276 réponses à ce sujet

[Bourne Endeavor]

At this stage of design, it would be a relatively poor marketing practice to abruptly alter the 'face' of the franchise. Were I to hypothesis the rationality behind focusing on only a male hero. Simply put, the perception is Shepard is an avatar for the player, their de facto link to the game. Whilst unfortunate the reality is there is a substantially larger male audience than there is a female one. In addition, advertisement and CGI cost an excess sum and neither BioWare nor EA was willing to front double the cost, especially not to please a minority. So they opted for the safer, obvious choice.

Frankly, I find the irony somewhat humorous. Women are less drawn or flat out avoid games due to few presenting them in a meaningful light. In contrast, developers are weary of risking non sexualized marketing for fear they will not attract women to their video game. It is a perpetual cycle, although developers have less of a standing ground.

[CroGamer002]

[Tree fox]

Jennifer Hale is a TERRIBLE actress, for the life of me I can't figure out why anybody likes her. When Femshep is saying lines they sound, bored, uninterested, and insincere. She sounds flat, monotone, and she whispers her lines. I couldn't get 1/8 of the way through the game with Femshep before I had to go back to the male Shep.
That's my opinion, Mark Meer is a way better VA than Jennifer Hale.

[Doveberry]

Tree fox wrote...

Jennifer Hale is a TERRIBLE actress, for the life of me I can't figure out why anybody likes her. When Femshep is saying lines they sound, bored, uninterested, and insincere. She sounds flat, monotone, and she whispers her lines. I couldn't get 1/8 of the way through the game with Femshep before I had to go back to the male Shep.
That's my opinion, Mark Meer is a way better VA than Jennifer Hale.

Listen to this.

Anyone that does not think that this video settles the argument of which VA is better just isn't listening, or is in denial. I have nothing against Meer, but he simply does not stand a chance when compared to Hale.

I'm not saying that I'm an authority on voice actors, but I have been singing since before I could walk, and I have studied music in several music schools for most of my life. Voices are very important to me, and it's something that I spend a lot of time analyzing, be it in the shape of spoken words or song. Hale's voice is beautiful and expressive, but has that edge that is needed for a space commander. Meer's voice expresses absolutely nothing. It's the audial equivalent of chewing on cardboard.

[Tree fox]

Doveberry wrote...

Tree fox wrote...

Jennifer Hale is a TERRIBLE actress, for the life of me I can't figure out why anybody likes her. When Femshep is saying lines they sound, bored, uninterested, and insincere. She sounds flat, monotone, and she whispers her lines. I couldn't get 1/8 of the way through the game with Femshep before I had to go back to the male Shep.
That's my opinion, Mark Meer is a way better VA than Jennifer Hale.

Listen to this.

Anyone that does not think that this video settles the argument of which VA is better just isn't listening, or is in denial. I have nothing against Meer, but he simply does not stand a chance when compared to Hale.

I'm not saying that I'm an authority on voice actors, but I have been singing since before I could walk, and I have studied music in several music schools for most of my life. Voices are very important to me, and it's something that I spend a lot of time analyzing, be it in the shape of spoken words or song. Hale's voice is beautiful and expressive, but has that edge that is needed for a space commander. Meer's voice expresses absolutely nothing. It's the audial equivalent of chewing on cardboard.

Her pauses are awkward, and she puts to much emotion in some lines that I think don't deserve the added emotion. Meer puts a serious, no bull**** tone into maleshep.
I watched that video a few times now, replayed parts,and I still like Mark better and i'm not in denial.

[Doveberry]

Fair enough, I never really expected to change anobody's opinion. But I still maintain that it is very clear that Hale is the superior voice actress.

One thing I have considered, though, is that Meer's complete lack of nuance and emotion might actually be to his advantage in some cases. Men tend not to be very focused on, or even aware of, a lot of emotional signals that are expressed (both through voice and body language). Just as women are usually physically weaker than men, men are actually biologically constructed for less attention on this kind of detail. For this reason, male players may, to some extent, feel more comfortable with a voice that is not very expressive.

