133 réponses à ce sujet

[byeshoe]

eluvianix wrote...

What you linked us to does not deny that Vengeance could possess the corpse.

http://katiebour.tum...t-resource-this

I wanna feel sorry for anders but bloody hades he's an idiot 

Modifié par Girlgoten, 21 janvier 2014 - 12:42 .

[Orian Tabris]

General TSAR wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...
The point of the comparison is that mages are known to cause death and destruction. Terrorists do the same.

Wow, that's a terrible comparison.

Terrorists require planning, indoc, and materials to cause death and destruction on a wide scale, Mages don't, in fact they can just lose it for a second and kill an entire village.

Mages don't just "lose it for a second." And even if they did, Sten did that very thing, and he doesn't even HAVE magic.

Mages are born as mages, Iraqis are born as Iraqis. So saying that mages need to be locked up or dead because of the potential for them to kill is like saying Iraqis have the potential to kill, so they need the same treatment. Not every Iraqi is a terrorist, not every mage is evil or weak enough to try to kill people, or become an abomination.

The bottomline with my comparison, is that assuming someone is dangerous because of who they are, is injust. The end doesn't necessarily justify the means, not everyone should be painted witht he same brush.

I having nothing against the Chantry/templar practices on mages, but everyone deserves the right to live.

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Say someone kills your brother and you find the murderer and kill him. Its Justice right? But is also Vengeance? It is. 

No, that isn't Justice. That is full on Vengeance

The line between Justice and Vengeance almost doesn't exist. Its not full Vengeance, in many countries the punishment for killing someone with full conscious is death.

God himself has taken Vengeance upon mankind a lot of times. Though when Vengeance is holy its called "Retribution".

People kill and kill in the name of Justice, until it becomes mass murder and becomes a Vendetta. Everyone killing everyone for a simple grudge.

General TSAR wrote...

Justice is capturing the murderer alive and letting the powers that be decide his faith.

The powers? Hmm, you mean the Iranian government is an ideal power to determine what is Justice and what is Vengeance? The pure Justice will never exist in any world. Its always mixed with some Vengeance. Justice/vengeance is a cruel but necessary human emotion that has existed since bitrh of mankind. The world cannot function without it.

[Orian Tabris]

General TSAR wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...
Oh, so that makes it OK to persecute someone for something they might do?

It's not persecution, it's quarantine.

It's quarantine to put mages through the Harrowing. To keep them locked up afterwards is to percecute them.

[Dave of Canada]

Rassler wrote...

Actually your expectations are too low because you just made it very obvious you never romanced/friend Anders and never kept him alive. Because the Anders who talks to you before final battle is NOTHING close to a lunatic or a beast. He is changed, almost as if awakening Anders is back, but more serious.

I've actually done both Anders routes.

Friendship Anders is a lunatic, just because he's fighting some "cause" he thinks is righteous doesn't mean he isn't insane. His logic is incomprehensible, he's merged too much with Vengeance that "Anders" as a personality has ceased to be. Give it time and he's just going to get worse.

Rivalry leads to a ravenous beast, Anders has to keep Vengeance back or he'd be killing everything nearby during the Rivalry finale. He wanted to get rid of Vengeance, he wants help but he can't control himself from Vengeance who's imposing itself on him.

The emotion Justice is very complicated even on its purest form. Say someone kills your brother and you find the murderer and kill him. Its Justice right? But is also Vengeance? It is

That's flat out vengeance. Killing someone because they did something to you causes a non-stop loop of constant need for vengeance, proper justice through the authorities wouldn't cause such a thing.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 janvier 2014 - 12:47 .

[General TSAR]

You knucklehead.

Sten butchered a household, not an entire village, and why the hell are you bring up Iraqi born jihadists? Is your skull cracked worse than mother thought?

Orian Tabris wrote...
It's quarantine to put mages through the Harrowing. To keep them locked up afterwards is to percecute them.

Do you not understand the concept of quarantine?

Rassler wrote...

The powers? Hmm, you mean the Iranian government is an ideal power to determine what is Justice and what is Vengeance?

Don't put words in my mouth Anders fanboy. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 21 janvier 2014 - 12:52 .

