264 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

My take on Morrigan is envisioning her as some sort of mastermind in DA:O is a mistake when she's got the emotional maturity of a bratty teenager.

[CybAnt1]

Fascinating. That then would seem to be another interesting dev/Wiki contradiction.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qun

The Qunari do not believe in deities and find the concept of invisible, omnipotent beings laughable. The Qunari place religious focus on the divine moral structure of the world, not divine beings. The Qunari tolerate deism in the converted populations in Rivain and Seheron, however, as they view their inhabitants as just beginning the path to enlightened self-knowledge, and that they will discard that sort of superstition eventually.

[snip][end]

As for Morrigan, she's lived among the Chasinds, and the Chasinds are not Andrastians, but believe in gods.

Their belief system seems to correspond more or less to what we would call in our world shamanism or animism.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 21 janvier 2014 - 05:57 .

[Willowhugger]

MasterScribe wrote...David Gaider on his twitter - "Neither Morrigan nor the Qun are atheist."

Given not all gods in religion sare capital G figures and spirits qualify for all of the definitions in more polytheistic ones, atheism might be impossible in Dragon Age as we traditionally define it.

Morrigan, at least, thinks religion is IRRELEVANT to her life. She also doesn't believe in the Maker, which is different from being an atheist.

[CybAnt1]

If I recall correctly, she never says anything negative about the Chasind beliefs. Her comments on religion are always directed at how much she hates Andrastianism/The Chantry and templars. That is the missionary "religion" she's been dealing with her entire life. When she says she hates "religion" that's what she's talking about.

As for the Qunari, well, no deities are no deities. I don't think a religion has to have deities, though, otherwise you run into problems with Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism. (Qun/Qunarism IMHO seems to be modelled a bit on all three, all though other aspects of their culture remind me of the Ottomans. Some seem like Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.)

Modifié par CybAnt1, 21 janvier 2014 - 06:31 .

[Willowhugger]

Morrigan is also very friendly to Sten.

[The Elder King]

Willowhugger wrote...

Morrigan is also very friendly to Sten.

.....What:huh:?

[Willowhugger]

hhh89 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

Morrigan is also very friendly to Sten.

.....What:huh:?

Morrigan is the one who asks you to free Sten from his cage. She and Sten also had some fun convesations in my group.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 21 janvier 2014 - 07:03 .

[Ieldra]

ziloe wrote...

Morrigan is her own person, that's why most people hate her charaHcter, because unlike the others, throughout the quest, she had her own motivations. And personally, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they need more characters like Morrigan.

Indeed. As opposed to many, I *really* liked that aspect of hers. I recall when she walked away after DAO ended, I found that completely appropriate. Paradoxically, if she had stayed for the Warden, she wouldn't have been the person this Warden loved. Also the ending left hope for the future, even before Witch Hunt. I absolutely loved it.

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...David Gaider on his twitter - "Neither Morrigan nor the Qun are atheist."

Given not all gods in religion sare capital G figures and spirits qualify for all of the definitions in more polytheistic ones, atheism might be impossible in Dragon Age as we traditionally define it.

Morrigan, at least, thinks religion is IRRELEVANT to her life. She also doesn't believe in the Maker, which is different from being an atheist.

Defining "atheist" in a fantasy story can be complicated, since there is no hard line between ultra-powerful non-human wizards and gods. Basically, a god is a god if it has immense and incomprehensible power and if people regard it as worthy of reverence as a deity. Take the second away, and any god might as well be an ultra-powerful mage.

So what does "atheism" in this context entail? It would be implausible to not believe in the Old Gods' existence, but it's very plausible to find the appellation "god" inappropriate for them, without making them any different from what they are.

In an old discussion about this, I have maintained that the functionality of a god as a focus of the social phenomenon "religion" does not depend on the god being real, but rather depends on the god not being real. In any other case, those "gods" will inevitable lose their status as deities and become superpowers in the world instead. We are seeing the Old Gods going that way...  which means that Morrigan, who doesn't believe in imaginary gods, actually *is* atheist, or will soon be, by that definition.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 janvier 2014 - 08:56 .

[Sifr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Defining "atheist" in a fantasy story can be complicated, since there is no hard line between ultra-powerful non-human wizards and gods. Basically, a god is a god if it has immense and incomprehensible power and if people regard it as worthy of reverence as a deity. Take the second away, and any god might as well be an ultra-powerful mage.