I'm not saying that this is how it is, but it's something I've considered as a possibility. Mainly because I don't think I've ever seen a woman claim that Meer is a good voice actor.

Modifié par Doveberry, 19 mars 2011 - 11:46 .

[ReiSilver]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
In contrast, developers are weary of risking non sexualized marketing for fear they will not attract women to their video game.

Tip: Designers don't put in sexualised female characters to attract women. (or was that a typo?)

Honestly I kind of get tired having to point out the number of people I've met alone that didn't buy Mass Effect because they thought it was another generic space marine shooter. They had no idea you could play as anyone other then default Sheploo and that just wasn't interesting to them. The game box doesn't even point out that you can make your own character. It's a feature they seem ashamed of for some bizarre reason, maybe because it would make it look different from Halo?
Unfortunately bone-headed marketers have the misguided belief that you need a straight white male lead to sell an RPG
The stupid of marketing burns

[blacqout]

I just watched the video, and i have a new found appreciation of just how superior Meer's performance is. Hale's phrasing is really awkward - lots of weird pauses and some of the lines seemed to be rushed towards the end.

As for Meer's lack of emotion -- i think you should compare the opening dialogue of Mass Effect 2. When male Shepard asks his LI to get to safety, it sounds like a plea. When female Shepard does the same, it's barked like an order.

Modifié par blacqout, 19 mars 2011 - 11:52 .

[Tree fox]

Doveberry wrote...

Fair enough, I never really expected to change anobody's opinion. But I still maintain that it is very clear that Hale is the superior voice actress.

One thing I have considered, though, is that Meer's complete lack of nuance and emotion might actually be to his advantage in some cases. Men tend not to be very focused on, or even aware of, a lot of emotional signals that are expressed (both through voice and body language). Just as women are usually physically weaker than men, men are actually biologically constructed for less attention on this kind of detail. For this reason, male players may, to some extent, feel more comfortable with a voice that is not very expressive.

I'm not saying that this is how it is, but it's something I've considered as a possibility. Mainly because I don't think I've ever seen a woman claim that Meer is a good voice actor.

I agree with everything except Meer having no emotion in his voice.

Modifié par Tree fox, 19 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[InvaderErl]

Doveberry wrote...

Fair enough, I never really expected to change anobody's opinion. But I still maintain that it is very clear that Hale is the superior voice actress.

When you consider the range of characters that Meer plays in Mass Effect, not to mention Bioware games in general I find Meer has much more versatility in the types of characters he plays than Hale does. Hale almost always seems to use her own voice with slight changes whereas I didn't even know Meer was voicing so many characters until I read it.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 19 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[Tree fox]

repost sorry

Modifié par Tree fox, 19 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[ReiSilver]

Doveberry wrote...
 Just as women are usually physically weaker than men, men are actually biologically constructed for less attention on this kind of detail. For this reason, male players may, to some extent, feel more comfortable with a voice that is not very expressive.

Actually there's fair evidence that suggests this is something learned, like most gender behaviour, rather then something innate . Boys are raised to think about themselves, girls are raised to think about what others will think of them.
I actually know a few normal * women who just don't get physical emotional cues and get a hard time for not being hyper aware of other's unspoken feelings.

As for Hale, I dunno I wouldn't put it down to 'emotion' but conviction, she's committing to the lines more then Meer is in that video you posted, though I think Meer gets better in ME2 and some parts in ME1, maybe when he's more comfortable with how to play the role.

*(as in not in any way sciopathic or with some other anti-social condition)

Modifié par ReiSilver, 19 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[android654]

Doveberry wrote...

Tree fox wrote...

Jennifer Hale is a TERRIBLE actress, for the life of me I can't figure out why anybody likes her. When Femshep is saying lines they sound, bored, uninterested, and insincere. She sounds flat, monotone, and she whispers her lines. I couldn't get 1/8 of the way through the game with Femshep before I had to go back to the male Shep.
That's my opinion, Mark Meer is a way better VA than Jennifer Hale.

Listen to this.

