Does anyone else get the feeling that the reapers are providing us with the illusion of control...?
If sanctuary is such a large threat.. why were there no capital ships on the planet..? why wasn the facility completely destroyed from orbit..? instead ground troops are sent in to secure the building, a small amount of ground troops when you think about the threat that sanctuary holds.
My mind is cast back to that terrible terminator film.. where skynet provides humanity with a fake signal to disable its machines.. this of course is a trap to lure out the humans so that they can be targeted and wiped out.
With information from vigil about indoctrinated protheans attempting to take control of the reapers and destroying their plans to complete the crucible.. coupled with the reapers useless attempt at destroying sanctuary i believe control is an illusion....
Why else would the reapers leave sanctuary after you get the information there... why dont reaper reinforcements arrive... where are the reaper ships if it is sanctuary is such a threat.... the illusion of control
The illusion of control and sanctuary
Débuté par
TheWill
, janv. 17 2014 05:51
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#2
Posté 17 janvier 2014 - 06:03
Invisible Man
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the sanctuary mission always hit me as a tad (ok more than just a tad) odd; or just plain wrong, in regards to the reapers actions there.
#3
Posté 17 janvier 2014 - 10:08
shodiswe
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The Catalyst was ok with letting TIM have that knowledge but they didn't want Mr Lawson to keep it since he was an unindoctrinated pawn of TIM that they couldn't control.
They wanted him dead and that was all. He would have died without Shepards intervention and he still did with Shepards intervention. The data was secured and only TIM had it in the end.
There was nothing left for anyone. Maybe if Shepard had brought Mr Lawson in as you could with that Admiral on Omega, but that wasn't an option.
Most people probably thoguht he deserved a quick death anyway.
The Control Lawson had mastered was similar to the methods that the Leviathans used to control Reaperforces.
Limited, but still useful in a fight.
If I had been Shepard I would have searched for his corpse, to make sure he's dead and see if he was carrying any data that could be useful. It's one of those thigns that were never considered. He wasn't disintegrated just thrown to his death. Someone like Lawson likely keept something like that on their person or at a safe location, as an insurance and also because it was extremely valuable.
I doubt he became the wealthiest man in the Galaxy by being a complete idiot.
They wanted him dead and that was all. He would have died without Shepards intervention and he still did with Shepards intervention. The data was secured and only TIM had it in the end.
There was nothing left for anyone. Maybe if Shepard had brought Mr Lawson in as you could with that Admiral on Omega, but that wasn't an option.
Most people probably thoguht he deserved a quick death anyway.
The Control Lawson had mastered was similar to the methods that the Leviathans used to control Reaperforces.
Limited, but still useful in a fight.
If I had been Shepard I would have searched for his corpse, to make sure he's dead and see if he was carrying any data that could be useful. It's one of those thigns that were never considered. He wasn't disintegrated just thrown to his death. Someone like Lawson likely keept something like that on their person or at a safe location, as an insurance and also because it was extremely valuable.
I doubt he became the wealthiest man in the Galaxy by being a complete idiot.
Modifié par shodiswe, 17 janvier 2014 - 10:13 .
#4
Posté 20 janvier 2014 - 03:38
N7Gold
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TheWill wrote...
Does anyone else get the feeling that the reapers are providing us with the illusion of control...?
If sanctuary is such a large threat.. why were there no capital ships on the planet..? why wasn the facility completely destroyed from orbit..? instead ground troops are sent in to secure the building, a small amount of ground troops when you think about the threat that sanctuary holds.
My mind is cast back to that terrible terminator film.. where skynet provides humanity with a fake signal to disable its machines.. this of course is a trap to lure out the humans so that they can be targeted and wiped out.
With information from vigil about indoctrinated protheans attempting to take control of the reapers and destroying their plans to complete the crucible.. coupled with the reapers useless attempt at destroying sanctuary i believe control is an illusion....
Why else would the reapers leave sanctuary after you get the information there... why dont reaper reinforcements arrive... where are the reaper ships if it is sanctuary is such a threat.... the illusion of control
I've always never trusted the idea of controlling Reapers, I just find it strange how they don't want to be destroyed but don't mind being controlled, considering they indoctrinated half of the Prothean Empire to argue that they should use the Crucible to control them, and that they are using Cerberus for the same reasons.
Their attack on sanctuary confused me too, because after that, it was clear to me that Illusive Man is still under their control despite that event. It's almost as if the Reapers are trying to fool Shepard into believing that Cerberus is not willfully following the commands of the Reapers, they are resisting and that they are a threat as well, so that Shepard might trust in Illusive Man's beliefs in controlling Reapers. After all, in the Citadel, with the right dialogue choices, Illusive Man will admit that the reason why he is wasting time with Shepard and Anderson when he is so close to using the Crucible to control the Reapers is because he needs Shepard to believe in it first. TIM subconsiously knows that he can never take control of them, because they have controlled him for 33 years, he needs Shepard to do the honors. The Reapers were probably trying to do the same to the Protheans, use indoctrinated puppets to convince them that there is a "better" way to stop the Reapers rather than destroying them, because every person that is not indoctrinated thinks the same thing when fighting the Reapers: "We destroy them, or they destroy us."