So what does "atheism" in this context entail? It would be implausible to not believe in the Old Gods' existence, but it's very plausible to find the appellation "god" inappropriate for them, without making them any different from what they are.

In an old discussion about this, I have maintained that the functionality of a god as a focus of the social phenomenon "religion" does not depend on the god being real, but rather depends on the god not being real. In any other case, those "gods" will inevitable lose their status as deities and become superpowers in the world instead. We are seeing the Old Gods going that way...  which means that Morrigan, who doesn't believe in imaginary gods, actually *is* atheist, or will soon be, by that definition.

I always thought that Morrigan found the concept of the Maker to be laughable, not the idea of gods itself.

Flemeth after all, is feared and respected by the Chasind Wilders and the Dalish as an ageless, immortal thing of nightmares. She's essentially an evil God or Spirit, at least in their minds. Is she actually either of those things? Not going to dismiss the former, but tentatively leaning more towards the latter.

It makes sense that growing up in the same house as one of the more powerful entities in Thedas, one who provided her with a rather abusive upbringing, would make any invisible, all-loving and highly benevolent creator seem ludicrous in comparison.

Morrigan seems to be more of a Naytheist than anything else. Unless it benefits her in some way, she'd care little for any Gods that exist and even then would probably be disdainful of their religions.

(Which would naturally make it rather hilarious if we ever learned that a male Warden and she were revered as the parents of the OGB in a future religion dedicated to their child).

[Exaltation]

Let's settle on Morrigan the Sexy,any objections?

[n7stormrunner]

Exaltation wrote...

Let's settle on Morrigan the Sexy,any objections?

I think this makes the most sense.

I'm still trying to figure out when morrigan supposelly betrayed the warden, maybe, it's in a mod somwhere.

[Ieldra]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Defining "atheist" in a fantasy story can be complicated, since there is no hard line between ultra-powerful non-human wizards and gods. Basically, a god is a god if it has immense and incomprehensible power and if people regard it as worthy of reverence as a deity. Take the second away, and any god might as well be an ultra-powerful mage.

So what does "atheism" in this context entail? It would be implausible to not believe in the Old Gods' existence, but it's very plausible to find the appellation "god" inappropriate for them, without making them any different from what they are.

In an old discussion about this, I have maintained that the functionality of a god as a focus of the social phenomenon "religion" does not depend on the god being real, but rather depends on the god not being real. In any other case, those "gods" will inevitable lose their status as deities and become superpowers in the world instead. We are seeing the Old Gods going that way...  which means that Morrigan, who doesn't believe in imaginary gods, actually *is* atheist, or will soon be, by that definition.

I always thought that Morrigan found the concept of the Maker to be laughable, not the idea of gods itself.

Flemeth after all, is feared and respected by the Chasind Wilders and the Dalish as an ageless, immortal thing of nightmares. She's essentially an evil God or Spirit, at least in their minds. Is she actually either of those things? Not going to dismiss the former, but tentatively leaning more towards the latter.

It makes sense that growing up in the same house as one of the more powerful entities in Thedas, one who provided her with a rather abusive upbringing, would make any invisible, all-loving and highly benevolent creator seem ludicrous in comparison.

It is exactly because she's Flemeth's daughter why I think she wouldn't be oblivious to the underlying question of what makes a god a god. Is Flemeth a deity, and if so, what makes her that?

With regard to the Maker, she explicitly says she doesn't believe in him in DAO:

• Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
• Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

and later, against David Gaider's claim she's not an atheist:

• Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?
• Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I guess this *can* be interpreted as disbelief in any deity's "higher significance" rather than disbelief in their existence, but then - the fact that the Maker appears to be imaginary to anyone who isn't already predisposed to believe does, in fact, appear to be a factor in her disbelief, so she would only acknowledge real gods like the Old Gods - or maybe Flemeth:

• Leliana: Let me ask you this, then, Morrigan. What if there really was a Maker?
• Morrigan: Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.
• Leliana: He left us because we were determined to make our own way, even if we hurt outselves, and He could not bear to watch.
• Morrigan: But how do you know? You cannot ask Him this. Perhaps He has gone to a new creation elsewhere, and abandoned this as a dismal failure, best forgotten.
• Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.
• Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word.
• Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
• Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

I agree with you that she's probably dismissive of the concept of worship, which means that she'd regard real gods like magical superpowers, with fear or respect or wariness - and that sort of invalidates the whole concept, doesn't it? For all intents and purposes, she is really "atheos" (Old Greek: rejecting the gods, godless)

(Which would naturally make it rather hilarious if we ever learned that a male Warden and she were revered as the parents of the OGB in a future religion dedicated to their child)

LOL. I can see that happening.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:58 .