Anyone that does not think that this video settles the argument of which VA is better just isn't listening, or is in denial. I have nothing against Meer, but he simply does not stand a chance when compared to Hale.

I'm not saying that I'm an authority on voice actors, but I have been singing since before I could walk, and I have studied music in several music schools for most of my life. Voices are very important to me, and it's something that I spend a lot of time analyzing, be it in the shape of spoken words or song. Hale's voice is beautiful and expressive, but has that edge that is needed for a space commander. Meer's voice expresses absolutely nothing. It's the audial equivalent of chewing on cardboard.

^This!

One of these actors can emote through voice alone, the other can not, or hasn't learned yet. Also that's an interesting viewpoint on voices by itself. It actually got me thinking, thank you.

Modifié par android654, 20 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[InvaderErl]

Which is a ridiculous thing to say. Whether or not you like his Shepard, Meer can definitely pull his weight.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 20 mars 2011 - 12:04 .

[Doveberry]

Tree fox wrote...

Doveberry wrote...

Fair enough, I never really expected to change anobody's opinion. But I still maintain that it is very clear that Hale is the superior voice actress.

One thing I have considered, though, is that Meer's complete lack of nuance and emotion might actually be to his advantage in some cases. Men tend not to be very focused on, or even aware of, a lot of emotional signals that are expressed (both through voice and body language). Just as women are usually physically weaker than men, men are actually biologically constructed for less attention on this kind of detail. For this reason, male players may, to some extent, feel more comfortable with a voice that is not very expressive.

I'm not saying that this is how it is, but it's something I've considered as a possibility. Mainly because I don't think I've ever seen a woman claim that Meer is a good voice actor.

I agree with everything except Meer having no emotion in his voice.

I'll admit to sounding a bit harsh. It's possible that he, for instance, does a much better job in ME2. I never really gave him a chance after ME1. And perhaps it is simply so that I am unable to hear Meer's voice the way you do, simply because I am so focused on expression and emotion.

Modifié par Doveberry, 20 mars 2011 - 12:06 .

[Inspectre]

InvaderErl wrote...

When you consider the range of
characters that Meer plays in Mass Effect, not to mention Bioware games
in general I find Meer has much more versatility in the types of
characters he plays than Hale does. Hale almost always seems to use her
own voice with slight changes whereas I didn't even know Meer was
voicing so many characters until I read it.

He does not, she does not, and really?  I noticed him every time, he has the same voice, same 'personality'.  He's pretty hard to miss, most of the other actors in ME1-2 have skill.

I can't stand his voice, so every character he talks annoys me to no end.  It's like fingernails on chalkboard bad.

InvaderErl wrote...

Which is a ridiculous thing to say. Whether or not you like his Shepard, Meer can definitely pull his weight.

I didn't know Meer was 2 lbs.

He is seriously bad.  It always sounded like they gave this job to some guy who was walking by Bioware HQ, like they couldn't find anyone who actually cared about acting.

There is a reason Hale gets higher billing on the credits.

I'm male, and I can admit when a guy just plain stinks.  You guys have to be in denial.  Maybe it's subliminal, maybe something else, but Meer sucks.

Modifié par Dragon XIX, 01 mars 2013 - 01:04 .

[android654]

Can you honestly compare or   to any of Meer's lines in the game? Can't you feel the difference between the two when you hear them speak?

Modifié par android654, 20 mars 2011 - 02:14 .

[Pwener2313]

Femshep? Who's that.....

[Bourne Endeavor]

ReiSilver wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
In contrast, developers are weary of risking non sexualized marketing for fear they will not attract women to their video game.

Tip: Designers don't put in sexualised female characters to attract women. (or was that a typo?)

I had meant would enough women be interested to offset the additional cost if they marketed non sexualized female character. To use Mass Effect, if BioWare decided to market Femshep, their marketing bill would be doubled; keeping in mind this includes hiring a model for Femshep, otherwise they risk a whole new slew of favoritism complaints. They now have to justify the cost and unfortunately few developers do, instead rationalizing, "Hey the female option is there. Just look for it." There is subsequently the risk of confusing their audience, although I firmly believe that adheres more to the, "Viewers Are Morons" trope, then anything else.

