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Just how big is the planet that Thedas is on? (Thedap)


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#51
Sylvius the Mad

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Angrywolves wrote...

The planet is not a magical entity.No proof it is.Sheesh.<_<

Nor is there proof it isn't.  But since magic is a thing in the Dragon Age universe, it would be foolish to ignore the possibility.

Physics and astronomy say it has to be a certain size to support life.
Sad certain people must be anti-science these days...:(

I love science.  I studied Astrophysics.  I could do all those same calculations.

But I also studied Epistemology.  Since we don't know enough about how science (which includes magic) works in the dragon age universe, I'd say its premature to jump to those conclusions.

#52
Angrywolves

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That was done on earth.
Earth isn't magical.Magic wasn't required.

I don't know why Gaider decided to limit Thedas just to an area and not include the entire planet.

Maybe he will someday.

"Nor is there proof it isn't.  But since magic is a thing in the Dragon
Age universe, it would be foolish to ignore the possibility."

No proof there is either. and no proof /evidence that magic governs the planet's size or anything else governing its planetary behavior.

<_<

Modifié par Angrywolves, 17 janvier 2014 - 01:00 .


#53
Sylvius the Mad

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Yes, using conventional astronomy those are correct conclusions.

We don't have reason to believe that conventional astronomy applies within the Dragon Age universe.

#54
Angrywolves

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nor is there evidence it doesn't..
You believe whatever you want to about Thedas.

Have a nice day.:innocent:

Modifié par Angrywolves, 17 janvier 2014 - 01:03 .


#55
Killdren88

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ZeroPhoenix94k wrote...

Now that this thread kind of mentioned it, I think a DA game that has the protagonist searching for new lands would be absolutely amazing. Discovery Age? Exodus Age? EA... No, nevermind.


Yes indeed. The idea is quite tantalizing. The PProtag can be a very skilled Sea captain with their crew who is renowned for getting their trade goods to port on time and as well as a skilled fighter fending off pirates. And the New time you are in port you are approached by a group of well funded intellecutals or a king of some sort about saling beyond the Map Boarders of Thedas.

#56
Thomas Andresen

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Yes, using conventional astronomy those are correct conclusions.

We don't have reason to believe that conventional astronomy applies within the Dragon Age universe.

This is one of the reasons for which I love the Discworld universe.

#57
Sylvius the Mad

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Angrywolves wrote...

You believe whatever you want to about Thedas.

In the absence of evidence, I prefer to believe nothing at all.

#58
Rotward

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QueenPurpleScrap wrote...

Yes, maybe the Qunari left because they were outcasts among their people. That would be an interesting twist. And if their book turns out to be a lie . . .

... "if"? There's no if. The book is the opinion of some douche Qunari some number of years ago, that the cult latched on to. 

Modifié par Rotward, 17 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .


#59
metatheurgist

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Angrywolves wrote...
The planet is not a magical entity.No proof it is.Sheesh.<_<

The planet has a connection to the fade. It also grows plants that can be used for magical effects. Close enough? Image IPB

#60
Angrywolves

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nope not even close.

The fade touches the planet.Has nothing to do with the planet's size.

Plants on earth can have medicinal qualities.Again has nothing to do with the size of the earth.

Players can believe whatever they like.I doubt Gaider will write about it and clear things up anytime soon.

#61
Quill74Pen

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...

Odds are, it's an Earth-size planet, at least if Bioware is going by known scientific standards.

Get much smaller, and the odds of a planet's core solidifying increase, which leads to a loss of a magnetic field, which in turn allows cosmic radiation to strike the surface of a planet unimpeded. Needless to say, that's bad for development of complex life forms.

Get much bigger, and you could wind up with tectonic plates never forming, thus freezing the crust largely into place, preventing the recycling of minerals, metals, water and so on. Mind you, this scale is one that works on the order of tens of millions of years.

Though, in both cases, there could be some magical force that maintains desirable conditions.


Heh. What's the old saying? "Magic is just science that has yet to be explained." Well, that's how I've heard it, at any rate.

#62
Quill74Pen

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Odds are, it's an Earth-size planet, at least if Bioware is going by known scientific standards.

Pfft. They don't even do scientific standards in their SF games, so what do you expect? Maybe the DA team would do better - they certainly appear to make a better effort in keeping their lore consistent - but I've lost all respect for the ME team in that regard.

Get much smaller, and the odds of a planet's core solidifying increase, which leads to a loss of a magnetic field, which in turn allows cosmic radiation to strike the surface of a planet unimpeded. Needless to say, that's bad for development of complex life forms.

