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[Nightwriter]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How is it not ME2's fault that the galaxy is established as not having prepared for the Reapers by the start of ME3? ME3 actually broke ground by having the Alliance navy mobilize before the invasion of Earth.

Uh... maybe because ME3 was written so that its obvious that the events of ME2 had no impact on the Alliance brass, other than having them lock up the guy who actually did something about the Reapers. They are doing their hearing thing right up to the actual second the Reapers are upon them. This happens in ME3. How is it ME2's fault?

Because in a 3 year time gap between ME1 and ME3, ME2 establishes that nothing was done in the first two years, and then in the next 6 months or so (until the point of Arrival) does nothing to change that.

As ME2 is the game that not only establishes what the galaxy's reaction to ME1 was, but also establishes what happens in the timeframe of ME2 (including deciding the entire Arrival incident and lock-up), the responsiblity for ME2's narrative choices would fall on... ME2.

Imagine that.

Well now Professor, ME2 establishes some peculiar results for the events of ME1, ME3 some even more peculiar results for the events of ME2. Did locking Shepard up happen in ME2? Oh, it didn't. It happened in ME3. And I don't consider Arrival a part of ME2 at all. It's just a trashy piece of optional recontextualizing. And what do you know, it didn't even work as that. "You puled sum **** The Shepard!" indeed. Where's my trial? Oh, right. Couldn't hack it, with all his hack experience. Dismal.

What's the point of arguing which game is to blame?

If ME2 had looked farther ahead, the narrative would have been better.

If ME3 had looked behind more, the narrative would have been better.

Six of one, etc etc.

In the end the problem is with the narrative as a whole.

[spirosz]

If the writers actually planned a trilogy, the narrative would of been better.

[thehomeworld]

Mcfly616 wrote...

ME2's story still takes the cake when comes to being "pointless".

This, ME2's story was pointless ME3 had to pull double duty making up for all the fail that 2 was and try to make a thrid game out of it which in turn diminished the end product making it an OK continuation of ME but not a great or equal to ME sequel.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 22 janvier 2014 - 03:34 .

[CrutchCricket]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
What I meant by that was, Zaeed's isn't paid to keep his squad alive, only to fulfill the terms of his contracts.

This still isn't making me more confident in letting the guy lead. But I disagree with the implication that he would be able to keep people alive if only you specified it as a priority (and, really should you have to?) Zaeed is very much the "mad dog" and nowhere is this better demonstrated than his loyalty mission. He sets the whole place on fire on a whim, never considering the consequences, just in case the resulting chaos robs Vido of home field advantage. And the result: either it works but in typical "everybody else died" Zaeed fashion, or it costs him his revenge if Shepard isn't a total dick. There's ruthless, and then there's reckless and that's as fine a contrast between Torfan and Zaeed's mission, or Shepard and Zaeed himself as any I can think of.

"I don't plan, I just do"- the Joker's "dog chasing cars" speech in Dark Night would fit Zaeed better than it does its speaker, assuming of course that movie wasn't just two and a half hours of coincidences.

Come to think of it, nobody really fails in the job of the fire-team leader. The designated tech-specialist inexplicably freaking out and trying to close the jammed door (only to put their face in harm's way) and dying is not their fault at all. In round two, the fire-team leader gets shot, and life/death from that bullet depends on being the right/wrong choice.

Only someone "competant" (by BioWare's definition of it) is able to succeed *and* keep everyone alive. Zaeed is supposedly not one of those guys. I disagree with that, though. He's much better suited for the role than Jacob, IMO.

Yeah that was poorly implemented.

Shoot, I'd sooner choose Mordin for that role than Jacob.

*shrug. Garrus is the obvious choice, besides Miranda. Between my 2IC and my protege who's already Shepard Lite, I'm set for fire team leaders.

But yeah, I don't recall any specific claim to leadership in Jacob's past.

To that end, Zaeed gets the job done. Back in the day, long before ME3, I saw some banners around here in users' sigs of "Zaeed's mercenary company." For all his supposed failures, there are people who would follow this guy through hell because an old wardog who has proven his mettle will warrant that kind of respect. I've seen no such love for Jacob. Miranda is pretty dicey in that as well. She's not unproven, but it's harder for a woman to gain that kind of respect.

I don't expect the writers at BioWare to understand this kind of thing. I do expect them to think they do, though.

Interestingly enough, though, Miranda approves of the decision to put Zaeed in charge if you do it.

I don't think Zaeed does inspire any of that. You look at him and you see a grizzled old merc, and mercs don't get old or grizzled unless they're good, sure. So maybe you figure he's good at what he does and if you stick with him you'll be OK. But that's merely a first impression. You dig a little deeper you find his shortcomings. And then you decide you're better off elsewhere (or perhaps if you take over, as in the case of the Blue Suns).

My very first playthrough I actually did pick him as Fire Team leader. But back then I wasn't paying as much attention as I do now, and having never visited Zaeed much, I didn't get to hear all the stories where everyone died but him. If I did, I might've seen differently.

[grey_wind]

CrutchCricket wrote...
But yeah, I don't recall any specific claim to leadership in Jacob's past.

if you speak to Jacob right before Freedom's Progress, he reveals he used to be a Corsair, an independent starship captain who used to do "off the record" work for the Alliance.

Why such a potentially interesting plot point in dropped 5 minutes after you meet him is really bizarre, though.

