146 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Nope. Better boss, but equally stupid character.

[CrutchCricket]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

To be honest, I don't quite understand all the "Kai Leng sucks" sentiment on BSN. He's not even close to one of my favorite antagonists, but I didn't especially expect him to be. He's there to supply a few cutscenes and two boss fights, and that's about it. Is he fairly one-dimensional? Sure, but so were Captain Wasea, Dr. Saleon, the Blue Suns guy organizing the attack on Garrus, and a bunch of other villains who served a limited purpose.

None of those were set up as Shepard's nemesis/arch-rival. One-note characters are a dime a dozen in any game so no one's going to bat an eye at any of those. But for Leng, the guy who's supposed to be the Dragon to the supposedly secondary but far more visible villains and "the only one who could stop Shepard", an inverted mirror image of the hero in so many ways, being one-note is not acceptable.

CloneShep is more interesting than Leng, but (s)he's also impossible to take 100% seriously. For starters, if creating a clone like that is possible in the ME Universe, I find it hard to believe that we wouldn't have stumbled across mercs trafficking the technology, or krogan trying to clone themselves to compensate for the genophage, or *something* weird happening other than Cerberus creating a spare Shepard and then doing nothing with him/her.

I believe the tech is there but it's quite rare and costly, not as much as Lazarus perhaps but on the same scale. And it's certainly not the first time we see it. Grunt is technically a clone, as is Miranda and Oriana. Okeer's operation is cloning on a larger scale as is Saren's before him, if I remember correctly. It's not widespread because not everyone can do it, or perhaps not everyone can create stable clones. And how many krogan scientists can you name, apart from Okeer?

And the "why isn't everyone and their mothers using it" argument isn't very convincing. Look at Star Wars. The Kaminoans do make it look easy and yet, clones are not ubiquitous in that galaxy. And I doubt Sidious is the first person in 5000 years to think "hmm, insta-army through clones sounds like a good idea". Just because a piece of technology exists, doesn't mean everyone has one in their basements.

[Redbelle]

CrutchCricket wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

To be honest, I don't quite understand all the "Kai Leng sucks" sentiment on BSN. He's not even close to one of my favorite antagonists, but I didn't especially expect him to be. He's there to supply a few cutscenes and two boss fights, and that's about it. Is he fairly one-dimensional? Sure, but so were Captain Wasea, Dr. Saleon, the Blue Suns guy organizing the attack on Garrus, and a bunch of other villains who served a limited purpose.

None of those were set up as Shepard's nemesis/arch-rival. One-note characters are a dime a dozen in any game so no one's going to bat an eye at any of those. But for Leng, the guy who's supposed to be the Dragon to the supposedly secondary but far more visible villains and "the only one who could stop Shepard", an inverted mirror image of the hero in so many ways, being one-note is not acceptable.

CloneShep is more interesting than Leng, but (s)he's also impossible to take 100% seriously. For starters, if creating a clone like that is possible in the ME Universe, I find it hard to believe that we wouldn't have stumbled across mercs trafficking the technology, or krogan trying to clone themselves to compensate for the genophage, or *something* weird happening other than Cerberus creating a spare Shepard and then doing nothing with him/her.

I believe the tech is there but it's quite rare and costly, not as much as Lazarus perhaps but on the same scale. And it's certainly not the first time we see it. Grunt is technically a clone, as is Miranda and Oriana. Okeer's operation is cloning on a larger scale as is Saren's before him, if I remember correctly. It's not widespread because not everyone can do it, or perhaps not everyone can create stable clones. And how many krogan scientists can you name, apart from Okeer?

And the "why isn't everyone and their mothers using it" argument isn't very convincing. Look at Star Wars. The Kaminoans do make it look easy and yet, clones are not ubiquitous in that galaxy. And I doubt Sidious is the first person in 5000 years to think "hmm, insta-army through clones sounds like a good idea". Just because a piece of technology exists, doesn't mean everyone has one in their basements.

Why isn't everyone doing it?

I can play triplet's on one cymbal and quater notes on the other...... WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE!!!