[Willowhugger]

I actually think you be looking for a forest instead of a tree, too. Morrigan's comments to Leliana are motivated not by a serious look into her belief structure but the fact the former knows the latter is trying to minister to her a religion, a religion which has brutally oppressed mages across Thedas and would hunt her down like an animal.

As for the bit about religion not capable of being built around a literal being less it become a superpower, Eastern religions tend to disprove that as a lot of the assumptions about religion in the West just don't apply.

[Medhia Nox]

I think she's being more Anti-Leliana than she is Anti-belief (she may also be wholeheartedly against the Chantry itself).

She's also young, arrogant, terribly sheltered and predisposed to thinking she knows everything just because she's Flemeth's pupil.

Her attitude in Awakening is more:  Wow, I'm starting to lose that college level ignorance and I'm starting to realize I may not have it all figured out from the safety of my mentors and textbooks.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:26 .

[blod007]

From the Martyr or betrayer point of view, does anyone think that perhaps The Dark Ritual was nothing to do with the sexual act iteslf but was actually Morrigan asking the question "Would you consider letting me getting pregnant, no matter who the father is?" then if the answer was no, then she leaves empty-bellied so to speak, (unless there was tent time, and how was the PC to know that would produce offspring?) if the answer was yes then the next question would be "Would you expose that child to the taint of the Archdemon or let me have it as it is?" Just a thought....

[dragonflight288]

All these discussions about Morrigan, the Chantry, and Leliana are also what make it absolutely hilarious when Morrigan and Leliana come to rescue the Warden from Fort Drakon, and Morrigan is pretending to be a Chantry sister, and is obviously not happy about it.

[Lord Raijin]

hhh89 wrote...

@Lord Raijin: she never stated such, and in banter with Leliana she stated she doesn't believe in deities.
As for the rest of your post, there is nothing that would lead us to believe that Flemeth's harsh teachings were necessary to avoid the templars: Malcolm Hawke educated Bethany and Hawke in a different way and they turned out fine. Flemeth certainly thaught her well how to hide herself from the templars, but that has nothing to do in the way she educated her, and in how she mold her personality.
Furthermore, Flemeth would've likely educated Morrigan in a similar way regardless of the Chantry's existence.

The problem with your comparisons is that Bethany had other people willing stand up to be her sheild and protect her from the Templar's whereas Morrigan was alone, and with nobody to protect her other than her Mother, and that is only because Morrigan is a great asset to Flemeth.

Malcolm Hawke was a Junor Enchanter prior to his escape and had far too little time to get experience in advanced art of magic let a loan teaching others to wield their magic. The quality of training that he taught his children was far less than what Flemeth provided to Morrigan. Mage Hawke wand up becoming a blood mage  (according to Bioware canon) for his source of power and Morrigan use shapeshifting abilty to get around unnoticed. Malcolm certainly failed at teaching Bethany to conceal her magic talents since it is she that gets arrested by the Templars and taken to the Circle at the end of the deep roads expedition. This is what Melcolm tried to prevent from ever happening in the first place.

Rassler wrote...

Destruction of chantry would please Morrigan but she doesn't care enough to do it.

Morrigans motto is "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you, but if you mess with me I will return that same favor". Morrigan acknowledges that Templar's tried to arrest her and her mother, but was unsuccessful.

[AresKeith]

@LordRaijin you have a source for that saying Mage Hawke becomes a blood mage in "Bioware canon"

[The Elder King]

@Lord Raijin: I'd say that Morrigan was safer than Bethany, because Flemeth was far more powerful than Malcolm. While Bethany was probably conscious of the fact that being a mage makes life very difficult in Andrastian society since she was little, Morrigan thought that templars coming from her was just a game when she was little.
About the quality of training, Morrigan is surely more knowledgable in ancient magic than Bethany, but there is nothing in-lore that suggest that she's more powerful than Bethany. Morrigan stated that her powers aren't even near her mother. Regardless, it was stated numerous times that Malcolm trained well his children.
About Bethany being captured, she was in Kirkwall, where templars have a great power and influence. On the same (mostly) age, Morrigan went at best at Lothering, where Bethany proved to remain unnoticed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. As opposed to many, I *really* liked that aspect of hers. I recall when she walked away after DAO ended, I found that completely appropriate. Paradoxically, if she had stayed for the Warden, she wouldn't have been the person this Warden loved. Also the ending left hope for the future, even before Witch Hunt. I absolutely loved it.