[Nightwriter]

grey_wind wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
But yeah, I don't recall any specific claim to leadership in Jacob's past.

if you speak to Jacob right before Freedom's Progress, he reveals he used to be a Corsair, an independent starship captain who used to do "off the record" work for the Alliance.

Why such a potentially interesting plot point in dropped 5 minutes after you meet him is really bizarre, though.

Thought I vaguely recalled that the Corsairs served under independent starship captains.

[AlanC9]

grey_wind wrote...

Why such a potentially interesting plot point in dropped 5 minutes after you meet him is really bizarre, though.

The reason's pretty clear. The squadmate word budgets in ME2 weren't very large.

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...

The reason's pretty clear. The squadmate word budgets in ME2 weren't very large.

True, but it seems more relevant to his character than his father going insane, considering he's established at the start as the "he's with Cerberus but has a conscience" guy. Seems to me he'd be the perfect character to delve into the differences between Cerberus and Alliance black ops, which is pretty much what the corsair thing is since the point was for the Alliance to not acknowledge it.

[AlanC9]

Oh, I see. Yeah, his LM would have been a fine opportunity for going into this stuff.

[Nightwriter]

When I was first playing through Lazarus Station I thought that would be his purpose. He seemed intended to be the friendly character who'd been on both sides of the Alliance/Cerberus track and might be the only person who could relate to what Shepard was going through with the shift in patronage and the conflicted loyalties.

He was right where I was at. Frustrated with the Council/Alliance, lot of doubts about Cerberus.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The reason's pretty clear. The squadmate word budgets in ME2 weren't very large.

True, but it seems more relevant to his character than his father going insane,

Jacob will remember that 

[Excella Gionne]

grey_wind wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
But yeah, I don't recall any specific claim to leadership in Jacob's past.

if you speak to Jacob right before Freedom's Progress, he reveals he used to be a Corsair, an independent starship captain who used to do "off the record" work for the Alliance.

Why such a potentially interesting plot point in dropped 5 minutes after you meet him is really bizarre, though.

I hardly ever spoke to Jacob, because my FemShep would always be weird around him as if she liked him, it really bothered me so I mostly avoided him. Jacob's character could have had a lot of potential, but aside from his father haunting him, he's a pretty dull character and even more dull in ME3 in which he is even more duller when romance FAIL!

[N7Gold]

Last time I checked, no race has mastered the use of Mass Effect technology, a tecnology that the Reapers themselves created so that civilizations won't take so long to become a space travelling race with their own technology. No one knows how to create mass effect electromagnetic fields, because it's not their technology they are using, I'm surprised everyone forgets this.

[Dean_the_Young]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 ME2 wasn't entirely pointless. It did set up ME3's Genophage and Rannoch arcs fairly well.


What it didn't set up well was the main plot -- fighting the Reapers. Hence, that part of ME3 sucks.

Those two plotlines where started in ME, they where only expended in ME2.

Sure, but ME2's expansion on those things were valuable, namely in adding the perspective of the "other side" of both topics (Salarian take on the genophage, geth take on the geth/quarian conflict).

But the main plot was not expanded on in any real worthwhile sense. We learn the gory details behind Reaper harvesting, but that's about it. The Collectors are introduced in ME2, end in ME2, leaving us back at square-one as ME3 begins.

I agree with both thrusts of this.

I do feel one of ME2's redeeming features was the Genophage and Rannoch subplots. Not in terms of advancing or starting the plots: ME3 picks them both up for a self-contained arc that starts and ends in ME3, and it's rather hard to see how else they could have done it. Other than an Arrival-style catalyst leading the foreshadowing, ME2 left both arcs very vague about the future. But, rather, the tone and backstory of the arcs was expanded upon, which has its own value. Mordin's loyalty mission in particular is an excellent combination of character development (Mordin's guilt) and lore expansion (genophage history), with a Big Decision that serves as an appropriate catalyst for later developments. Legion's mission also gets points for developing the Geth as truly alien and different.


The Reaper plot, though... I think they got their order reversed. I feel ME2 should have been focusing on what the Reaper's motivations were, not their composition. Besides being easier to tie into a plot thread of finding a way to beat the Reapers (we look into the history of past cycles for the later, and happen to find the former), it would leave the whole 'Reapers are us' as a credible surprise reveal come ME3.

Faced with an imcomplete premise of what the Reapers goals are ('they want to prevent the rise of AI's/civilizations more powerful than them: they must be doing it for their own survival!'), ME3 could then play with the Reaper processing camps. The galaxy wonders why the Reapers are bothinger to capture planets and put people in camps, rather than gas us/nuke us from orbit. Shepard and crew break into a harvesting facility, see the people be processed, and realize the Reapers aren't just killing civilizations- they're converting them.

Description of effect could be better, but I can see it as a really scary/creepy mission in the game that gives us the two big Reaper points (composition and motivation) in a way that builds better off itself and avoids the sillyness of the ME2 Human Reaper being started before the Reapers.

[AlanC9]

N7Gold wrote...

Last time I checked, no race has mastered the use of Mass Effect technology, a tecnology that the Reapers themselves created so that civilizations won't take so long to become a space travelling race with their own technology. No one knows how to create mass effect electromagnetic fields, because it's not their technology they are using, I'm surprised everyone forgets this.

Everyone forgets this because it isn't true. It's not like the Reapers left starships lying around; the various organic races build their own.

Relays are a harder trick, but the Protheans had just about mastered it. The Conduit had all the range of a primary relay.

Modifié par AlanC9, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:29 .