Because......
1. Not everyone has cymbals
2. Not everyone wants cymbals
3. The co-ordination required is something that takes time and practice to develop.
4. It's only something you really get the most out of in a band where that sort of thing can be made to work outside of a practice environment.

So to bring it back to why isn't everyone making clones..... forgoing the moral and ethical arguments, let's just say that people have reasons for not making clones...... except for an amoral human centric organisation with seemingly limitless resources and time on their hands to kidnap hire the people who have a snowballs chance of making the technology work.

They may be able to grow spare parts of people in the future..... that's a long way from saying they can grow a copy of the same person who walks, talks and acts the same as the original.

[Hazegurl]

I also liked CloneShep better than Leng, both were cheesy but at least CShep was decent cheese. Leng just made me roll my eyes and hate the game for giving him too many auto wins.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Citadel kind of dashed this little theory of mine, but this is what I came up with to explain the cloning in Mass Effect:

Cloning at the current time is still a rather crude process. In theory any species can be cloned, however, due to the imprecise nature of the cloning technology the cloned specimen usually suffers from various organ failures, premature development, etc. Because of this it might take hundreds of attempts at cloning to get one stable clone. Krogan, somewhat, are an exception to this. Because Krogan have redundant organs a cloned Krogan is much more likely to survive the process as a loss of an organ isn't as detrimental. Some clones are still not viable as cloning is still a probability game, but the survival rates among Krogan are much higher and do able.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 17 janvier 2014 - 10:43 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

CrutchCricket wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

To be honest, I don't quite understand all the "Kai Leng sucks" sentiment on BSN. He's not even close to one of my favorite antagonists, but I didn't especially expect him to be. He's there to supply a few cutscenes and two boss fights, and that's about it. Is he fairly one-dimensional? Sure, but so were Captain Wasea, Dr. Saleon, the Blue Suns guy organizing the attack on Garrus, and a bunch of other villains who served a limited purpose.

None of those were set up as Shepard's nemesis/arch-rival. One-note characters are a dime a dozen in any game so no one's going to bat an eye at any of those. But for Leng, the guy who's supposed to be the Dragon to the supposedly secondary but far more visible villains and "the only one who could stop Shepard", an inverted mirror image of the hero in so many ways, being one-note is not acceptable.

See, I didn't perceive him as Shepard's nemesis in the first place. I never saw him as anything much more than the Illusive Man's thug who shows up simply because BW probably thought (correctly) that combat between TIM and Shepard wouldn't be very credible. Maybe it could have been at the very end with his implants and mind control powers, but otherwise he seems like he's long since put his merc days behind him.

[ImaginaryMatter]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

See, I didn't perceive him as Shepard's nemesis in the first place. I never saw him as anything much more than the Illusive Man's thug who shows up simply because BW probably thought (correctly) that combat between TIM and Shepard wouldn't be very credible. Maybe it could have been at the very end with his implants and mind control powers, but otherwise he seems like he's long since put his merc days behind him.

I didn't either and that's the problem. The game builds him up as such, but it never pans out because of his lack of character and how the game allows him to 'beat' Shepard by making everyone around Kai Leng half wits as long as he's on screen.

I certainly like the idea of an anti-Shepard of sorts, but in ME3 it was terribly, terribly implemented.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 18 janvier 2014 - 01:08 .

[Karlone123]

Despite being a bit of a spoof, Cloneshep had more character than Kai Leng. Kai Leng was majorly disappointing as a character as I looked forward to him going from comic/novel character to appearing in the game and going toe to toe with Shepard. But he had so little to offer, even his unique hairstyle had more character than Leng. His cyber-ninja skills do not really make up for his lack of character either. So, yes. Cloneshep was a better antagonist than Kai Leng, which is really strange.

Despite a Kai Leng getting a lot of material, he sadly came up as nothing special. Which was greatly disappointing. I hope another future antagonist doesn't go down the same road.

Modifié par Karlone123, 18 janvier 2014 - 03:02 .

[CrutchCricket]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
See, I didn't perceive him as Shepard's nemesis in the first place. I never saw him as anything much more than the Illusive Man's thug who shows up simply because BW probably thought (correctly) that combat between TIM and Shepard wouldn't be very credible. Maybe it could have been at the very end with his implants and mind control powers, but otherwise he seems like he's long since put his merc days behind him.