She claims to love you, and yet leave you and lets you die if you don't do the (mysterious dark ritual) sexy time with her.
From where I come from, we don't call that love.

[German Soldier]

First off, I need to clarify something:
1)being grey has nothing to do with 'being black for a greater white'. Zevran and Isabela don't have a bigger goal that justify their actions. And they have very few limits in their work (and Isabela walked the line once). And we have no clue what is Morrigan's real goal. By your definition of grayness, you should wait to know her goal before judging her.
2)keeping the Anvil isn't evil. It's at best morally questionable, but it has an enormous value for the dwarves. It might keeps them for being annihilated.
3)Killing the elves in DAO isn't evil, or at least not more than killing the werewolves, since the latter are (for what we know) unlucky innocents.
4)défile the Ashes isn't evil. It might be it'd clear what they really are. And at this point, I don't think it is. And to be clear, this is coming from a person who don't generally chose option 3 and 4.
As for Morrigan, yes, she support questionable things, which I heavily dislike. Anders supported selling Fenris. I don't care what reasons you might find, it doesn't change the fact that he supported slavery when he claims to be against it. At least Morrigan says that she doesn't care one bit of other people. 
As for Anders being an abomination, it count only in certain cases like Dissent, since andar woudn't have threatened Ella (though it shown the stupidity of spirit merging without any info). It doesn't count in Fenris' case or in endlessy tormenting Merrill, another trait that made him an hypocrite.

First sorry for the necro Bsn,i didn't resist i didn't please folk don't kill me..

1)Yes i would say now that we saw DAI that she didn't had any greater purpose or good plan for the world for  keeping the old god soul alive,it was just her powermonger desire that let her put in danger her own son against FLemeth especially by drinking from that stupid well of sorrow.

So i would say that her motivation behind the ritual where jus power for herself,nothing from whom the world would have benefited,same for the well of sorrow.

2)i would say that keeping the anvil is stupid,you're trusting an insane woman with it,a woman who betrayed her whole army by using them as bait for the Caridin traps and let her friend become a broodmothers,anyone who should want to trust branka is insane,hell even Oghren  have some doubt

3)Commit genocide is evil,always,the werewolves bring a lethal curse that will turn you if you will being infected into one of them,so i would say tha keep them to sleep near to your camp is insane,they did show to be little capable to control their instincts.

Best option is to remove the curse,the curse need to be stopped Zathrian die.

Keep the werewolves is what Morrigan suggest and it's the stupid evil choice.

4)indeed defile the ashes is stupid evil not evil.

Trust a mad man who live in a cave in the hope that he will maintain his word after that you slaughtered his clan,and hope tha he will give to you wyvern blood instead of poison is madness.

If i was in Kolgrim i would have give to the warden poison,just to demonstrate at how stupid some evil choices are,you do the dirty work and then you die,bye bye warden.

the warden can betray kolgrim,why he cannot do the same? answer,because the hero as to be a snowflake.

ALso i found the magic of the ahes to be more valuable than the blood of some animal

 

 

DAO was a binary game in which most choices until the dark ritual or the dwarves quests were clearly based on a right/wrong binary and Morrigan always suggested and approved of the stupid choice ,jus to show at how stupid she was regarding the outside world,she even admit to know nothing of the world while her mother suggest to not listen to her advices before to sent her with you,and damn she was right.

I do no understand for why Flemeth raised such a mess,she seem to care for the Dalish and the world,then why rise Morrigan to be so stupid in DAO?

People say that she was practical and i say at which point she was practical?

an Arcane advisor she can be ok,an advisor of choices for leading a mission?

absolutely not.

[Illegitimus]

She claims to love you, and yet leave you and lets you die if you don't do the (mysterious dark ritual) sexy time with her.
From where I come from, we don't call that love.

 

She doesn't "let" you die.  You don't need her to survive unless you strike the final blow.  And if you do, ain't nothing gonna save you without the ritual.  

[Cobra's_back]

David Gaider on his twitter - "Neither Morrigan nor the Qun are atheist."

Nice find so she worships the old gods??? Her sister tried to get Alistair to wake up ancient dragons with his blood. Morrigan in DAO was pretty scary. She gave you approval if you drained the elve's life force in the Denerim Alienage.