[Lulupab]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Actually your expectations are too low because you just made it very obvious you never romanced/friend Anders and never kept him alive. Because the Anders who talks to you before final battle is NOTHING close to a lunatic or a beast. He is changed, almost as if awakening Anders is back, but more serious.

I've actually done both Anders routes.

Friendship Anders is a lunatic, just because he's fighting some "cause" he thinks is righteous doesn't mean he isn't insane. His logic is incomprehensible, he's merged too much with Vengeance that "Anders" as a personality has ceased to be. Give it time and he's just going to get worse.

Rivalry leads to a ravenous beast, Anders has to keep Vengeance back or he'd be killing everything nearby during the Rivalry finale. He wanted to get rid of Vengeance, he wants help but he can't control himself from Vengeance who's imposing itself on him.

I was talking about his last conversation before the last battle not his action in game. 

Dave of Canada wrote...
That's flat out vengeance. Killing someone because they did something to you causes a non-stop loop of constant need for vengeance, proper justice through the authorities wouldn't cause such a thing.

I answered this in my previous comment 

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Say someone kills your brother and you find the murderer and kill him. Its Justice right? But is also Vengeance? It is. 

No, that isn't Justice. That is full on Vengeance

The line between Justice and Vengeance almost doesn't exist. Its not full Vengeance, in many countries the punishment for killing someone with full conscious is death.

God himself has taken Vengeance upon mankind a lot of times. Though when Vengeance is holy its called "Retribution".

People kill and kill in the name of Justice, until it becomes mass murder and becomes a Vendetta. Everyone killing everyone for a simple grudge.

Yes there is a line between Justice and Vengeance, you just don't wanna see it

Vengeance is a negative emotion which helps form demons or corrupt spirits into demons

[Augustei]

Orian Tabris wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...
The point of the comparison is that mages are known to cause death and destruction. Terrorists do the same.

Wow, that's a terrible comparison.

Terrorists require planning, indoc, and materials to cause death and destruction on a wide scale, Mages don't, in fact they can just lose it for a second and kill an entire village.

Mages don't just "lose it for a second." And even if they did, Sten did that very thing, and he doesn't even HAVE magic.

Mages are born as mages, Iraqis are born as Iraqis. So saying that mages need to be locked up or dead because of the potential for them to kill is like saying Iraqis have the potential to kill, so they need the same treatment. Not every Iraqi is a terrorist, not every mage is evil or weak enough to try to kill people, or become an abomination.

The bottomline with my comparison, is that assuming someone is dangerous because of who they are, is injust. The end doesn't necessarily justify the means, not everyone should be painted witht he same brush.

I having nothing against the Chantry/templar practices on mages, but everyone deserves the right to live.

My god... did you just write that or am I imagining a cloud of the most idiotic comparison I have ever read before me?

[Lulupab]

General TSAR wrote...

You knucklehead.

Sten butchered a household, not an entire village, and why the hell are you bring up Iraqi born jihadists? Is your skull cracked worse than mother thought?

Orian Tabris wrote...
It's quarantine to put mages through the Harrowing. To keep them locked up afterwards is to percecute them.

Do you not understand the concept of quarantine?

Rassler wrote...

The powers? Hmm, you mean the Iranian government is an ideal power to determine what is Justice and what is Vengeance?

Don't put words in my mouth Anders fanboy. 

So who are the powers then? It was an assumption. You said powers I assumed governments. We have many governments, the world is not ruled by a single power. Don't change the subject. You know you didn't make any sense. Pure Justice doesn't exist.

[General TSAR]

And you automatically assumed Iran.

XxDeonxX wrote...

My god... did you just write that or am I imagining a cloud of the most idiotic comparison I have ever read before me?

It's funny that he tried to make Terrorism into an ethnic thing people are born into. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 21 janvier 2014 - 01:01 .

[CybAnt1]

You can have Justice without Vengeance, but you can't have Vengeance without Justice.

[Orian Tabris]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Say someone kills your brother and you find the murderer and kill him. Its Justice right? But is also Vengeance? It is. 

No, that isn't Justice. That is full on Vengeance

The line between Justice and Vengeance almost doesn't exist. Its not full Vengeance, in many countries the punishment for killing someone with full conscious is death.

God himself has taken Vengeance upon mankind a lot of times. Though when Vengeance is holy its called "Retribution".

