sharkboy421]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I suppose I'm being needlessly anal but I would be shocked if Mirror's Edge 2 had any mods for it seeing as how the game doesn't even have a release date. 

I'll forgive you if you forgive me as I don't even know what that title is. RPGs are not the only games I play, by any means, but I'll also confess to only knowing about a small subsection of gaming titles.  

Only reason I brought it up is ModDB (which I've never looked at before, BTW, but it was what came up when I looked for "Frostbite 3 mods") shows those 2 as "Frostbite 3 game engine games" and doesn't mention one hasn't even been released. 

EDIT: Ok, actually, now that I look more closely, it does unlike the other one, have no "released date X".

Definitely no hard feelings.  And I'm not surprised Mirror's Edge never really hit it big but it is a great game if you ever have the chance to play it.  It does the free-running of Assassin's Creed but all in first person and set in a kind of cyber punk setting. 

I highly recommend it and I can't wait for the new one.

[Angrywolves]

CybAnt1 wrote...

If there's no mods, I hope the console codes are powerful. (I don't like to use the word "cheat". Too value-laden. I prefer to "customize" my gaming experience.)

Even if there are no mods, someone might be able to, for example, write an external character editor. Even if the engine files change, I presume the third game will still be using 2DA's (I hope) for many things such as level progression, which people know how to edit.

It's access to those, as well as mods, which is why I still think RPGing is best on a PC. (No slam intended at anyone else's choices, just pointing out the reasons for mine.)

Probably very difficult for a Frostbite engine designed to defeat tampering.:innocent:Agree that because of Bethesda primarily, rpging is best done from a pc.

I would not buy the pc version of DAI without a toolkit.If a console is available.Not worth buying the pc version imo.<_<

Modifié par Angrywolves, 18 janvier 2014 - 02:01 .

[YuniSticksitDeep]

Mods make the Difference"

Check out Mass Effect 3 Happy Ending Mod on Nexus.

Tell me again why they chose to NOT support Mods in THIS Game????



Yuni:devil:

[Fast Jimmy]

YuniSticksitDeep wrote...

Mods make the Difference"

Check out Mass Effect 3 Happy Ending Mod on Nexus.

Tell me again why they chose to NOT support Mods in THIS Game????



Yuni:devil:

They are using tools to create the game that are developed by other companies. If they tried to give you the same rough toolset they are using, they would be giving away tools they don't own, which is not only problematic, but downright illegal without paying licenses for each kit sold. This was not the case with DA.O.

For the record, the Happy Endng mod for ME3 was made without a toolkit, either. 

[Angrywolves]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Just because DICE has it don't mean BW gets access to it. Thats not how it works.

As of last year, that is how it works.

In fact, Bioware are making their own modifications to Frostbite which are fed back into the code that all EA non-sports games will use from now on. Every EA studio is basically sharing, and improving, an engine.

Shouldn't have been used if it had to be "improved".That's just my opinion.

[LinksOcarina]

Angrywolves wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Just because DICE has it don't mean BW gets access to it. Thats not how it works.

As of last year, that is how it works.

In fact, Bioware are making their own modifications to Frostbite which are fed back into the code that all EA non-sports games will use from now on. Every EA studio is basically sharing, and improving, an engine.

Shouldn't have been used if it had to be "improved".That's just my opinion.

All game engines are improved upon. If they were perfect then graphic fidelity would have been at its peak years ago.

EA is basically pouring money into a personal engine they have the rights to, instead of licensing out the right for say Unreal 3 or 4. It is cheaper and more cost-effective, and lets be honest Frostbite is a pretty good engine all things considered.

That said, I doubt it is ready for modding support at this time. Maybe in a few years, sure, but by the end of 2014, I doubt it. 

[Sanunes]

LinksOcarina wrote...

<quote trim>

All game engines are improved upon. If they were perfect then graphic fidelity would have been at its peak years ago.

EA is basically pouring money into a personal engine they have the rights to, instead of licensing out the right for say Unreal 3 or 4. It is cheaper and more cost-effective, and lets be honest Frostbite is a pretty good engine all things considered.

That said, I doubt it is ready for modding support at this time. Maybe in a few years, sure, but by the end of 2014, I doubt it. 

I think Allan said at one point that they are reducing the amount of third party development tools within Frostbite (which makes sense to reduce costs further), but it probably won't happen for Dragon Age: Inquisition.  Lets see if I can find the quote.

Edit: It was in the link that has been posted before, but here is a direct link to the quote.

http://social.biowar...548838#17320029

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I mean, on the plus side, some of the third party stuff that was in earlier Frostbite builds is now being done by in house EA tools (since that evolution still has advantages to us), so it may become more feasible.  I wouldn't bet on it for DAI, unfortunately.

Modifié par Sanunes, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:12 .

[Angrywolves]

Why couldn't Frostbite have developed these tools ?

I do feel they shouldn't have used this engine if it was going to be that much trouble.

"All game engines are improved upon. If they were perfect then graphic fidelity would have been at its peak years ago."

Maybe so but it cost more time and trouble.We'll see if it was worth it.

[Chashan]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

They are using tools to create the game that are developed by other companies. If they tried to give you the same rough toolset they are using, they would be giving away tools they don't own, which is not only problematic, but downright illegal without paying licenses for each kit sold. This was not the case with DA.O.

For the record, the Happy Endng mod for ME3 was made without a toolkit, either. 

Which makes me hopeful that Frostbite will be figured out in likewise manner too, eventually.

[PinkysPain]

Frostbite is full of middleware with obnoxious licenses.

[Sanunes]

Angrywolves wrote...