That's what I think, anyway, because the first time I got to that part the first time I played ME3, I originally believed that the Reapers really don't want to be controlled as much as they don't want to be destroyed, but there is something wrong about my old opinion: Why are they still using TIM to convince Shepard that controlling Reapers is the best course of action? All they have to do is quit trying to change Shepard's mind, because it won't be easy to, and destroy the Prothean VI to hide evidence of what the Catalyst is so the Alliance will never complete the Crucible.
Modifié par N7Gold, 20 janvier 2014 - 03:48 .
#5
Posté 20 janvier 2014 - 06:46
shodiswe
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The EC tells us there was nothing wrong with Control. It worked. Checkmate.
#6
Posté 20 janvier 2014 - 08:12
SwobyJ
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The llusion of Control.
There is no War, there is only the Harvest.
Synthesis is Inevitable.
Pick your poison.
There is no War, there is only the Harvest.
Synthesis is Inevitable.
Pick your poison.
Modifié par SwobyJ, 21 janvier 2014 - 04:22 .
#7
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 12:52
N7Gold
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shodiswe wrote...
The EC tells us there was nothing wrong with Control. It worked. Checkmate.
It worked, but for how long? The EC only showed us that Shepard used the Reapers to rebuild the Mass Relays and Citadel. what happens afterwards? Do the Reapers break free from Shepard's control? Why would the Reapers be so willing to betray their original purpose if control over them is permanent?
#8
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 01:25
AlexMBrennan
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Yeah, I had that same feeling ever since Harbinger let Shepard capture the Collector base (he used the IFF as a trap, so obviously he knew that Shepard was coming through the Omega 4 relay but he didn't even alert his one single ship). But nothing ever came of that either.Does anyone else get the feeling that the reapers are providing us with the illusion of control...?
At the end of the day, the Reapers arbitrarily hold back whenever it would make Shepard's missions impossible - e.g. Priority Earth would have been unwinnable if the Reapers had turned off their space elevator, or fired their main guns, etc.
#9
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 04:48
SwobyJ
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Heh, I still don't think Harbinger knew at all about the Reaper IFF. Ok, it's more of a feeling.
EDIT: omg disregard post. I was thinking of something entirely different to what I typed.
EDIT: omg disregard post. I was thinking of something entirely different to what I typed.
Modifié par SwobyJ, 21 janvier 2014 - 10:10 .
#10
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 07:58
AlexMBrennan
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How could he not have known about the IFF? The Reapers had booby-trapped the IFF, and this allowed Harbinger to abduct the crew.
#11
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 08:21
SwobyJ
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Actually, I don't know what I was on when I posted that. It even goes against my other speculations/beliefs/ideas 
Yes, I actually think that Harbinger was waiting for Shepard to reach the Collector Base. Disregard my last post (yikes).
I do disagree that Harbinger 'let' Shepard capture the Collector Base. While it wasn't a massive blow against the Reapers, I do think it was a setback. I think instead, Harbinger's whole focus was to capture Shepard dead or alive, not let him kill the Human Reaper and then destroy or seize the Collector Base. I think it's at that point that Harby's prominent role ends. "We will find another way."
I guess his 'experiments will continue' another way. All he did was get Shepard mad.
I still would agree that Harbinger even held back against Shepard and could have set up a stronger defense. It's not so much that I think there's a hubris element (though there might be) - more that the Reapers might want to strike a balance between being at all vulnerable to opposition, yet allowing an element to surprise them.
And that wouldn't surprise me, given the supposed focus on 'experiments' and later on, 'finding a solution'.
TLDR; Harby wanted to capture Shepard, but to do so in a way that might let Shepard 'win'. The latter outcome is not something that he particularly LIKES, but simply deals with as part of his function. The Reapers appear to have a Plan B, C, D, E, etc. and Shepard punching through each of their control systems doesn't really do anything more than annoy the Reapers (or I guess Harbinger), and is still something they can account for.
Eventually that takes us to the 'Citadel', where Shepard convenes with the Guardian (sorry, the Catalyst). Organics are becoming 'resourceful' enough (which funny enough, was said with enough sarcasm to cut through a Reaper) to show that the Reaping method isn't as efficient as it could be, to 'preserve' species.
Yes, I actually think that Harbinger was waiting for Shepard to reach the Collector Base. Disregard my last post (yikes).
I do disagree that Harbinger 'let' Shepard capture the Collector Base. While it wasn't a massive blow against the Reapers, I do think it was a setback. I think instead, Harbinger's whole focus was to capture Shepard dead or alive, not let him kill the Human Reaper and then destroy or seize the Collector Base. I think it's at that point that Harby's prominent role ends. "We will find another way."