People kill and kill in the name of Justice, until it becomes mass murder and becomes a Vendetta. Everyone killing everyone for a simple grudge.

Your example IS vegeance.

Doing the same bad thing to a person, that that person did to someone else is vengeance. Killing someone is bad, but giving them a chance to redeem or think on their mistake/s is justice.

[Hellion Rex]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You can have Justice without Vengeance, but you can't have Vengeance without Justice.

Yeah!....I think.

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Yes there is a line between Justice and Vengeance, you just don't wanna see it

Vengeance is a negative emotion which helps form demons or corrupt spirits into demons

Vengeance no matter how negative is a necessary emotion. Its too hard to tell the difference between Vengeance and Justice. Justice sometimes involves killing, it always has.

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

Justice doesn't exist in the first place and when it rare cases it does it is intertwined with Vengeance.

[General TSAR]

Rassler wrote...
Justice sometimes involves killing, it always has.

What?

[Orian Tabris]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You can have Justice without Vengeance, but you can't have Vengeance without Justice.

'Course you can! Justice and vengeance are two different paths down the same road.

Americans drive on the side of vengeance (the right side of the road), while the English drive on the side of justice (the left side of the road).

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 21 janvier 2014 - 01:07 .

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Yes there is a line between Justice and Vengeance, you just don't wanna see it

Vengeance is a negative emotion which helps form demons or corrupt spirits into demons

Vengeance no matter how negative is a necessary emotion. Its too hard to tell the difference between Vengeance and Justice. Justice sometimes involves killing, it always has.

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

Justice doesn't exist in the first place and when it rare cases it does it is intertwined with Vengeance.

For you, perhaps, it might be difficult to tell the difference. When you are an objective bystander, one can easily tell the difference between Justice and Vengeance. Isabela's right that can get muddy, but that doesn't mean there is a very big difference between Justice, which is objective retribution, versus Vengeance, which is entirely subjective.

[Hellion Rex]

General TSAR wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Justice sometimes involves killing, it always has.

What?

I actually kind of agree with him here. Things like death penalty, etc.

[General TSAR]

No, the way he worded it.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Yes there is a line between Justice and Vengeance, you just don't wanna see it

Vengeance is a negative emotion which helps form demons or corrupt spirits into demons

Vengeance no matter how negative is a necessary emotion. Its too hard to tell the difference between Vengeance and Justice. Justice sometimes involves killing, it always has.

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

Justice doesn't exist in the first place and when it rare cases it does it is intertwined with Vengeance.

Once again, no it's not hard to tell the difference and Anders is the worst people to listen too

Yes, sometimes justice does involve killing but it's still different from Vengeance

You seem to be the only one having a hard time realizing this

[Karach_Blade]

I think the topic is getting a bit derailed.

Good to see there won't be a zombie!Anders. As for Justice.....I have a bad feeling about him. I've played both romances, played just the friend/bro arc and had just as many playthroughs in which I killed him or let him live.I honestly don't care how they pull the angle for his fate as long as it's done well, even if it means he winds up executed.

[Hellion Rex]

General TSAR wrote...

No, the way he worded it.

Ah. Mea culpa.

[Orian Tabris]

Mr.House wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...
The point of the comparison is that mages are known to cause death and destruction. Terrorists do the same.

Wow, that's a terrible comparison.

Terrorists require planning, indoc, and materials to cause death and destruction on a wide scale, Mages don't, in fact they can just lose it for a second and kill an entire village.

Mages don't just "lose it for a second." And even if they did, Sten did that very thing, and he doesn't even HAVE magic.

Mages are born as mages, Iraqis are born as Iraqis. So saying that mages need to be locked up or dead because of the potential for them to kill is like saying Iraqis have the potential to kill, so they need the same treatment. Not every Iraqi is a terrorist, not every mage is evil or weak enough to try to kill people, or become an abomination.

The bottomline with my comparison, is that assuming someone is dangerous because of who they are, is injust. The end doesn't necessarily justify the means, not everyone should be painted witht he same brush.

I having nothing against the Chantry/templar practices on mages, but everyone deserves the right to live.

edited: removed inflammatory comment ~Mod05

Insulting? Who could POSSIBLY be insulted by this?

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 21 janvier 2014 - 03:54 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So I'd get to kill Anders again?

That would almost make it worth having to see him again.