Admittedly, I should have altered my statement to "enough women" to belie confusion.

Dragon XIX wrote...

I'm male, and I can admit when a guy just plain stinks.  You guys have to be in denial.  Maybe it's subliminal, maybe something else, but Meer sucks.

I more logical conclusion is preference. Frankly, the hatred Meer receives is ludicrous. You are free to dislike his approach and he is certainly far from flawless but the notion he is some abomination to voice acting is when my face hits my palm. I do not mean to imply this is your opinion but from observation since Mass Effect's release, that ridiculous belief seems to top up far too frequently.

Personally, I like them both. Neither are flawless and often have moments where one trumps the other, at least by my assessment. For instance, undeniably in the vid linked here, Hale is superior. Likewise, I find Meer's best work is through Tali's loyalty mission, if renegade.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 20 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[Almostfaceman]

Doveberry wrote...

Fair enough, I never really expected to change anobody's opinion. But I still maintain that it is very clear that Hale is the superior voice actress.

One thing I have considered, though, is that Meer's complete lack of nuance and emotion might actually be to his advantage in some cases. Men tend not to be very focused on, or even aware of, a lot of emotional signals that are expressed (both through voice and body language). Just as women are usually physically weaker than men, men are actually biologically constructed for less attention on this kind of detail. For this reason, male players may, to some extent, feel more comfortable with a voice that is not very expressive.

I'm not saying that this is how it is, but it's something I've considered as a possibility. Mainly because I don't think I've ever seen a woman claim that Meer is a good voice actor.

It's subjective and the only thing very clear is that you'd like to believe that everyone should agree with you.  You may as well be telling us it's clear that chocolate milk is superior to strawberry.  Give it up.   It's awesome you prefer Hale's voice acting it's nice people have a choice with Shepard.

I happen to prefer Mark Meer's voice acting - this doesn't mean anyone else should.

[Naltair]

I prefer mark Meer and personally find Hale's performance in ME1 and ME2 lackluster I often cringe at her delivery at times.

That does not mean she isn't good I feel she is great but I just can't get into a female Shepard mainly because of that.

[Almostfaceman]

Dragon XIX wrote...

I didn't know Meer was 2 lbs.

He is seriously bad.  It always sounded like they gave this job to some guy who was walking by Bioware HQ, like they couldn't find anyone who actually cared about acting.

There is a reason Hale gets higher billing on the credits.

I'm male, and I can admit when a guy just plain stinks.  You guys have to be in denial.  Maybe it's subliminal, maybe something else, but Meer sucks.

You got a serious case of the "everyone-should-think-like-I-do's".  We don't all think like you do.  It's what makes us all unique special little snowflakes.  Get used to it and get over yourself.  

[Doveberry]

Almostfaceman wrote...
It's subjective

I actually don't think that it is in this case (at least not completely), and I always make a point of discerning between subjectivity and objectivity. The truth in this case, as far as I am able to tell, is that Hale has a lot more emotion in her delivery (and commitment, as someone mentioned higher up in this thread). That is what I see as a fact when listening to the two voices. I have not yet seen anyone make a proper argument against this.

More emotion and more conviction makes the delivery of a line more convincing. This does, of course, depend on what every situation demands, but overall this is actually the way it is. This does not mean that you cannot prefer Mark Meer as a voice actor, and I never said anything about that. These are the criteria by which I have attempted to judge their skills as voice actors, and when the base requirement for good voice acting is that it be emotionally convincing, Hale comes out on top.

I have heard the argument that Meer's voice is convincing precisely because he shows no emotion, and I'd like to hear someone properly elaborate on that. For me, this seems like an odd argument, and I think that here is where the subjectivity comes in. Either you want your Shepard to be a "badass" (which to me seems sort of juvenile), or you want him/her to be relatable. I, obviously, think that the relatable Shepard is more convincing (which is, I admit, a subjective statement), but I'd very much like to hear good arguments from those that prefer the more detached version.