Well you wouldn't, from what was presented in-game, certainly. But he was marketed that way. People were told he'd be the Bane to Shepard's Batman. And I think there was even some artwork floating around of him stepping on Shepard's spine or something.

That's what we were told prior to release and his portrayal in Retribution made it somewhat credible. Then ME3 happened and we find out he's nothing more than a twirling fairy, who still acts like he's the anti-Shepard. Obviously this made the dissonance even more jarring, not to mention laughable.

[DeinonSlayer]

CrutchCricket wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
See, I didn't perceive him as Shepard's nemesis in the first place. I never saw him as anything much more than the Illusive Man's thug who shows up simply because BW probably thought (correctly) that combat between TIM and Shepard wouldn't be very credible. Maybe it could have been at the very end with his implants and mind control powers, but otherwise he seems like he's long since put his merc days behind him.

Well you wouldn't, from what was presented in-game, certainly. But he was marketed that way. People were told he'd be the Bane to Shepard's Batman. And I think there was even some artwork floating around of him stepping on Shepard's spine or something.

That's what we were told prior to release and his portrayal in Retribution made it somewhat credible. Then ME3 happened and we find out he's nothing more than a twirling fairy, who still acts like he's the anti-Shepard. Obviously this made the dissonance even more jarring, not to mention laughable.

But... HOW CAN YOU NOT THINK HE'S COOL? I mean, they invoked just about every trope out there! Shades, blades, ninja skillz, poses...




edited: offensive image

Modifié par BioWareMod02, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:46 .

[Steelcan]

This is relevant...somehow

[Shuidizi]

Personally I find it very hard to fight my clone, I've spent 3 games to love Shepard and I always feel bad to see him/her die in the end. They wouldn't make good antagonist IMO.

[RandomGuy96]

Cerberus Assault Trooper #135 > CloneShep > Kai Leng

[Coming0fShadows]

I laughed at both of them every time they talked. I was suppose to laugh at the clone. Kai Leng.... probably not the intent of his character. So CloneShep wins in my book. Besides i always wondered what it was like for the bad guys to fight Shepard, so it was fun fighting myself.

[ImaginaryMatter]

None of them compare to the man on the edge, Conrad Verner.

[SporkFu]

Cloneshep was a fantastic villain for the story he was in. Would he fit into the main game? I have my doubts.

I could see how the story could be re-written so that Maya Brooks doesn't break away from Cerberus and instead becomes TIM's new Miranda. But... unless he had a control chip in his brain, I think cloneshep enjoys being a lone wolf too much to ever work for TIM.

[Hendrik.III]

Cloneshep did feel as more of a threat, plus he had more character and story than Kai Leng. But, he wasn't the one pulling the strings, that was Brooks. He got to Shep on a personal level, stealing his ship and almost ruining everything Shep had worked for. He was far more of an antagonist than Kai Leng, who was really just a tool of the actual antagonist, TIM.

KL felt like a fancy ballerina from the Deus Ex realm because the story totally needed an ineffective ninja, or something? He is one of the sorriest enemies I've come across in my three decade long gaming career. He was completely out of context, unnecessary and unimpressive.
His fighting abilities were laughable with his silly somersaults and sword. The fact that he failed almost everything he was sent to do didn't help either.
KL's only success was on Thessia, but if he hadn't been backed up by an indestructible gunship he would have died on there in the blink of an eye. It would be too much credit to call him an antagonist.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

dreamgazer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Clone Shepard was a better antagonist than the reapers.

Yeah, it's a shame that the Reapers weren't allowed to exercise the entirety of their prowess and simply torch everything within their line of sight. 

""Reapers""

[MegaIllusiveMan]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

None of them compare to the man on the edge, Conrad Verner.

[Redbelle]

For me it comes down to this......

Kai Leng was fleshed out in novels...... and his origins remain within that medium. Cut off from those of us who are unaware of the wider ME universe that can be read in comic/novel format and or DVD releases.

Vega and Kai Leng both suffer from this mistaken belief by their developers and creators that, because their origins are explored in other media, there is no need to revisit it in the core narrative, that being the video game.......