I guess his 'experiments will continue' another way. All he did was get Shepard mad.
I still would agree that Harbinger even held back against Shepard and could have set up a stronger defense. It's not so much that I think there's a hubris element (though there might be) - more that the Reapers might want to strike a balance between being at all vulnerable to opposition, yet allowing an element to surprise them.
And that wouldn't surprise me, given the supposed focus on 'experiments' and later on, 'finding a solution'.
TLDR; Harby wanted to capture Shepard, but to do so in a way that might let Shepard 'win'. The latter outcome is not something that he particularly LIKES, but simply deals with as part of his function. The Reapers appear to have a Plan B, C, D, E, etc. and Shepard punching through each of their control systems doesn't really do anything more than annoy the Reapers (or I guess Harbinger), and is still something they can account for.
Eventually that takes us to the 'Citadel', where Shepard convenes with the Guardian (sorry, the Catalyst). Organics are becoming 'resourceful' enough (which funny enough, was said with enough sarcasm to cut through a Reaper) to show that the Reaping method isn't as efficient as it could be, to 'preserve' species.
Modifié par SwobyJ, 21 janvier 2014 - 08:27 .
#12
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 08:54
Sifr
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N7Gold wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
The EC tells us there was nothing wrong with Control. It worked. Checkmate.
It worked, but for how long? The EC only showed us that Shepard used the Reapers to rebuild the Mass Relays and Citadel. what happens afterwards? Do the Reapers break free from Shepard's control? Why would the Reapers be so willing to betray their original purpose if control over them is permanent?
Control becomes even more tenuous since we know that Leviathan are capable of taking over Reapers. With the Leviathan considering themselves Gods and desiring to retake their rightful place as the "apex species", what happens when they try to reassert their own control?
I doubt that really is Shepard in the Control Ending, just the Catalyst with a new face. Who really wins in that ending? The Reapers continue to exist as the dominant species in the galaxy after all.
Maybe this was why Harbinger so obsessed with Shepard in the second game? Why the Illusive Man spent so much money to bring them back to life. Maybe getting Shepard to agree to this (or Synthesis) was their endgame all along?
Doesn't getting their greatest enemy to become their leader actually make a lot of sense? It's like in Angel when they took over the LA branch of Wolfram and Hart. On the one hand, they took down the great evil, but they did so by becoming part of that very system. It wasn't gone, it was just different now.
It's less about Control and more about Pacification.
#13
Posté 21 janvier 2014 - 10:18
SwobyJ
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"On the one hand, they took down the great evil, but they did so by becoming part of that very system. It wasn't gone, it was just different now."
Well yes, exactly.
And you can't deny that they still did good in that system. In fact, if this example was in a different-non-buffyverse, they might even utterly reform it.
But it's still *a* 'control' system. By avoiding a larger conflict now (the war with the Reapers), you flirt with creating an even larger-larger conflict later on (Reapers are still around, so...). Depends on how its done.
"The cycle will end"
lol
But it sure ain't broken.
However, I personally don't think this was anything like their (Reapers') endgame. I think they wanted Shepard (in ME2) in their Human Reaper, and to do that before the invasion just due to prioritization.
After Shepard scuttled that plan, I imagine them figuratively shrugging their shoulders and go "He wants it what way, fine, let the Harvest begin."
I don't think they necessarily need or even very much want Shepard alive and making that final choice. I think it's more about leaving an opening for it to happen, due to interest in how Shepard is beating the odds. Shepard is dead? Fine, use his body. Shepard is alive? Fine, use his body and brain. Shepard is alive and fighting to the point of uniting the galaxy against the Reapers? Alright, use his body, brain, and capacity for choice.
It makes enough sense when you try to regard the galaxy as a petri dish, with controls and variables involved.
Well yes, exactly.
And you can't deny that they still did good in that system. In fact, if this example was in a different-non-buffyverse, they might even utterly reform it.
But it's still *a* 'control' system. By avoiding a larger conflict now (the war with the Reapers), you flirt with creating an even larger-larger conflict later on (Reapers are still around, so...). Depends on how its done.
"The cycle will end"
lol
But it sure ain't broken.
However, I personally don't think this was anything like their (Reapers') endgame. I think they wanted Shepard (in ME2) in their Human Reaper, and to do that before the invasion just due to prioritization.
After Shepard scuttled that plan, I imagine them figuratively shrugging their shoulders and go "He wants it what way, fine, let the Harvest begin."
I don't think they necessarily need or even very much want Shepard alive and making that final choice. I think it's more about leaving an opening for it to happen, due to interest in how Shepard is beating the odds. Shepard is dead? Fine, use his body. Shepard is alive? Fine, use his body and brain. Shepard is alive and fighting to the point of uniting the galaxy against the Reapers? Alright, use his body, brain, and capacity for choice.
It makes enough sense when you try to regard the galaxy as a petri dish, with controls and variables involved.
Modifié par SwobyJ, 21 janvier 2014 - 10:19 .