Get much bigger, and you could wind up with tectonic plates never forming, thus freezing the crust largely into place, preventing the recycling of minerals, metals, water and so on. Mind you, this scale is one that works on the order of tens of millions of years.

Not quite correct. A small planet with a high metal content would work, except that it probably couldn't hold an atmosphere for long. And tectonic plates depend on a planet's age rather than it's size, at least in the size range we're talking about. However, get too big, and you'll have a high helium content in the atmosphere.

Still, the possible range of useful planets goes from about 0.5 Earth masses to about 3.5 Earth masses, with some uncertainty. You don't need magic for a plausible non-Earth-sized planet with a civilization. 


I like you. Science discussion in a fantasy-setting forum of all places! Yeah! Heh. There's probably more science discussion in this thread than in some red state schools. ;)

In all seriousness, though, the figures you quote do sound familiar. When I wrote the original post, it was right before my bedtime and I was writing from a sleep-deprived mind swirling with the tidbits I'd picked up from reading countless science stories on the web — some more reputable than others!

BTW, how does Mars compare to Earth in terms of size? Isn't it roughly two-thirds the size of Earth? If so, well, look what happened to that poor world ... then again, it *is* farther out from the Sun, and its core probably doesn't contain as many heavy elements as Earth's does.

#63
Han Shot First

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Quill74Pen wrote...

Odds are, it's an Earth-size planet, at least if Bioware is going by known scientific standards.

Get much smaller, and the odds of a planet's core solidifying increase, which leads to a loss of a magnetic field, which in turn allows cosmic radiation to strike the surface of a planet unimpeded. Needless to say, that's bad for development of complex life forms.

Get much bigger, and you could wind up with tectonic plates never forming, thus freezing the crust largely into place, preventing the recycling of minerals, metals, water and so on. Mind you, this scale is one that works on the order of tens of millions of years.


Good post.

#64
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Thedap can be flat (if developers will it) and is as big as Australia.

#65
Ieldra

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Quill74Pen wrote...
BTW, how does Mars compare to Earth in terms of size? Isn't it roughly two-thirds the size of Earth? If so, well, look what happened to that poor world ... then again, it *is* farther out from the Sun, and its core probably doesn't contain as many heavy elements as Earth's does.

The important attribute is mass - and Mars is about 0.1 Earth masses. Its radius is about 0.5 Earth radii but even with a similar composition that would result only in 0.125 Earth masses. Mars' problem was that it couldn't hold Nitrogen in its atmosphere because it's too light. Then add that it lost its magnetic field (there are, I believe several factors contributing to this) so that the solar winds could damage the atmosphere further. As a result, Mars' atmosphere now consists mostly of the heaviest common gas - CO2.

If the DA team decides to follow scientific principles (which - as opposed to the ME team who didn't - they don't need to), they'll have to set a desired size and then calculate if the planet "works", so to speak. Roughly Earth-sized would be simplest, though. While the other stuff is simple to calculate, the effects of non-Earth gravity levels on life forms are not so easy to estimate, and we do need the existing species.

Edit:
One thing I always find fun to speculate about is the effect of magic on the world as a whole and its physical attributes. We have this different aspect of the world called the Fade, and it is not purely a mental space so it must have some physical characteristics. How do those interact with the classic physical characteristics? And what does Morrigan mean when she speaks of a place beyond the world (I don't recall her exact phrasing at this time)? Another planet perhaps? 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:20 .


#66
Quill74Pen

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Perhaps Morrigan is referring to the Many Worlds school of thought? Kind of like what's been written about in the books "The Long Earth" and "The Long War" by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Baxter.

In-universe, it's known that lyrium is found not only on Thedas, but also in the Fade ... so maybe it's acting as some sort of connective tissue between related worlds?

#67
Ieldra

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The Woldan wrote...
Easy. If we assume Thedas is on a rock planet with an iron core similar to earth it absolutely HAS to be earth sized, otherwise gravity would be either much less or a lot more. (Bigger = more mass = more gravity)

Not quite. The surface gravity of a planet is proportional to mass and inversely proportional to the square of its radius. So given equal mass, a smaller and denser planet will have a higher surface gravity than a bigger and lighter one. Also, mass goes up proportionally to the cube of the radius, given equal composition. That means, for instance, that given equal density, a planet of three Earth-masses would have a radius and a surface gravity of 1.44 times Earth's and a surface area roughly twice the size of Earth's.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:39 .


#68
Guest_Puddi III_*

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It would be cool if Thedas had some more alien geography like the Cocoon or the Traveler or the floating Black City existing somewhere outside of the Fade. Seems like a waste of perfectly good magic to just have it populate the world rather than shape it.