But I'd wager many of us have never read the book with Kai Leng in it, so by taking this approach the developers either...... incentivise gamers to read a book they don't know exists..... or cater to those who did and leave the rest of us hanging.

I was in the boat of those who were left hanging. I've since Wiki'd Kai Leng and I still have no idea why this guy has such a bee in his bonnet about Shepard or Anderson.

The narrative in the game is neer fleshed out properly. He's just another mook with a name and a fancy fight sequence. Who is not up to Saren level when it comes to being villainous. (Note to BW..... Kai Leng is essentially a courier...... Courier's aren't villains unless there late making their deliveries..... And you can usually forgive that because, depsite bad traffic, they still turn up with sweat dripping down their faces and arrows sticking out of their jackets holding up a trembling hand with a black box asking for your autograph..... signature).

(Some people who ordered glassware may disagree).

Back to the point. If there is stroy to tell. Tell it where it matter the most. The video game is where stuff that matters, happens. If you have to tell a stroy in aural format in the game to explain why someone hates someone else...... tell it! Don't just drop a teaser and then have faith that people will read around the wider universe.

To put the problem into wider perspective.......

I have never read, nor do I forsee, reading a ME novel before the release of ME4.

and

I read the comic of how Aria lost Omega...... a year after I played the game as it was avaiable in our local libarary...... so the lore and history got fed to me in the wrong order, whereupon there was much critque about how light Omega DLC was fleshing out this Cerberus 'Grand Admiral' character.

BW, you tell great stories..... But please..... Tell them like you care for the person who sits down and listens. You may be modern day bards spinning yarns with people gathered around the fire place.....

But I can't follow you from tavern to tavern as you tell the story in bits at different venues. The distance you want me to travel equates from going from one city to another, to yet another that I've never heard before! If you want me to appreciate what your saying. Say it in one go. In one place. In one format. Where you can.

Your listener's will love you for it.

Modifié par Redbelle, 21 janvier 2014 - 03:36 .

[conjmk]

Absolutely! Even if the idea of an evil clone is probably one of the cheesiest things in the book, Kai Leng was a joke of a super-villain. At least I thought the clone would actually come out on top for a moment, I never felt that with Kai Leng

[Zaalbar]

I liked the clone in the Citadel DLC for it's cheesiness but I don't think he would have worked out that well for the main story.
As much as I dislike Kai Leng I feel he fits in better with the seriousness of the main game.

I think the thing I enjoyed the most though is not so much the clone himself but rather how everyone reacted to him especially Shepard, It was a lot of fun.

[eyezonlyii]

I personally think the clone would have worked better than Leng in the story. It's all right there. Instead of having sanctuary as another "save my sister" mission from Miranda, it could have been a trap mission where Cerberus was intending to kill Shepard and replace him with the clone, thus ensuring that TIM's plan for the Reapers came to fruition. To that end it would have been Miranda v Brooks banter about TIM and Cerberus (made all the more better if she was your LI).

[RangerSG]

The best thing they could've done to make Thessia believable, IMHO, is to have made Zaeed a party member, and then betray you.

"Shepard, remember that submachine gun you stuck in my go'am face? The Illusive Man offered me enough credits to buy a planet for this information. Guess it's time for payback." (Alternatively, he could be semi-apologetic if you were renegade back then and helped him. But still...credits.

Then leave you stuck beneath waves of mercs+Reapers while he claims the data, something like in Arrival.

Getting smoked that way would've at least been understandable in game. KL is simply pathetic.Being forced to lose is probably the hardest thing to do in an RPG. I get that. But it's bad enough to endure cutscreen competence from the villain. It's even worse when they trash talk about their 'success' when it was the gunship bailing them out.

It's simply a poorly written scene. And following the whole citadel chase scene, where you 'should' have killed him no less than three times, it comes off as horrifically contrived.

CloneShep works for the DLC. And he's probably the strongest adversary you face in a non-gimmicked fight. But Brooks is the real antagonist of the piece. That said, the banters on both sides make me smile.

Modifié par RangerSG, 21 janvier 2014 - 11:01 .