Almostfaceman wrote...
and the only thing very clear is that you'd like to believe that everyone should agree with you.  You may as well be telling us it's clear that chocolate milk is superior to strawberry.  Give it up.   It's awesome you prefer Hale's voice acting it's nice people have a choice with Shepard.

I happen to prefer Mark Meer's voice acting - this doesn't mean anyone else should.

You seem oddly defensive. I've never wanted anyone to agree with me. I love a good argument. If someone points out flaws in my logic, then I'm more likely to be thankful than hostile. You, on the other hand, appear to give Mark Meer undeserved credit simply based on the fact that you prefer him (judging by your disproportionate animosity). And you automatically see my comments in a negative light just because I do not agree with you. For me, this was never about preference. If you want to have a proper discussion about this, then I more than welcome it. But please don't just throw accusations at me. Give me arguments instead.

Modifié par Doveberry, 20 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[Almostfaceman]

Doveberry wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
It's subjective

I actually don't think that it is in this case (at least not completely), and I always make a point of discerning between subjectivity and objectivity. The truth in this case, as far as I am able to tell, is that Hale has a lot more emotion in her delivery (and commitment, as someone mentioned higher up in this thread). That is what I see as a fact when listening to the two voices. I have not yet seen anyone make a proper argument against this.

More emotion and more conviction makes the delivery of a line more convincing. This does, of course, depend on what every situation demands, but overall this is actually the way it is. This does not mean that you cannot prefer Mark Meer as a voice actor, and I never said anything about that. These are the criteria by which I have attempted to judge their skills as voice actors, and when the base requirement for good voice acting is that it be emotionally convincing, Hale comes out on top.

I have heard the argument that Meer's voice is convincing precisely because he shows no emotion, and I'd like to hear someone properly elaborate on that. For me, this seems like an odd argument, and I think that here is where the subjectivity comes in. Either you want your Shepard to be a "badass" (which to me seems sort of juvenile), or you want him/her to be relatable. I, obviously think that the relatable Shepard is more convincing (which is, I admit, a subjective statement), but I'd very much like to hear good arguments from those that prefer the more detached version.

Almostfaceman wrote...
and the only thing very clear is that you'd like to believe that everyone should agree with you.  You may as well be telling us it's clear that chocolate milk is superior to strawberry.  Give it up.   It's awesome you prefer Hale's voice acting it's nice people have a choice with Shepard.

I happen to prefer Mark Meer's voice acting - this doesn't mean anyone else should.

You seem oddly defensive. I've never wanted anyone to agree with me. I love a good argument. If someone points out flaws in my logic, then I'm more likely to be thankful than hostile. You, on the other hand, appear to give Mark Meer undeserved credit simply based on the fact that you prefer him. And you automatically see my comments in a negative light just because I do not agree with you. For me, this was never about preference. If you want to have a proper discussion about this, then I more than welcome it. But please don't just throw accusations at me. Give me arguments instead.

Take it any way you want it, it's totally subjective regarding who you prefer.  It's like two people watching the same movie and one person hating it and the other loving it.  One person says the acting is great and the other says it's awful.  It's subjective.  No one will be able to convince you that you don't hear more emotion in Hale's performance - because you hear more emotion in Hale's performance.  I don't.  I observe things differently than you do, because I'm not you.

[Inspectre]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
I more logical conclusion is preference. Frankly, the hatred Meer receives is ludicrous. You are free to dislike his approach and he is certainly far from flawless but the notion he is some abomination to voice acting is when my face hits my palm.
 

In my opinion, there is only one voice actor worse than Meer, and that would be Nolan North.  There are many, many better VAs out there, it's just really suprising that Bioware went with Marko here.

Almostfaceman wrote...

You got a serious case of the
"everyone-should-think-like-I-do's".  We don't all think like you do.
 It's what makes us all unique special little snowflakes.  Get used to
it and get over yourself.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

You don't know me, pal.

I don't want anyone to think like me.  I was just attacking Meer, like you guy's were attacking Hale.

Modifié par Dragon XIX, 20 mars 2011 - 04:07 .