#69
Ieldra

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Filament wrote...
It would be cool if Thedas had some more alien geography like the Cocoon or the Traveler or the floating Black City existing somewhere outside of the Fade. Seems like a waste of perfectly good magic to just have it populate the world rather than shape it.

The Fade hasn't got enough alien geography for you? :lol:

As for large-scale magical effects, there is the Blight, which is the result of a magical disease (the Taint).

In general, I agree though. It would be interesting to see some more large-scale effects of magic. You need to be careful with such things though, since they can easily change how the world feels to people in unintended ways.

#70
DarthSliver

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As much as l would like to see the world Thedas is on, I just don't think that is in the cards for Dragon Age.

#71
Cecilia

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Where did the Qunari come from? And for that matter humanity? Thedas, thus far at least, is a continent. One of at least two, and likely more, considering the migration of the Qunari and humanity. From what we know so far only elves and the Fex can be considered native to the known continent.

The humans of Thedas are much like real life humans in that they have a tendency to shape history to suit the powerful so theirs can understandably be permitted a lapse in documenting pre migration history. However the tenacious pragmatism of the Qunari does not allow for such an oversight. Given that the ancient Pyramids in Seharon( or is it Par Vollen, I forget) depict giant horned deities, there appears to have been interaction between humanity and the horn race that now are identified as Qunari or kossith (focus people; semantics are not the topic) prior to the continent we know of in the game.

That, and other pre migration history, is the history I am most interested in learning more about.

 

Since most of the countries/civs in the DA universe seem to be based not-very-loosely on actual civs (as in - people in Orlais speaking French), I'm going to guess that the Qunari come from someplace similar to the Middle East or Central Asia.

 

Tevinter is a very good mirror of the Roman Empire - they conquered the Elves (the Greeks) and appropriated a lot of Elvish culture (like the Romans did with Greek culture) even worshiping what are potentially altered aspects of Elven gods. There's a bit of timey wimey time mashing going on, but the Qunari remind me of the Ottoman empire - the Qun has tenets that closely resemble Islam - which conquered most of what remained of the Roman empire and eventually reached as far as the borders of Spain (Antiva/Rivaini) before France pushed them back. So there's that constant struggle between Europe/Christian civilizations and the Turkish/Islamic civilization. 

 

So~ travel beyond Par Vollen and we'll probably find the DA equivalent of the Far East - China, Japan, Korea, India, SE Asia - technologically advanced civilizations that may have driven the Qunari out of their lands (or driven the original Thedosian humans out of their lands) as barbarians. 

 

There's an interesting species issue though - Bioware could potentially end up in a lot of trouble if they do expand the world and make everyone but the Europeans humanoid, but not human. We know for a fact that not all humans are white, but all human culture appears to be Western - which begs the question of how these two questions essentially reconcile themselves without the assumed existence of human cultures beyond what we know of Thedas.

 

 

Yes, using conventional astronomy those are correct conclusions.

We don't have reason to believe that conventional astronomy applies within the Dragon Age universe.

 

While there is magic in DA, most of the world does appear to follow physical/natural laws that apply to our world: seasons change, there's one moon and one sun, time passes, gravity applies, water freezes and ice melts, fire burns, two biological genders, cold poles etc. 

 

More intuitively - not from an epistemology or physics perspective, but from a literary one, we know for a fact that Thedas is basically drawn from our world - it even borrows our own modern languages. Given that origin, it's a fairly logical conclusion to infer that not only the size of the planet and its axis of rotation, but also the general distribution of cultures  exist in such a way as to mirror our own world. There's a collision of timelines of course - some parts of Thedas seem to be stuck towards the end of the Roman Empire/Constantinople, some parts seem stuck around the Medieval Era, some parts seem to have moved into the Renaissance, etc. - but all of it is clearly drawn from our own history.

 

Also, the Fade seems less a physical entity (in the sense of having an existence in terms of physics) and more of a spiritual one. Remember - in DA:I when you're in the Fade you learn that man made things - desks/chairs - still function within the limitations of their intended purpose, while natural things often behave in bizarre and unexpected ways, which implies that the Fade is a place that reflects intent and purpose as opposed to physical nature - the spirit of the thing as opposed to its physical form, so to speak. Dwarves and those who have been cut off from their own spiritual selves also lack or have a weakened connection to the Fade, which further reinforces the idea that the Fade is not a scientific force but a supernatural one - it is not meant to exist as a physical space, but rather as a realm of dreams and intentions. 


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