Why couldn't Frostbite have developed these tools ?

I do feel they shouldn't have used this engine if it was going to be that much trouble.

"All game engines are improved upon. If they were perfect then graphic fidelity would have been at its peak years ago."

Maybe so but it cost more time and trouble.We'll see if it was worth it.

As far as I can recall every game I have played in the last few years has had some sort of third party software its not just Frostbite, the only exception I can think of is Bethesda games.  I am currently playing Borderlands 2 with a friend and every time I start the game it tells me they used AutoDesk's Gameware and Wwise Audio Pipeline.  Those two seem to come up a lot in games as well including Blink, but its normally just a credit.

The reason why I think people go to companies to make third party applications is by an example.  It would be like renovating a room in your house or appartment, you can do all the drywalling and finishing, but a person that makes their living at those jobs will normally do a much better job then you could and probably do it faster.

Modifié par Sanunes, 20 janvier 2014 - 07:34 .

[Nightdragon8]

Angrywolves wrote...

Why couldn't Frostbite have developed these tools ?

I do feel they shouldn't have used this engine if it was going to be that much trouble.

"All game engines are improved upon. If they were perfect then graphic fidelity would have been at its peak years ago."

Maybe so but it cost more time and trouble.We'll see if it was worth it.

just so you know, there is no engine capable of doing what they want to do. They would have to make it from scracth in which case, we wont see a game for 5 years minimum.

DA:O was a modifcation of an engine, DA2 was a modifaction of that same engine.

So telling people to devlop there own engine is honestly dumb. Why reinvite the wheel, Hell why dont you tell everything to produce your own computer from scratch, Go out mine the ore and matrials themslevs and build there own chip making machines. Becuase ITS DUMB to do so.

They could have kept trying to mod there old engine, but from what people where saying was that it was getting to its limits of what they could change. My guess is that it started to become more unstable.

While frostbite is a fresh new engie. Heck I wouldn't doubt the programers are having fun getting the engine to do what they want.

My guess is that if they where going to add dragons in a 'realistc' way then they needed some flight mechanics that tehyw oudl have had to put into the game (and no cutscense don't coutn) they don't need the heavy physics like in BF4 but they need some stable flight of some sort.

[Angrywolves]

"just so you know, there is no engine capable of doing what they want to do. "

Really ?
I doubt that true, but I won't argue the point.

The problem for me is there's no toollit, so no motive for me to buy the pc version of the game.

I hope at some point to buy pc versions of Oblivion and Skyrim due to all the spectacular mods available.
I do find it rather sad we will never have that for DAI.

[Fast Jimmy]

The reason why I think people go to companies to make third party applications is by an example. It would be like renovating a room in your house or appartment, you can do all the drywalling and finishing, but a person that makes their living at those jobs will normally do a much better job then you could and probably do it faster.

It comes down to Bioware being a video game developer.

Not an animation developer. Or a sound developer. Or a bug reporting developer. Etc.

A video game company can make all of their own tools so that they own all of their own proprietary tools... just like a construction company could also build their own bulldozers, if they really wanted to. Yet how stupid would that be?

There's a saying in business - "do what you do best, outsource the rest." Bioware isn't the best in the industry at making animation software. They aren't the best in the industry at making compiling software. They aren't the best in the industry at making particle hit detection software. And I'm not talking about the video game industry, I'm talking about the overall software industry.

You can make all of your own tools, which will be below the quality of a company who makes that heir speciality and risk your game suffering because of it, or you can outsource it to companies and save yourself a ton of money, getting better tools.

If the only caveat is that you can't include a free toolkit, then companies aren't going to be jumping over each other to sacrifice.

[Angrywolves]

Who said it had to be free.
I've said in other threads they could charge for it.
Come up with a unit price for it.
shrugs.

or let fans kickstart the money for it.

Somehow that doesn't seem EAish to me and I strongly suspect they would reject any kickstarter tooklit campaign out of hand.Veto it.

But it is a suggestion.

[Sanunes]

Angrywolves wrote...

Who said it had to be free.
I've said in other threads they could charge for it.
Come up with a unit price for it.
shrugs.

or let fans kickstart the money for it.

Somehow that doesn't seem EAish to me and I strongly suspect they would reject any kickstarter tooklit campaign out of hand.Veto it.

But it is a suggestion.

I highly doubt they could even mention the word Kickstarter before everyone on the internet started taking shots at them and I just can't see the average gaming being able to afford the tools they are using to make the game.

[Realmzmaster]

How many gamers on the PC would be willing to pay for a toolkit and then give away their mods for free? Modders are a minority in the PC minority. Even if you crowd fund it the amount of money raised may not cover the cost of a toolkit nor get third party software providers to agree to the kit.

[zMataxa]

Bioware is putting a huge investment into this new engine.
Give it time.
Perhaps they'll surprise us one year after release with some moddable options, instead of not all.
Or perhaps, it may come later yet, depending on the DLC plans.
Modding support in some form has been almost a tradition so far.
I would think the barriers to entry will get lower as Bioware gets comfortable with this new engine. I remain optimistic for the longer-term.
For DAI, I'm hoping maybe some basic moddable options may be considered.

Modifié par zMataxa, 21 janvier 2014 - 02:10 .

[PinkysPain]

It's not up to Bioware any more, it's up to EA. Nothing with current generation Frostbite will be moddable, since the framework has been designed with no consideration for modding. Without forethought moddability takes orders of magnitude more work ... look at what happened with NWN2 and Granny (which the Frosbite tools use as well I think).

Unless future Frostbites are designed with modding in mind the only way we will get a moddable game out of Bioware is if they leave EA.