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[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: You don't see what's so awful about using childbirth for your own selfish aims?

Clearly you do not have children.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Argh. I don't know this webcomic, but this is typical of Bioware's writing. As soon as people become "softer", they stop doing things that feel uncomfortable all over the board, with no attempt to distinguish between things that may actually harm anyone and things that just feel uncomfortable. I don't see what's so bad about that ritual. I find it interesting and my Warden agreed to it not just because it saves his life, but because he agreed with Morrigan's given reasons.

I just hope Morrigan escapes Miranda's fate. If she doesn't, I might just give up on Bioware's stories altogether. Being good doesn't mean following an unreflected feel-good morality. Gods, how I hate that.

There is no character assassination if Morrigan feels somewhat apprehensive about the ritual; even if it is something she really wants, people can want things and still have doubts.
Morrigan might feel there are dangers to what she is about to do. Unlike the OGB, this is really nothing outwardly; we are talking about preserving the Thedosian equivalent of Cthulhu if Cthulhu had spawned an empire that once enslaved the world and then tried to destroy it five times.
It makes more sense for there to be dangers than the opposite.
And if you really don't like that interpretation, there are other ways of looking at it. Morrigan could feel regret over betraying a lover or even just a friend; either by abandoning them or asking them for permission to sleep with their loved one AKA Alistair and carry his child.

So far, there is nothing that indicates Morrigan's character is being altered in any way.

I've read the comic, and she says "something terrible", and it appears as if she talks about the ritual. Apprehensive, aware of possible dangers, yes, I understand that, but that's not how it comes across in the comic. Also, it appears as if she was doing it primarily to save the Warden, which is definitely not how it comes across in DAO. There, the ritual comes across as if the OGB would serve another, so far unknown purpose, and that continues in Witch Hunt.

I don't know how Morrigan will change over time, but this comic is supposed to have taken place before the ritual. I find her very odd there.

@Medhia Nox:
If the child is healthy and the ritual doesn't result in any damage, no, I don't see a problem at all. It may even be given extraordinary powers through the ritual. What Morrigan does with the child after its born, that may or may not be bad, we'll see that in DAI I guess, but bringing it into existence doesn't present a problem.
(This is very similar to bringing Miranda into existence in ME. I reject any insinuation that things like this are intrinsically bad.)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 janvier 2014 - 02:46 .

[MisterJB]

In that comic, Alistair is in a relationship with a female Warden therefore, "something terrible" could simply be a reference to sleeping with her best friend's man.
And Morrigan is manipulative, it's likely she would attempt to make the ritual sound more appealing; it would have been hard to convince the player had she said "I need you to do something terrible." if that is what she was referring to.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 janvier 2014 - 02:51 .

[MisterJB]

What if being possessed by the Archdemon effectively killed the original soul of the child? I know Morrigan said she barely considered it as such after only one night but maybe she was more apprehensive about it than she let on.
Plus, it's not simply a matter of bringing something like the OGB into existence but rather giving birth to serve your own best interests rather than those of the child. Although, one might argue that is not so different from what normal couples do, anyway.

[Androme]

 People have this tendency to believe that working for personal power (which is a means, not an end, which again most people don't understand) would be something wrong.

Edit:
Flemeth sends Morrigan to help the Warden stop the Blight in order to do the Ritual, that is the primary reason why Flemeth ''wants to see the Blight end''. But along the way, Morrigan discovers her mothers plans for her, and turns her mothers idea (Old God Baby) against her, somehow, we've yet to see how.

Modifié par Androme, 18 janvier 2014 - 03:01 .

[Ash Wind]

AutumnWitch wrote...

*Apologies to the Morrigan Lovers*


Over the last few days I have played all the DA games with all the DLC's and the more I think on Morrigan the more I REALLY don't like her.

On the surface she seems like a nice character BUT everything she does is either for her own needs or wants... period.

In Witch Hunt she claims that Flemeth is the "real" enemy but let's look at Morigians behaviour.

She is never honest with anyone even at the end of DAO she is still lying and manipulating people including people she claims to care for.

Then in Witch Hunt she is acting "cagey" at best or "guilty"  at worst. She is clearly hiding something big.

Blasphemer!!

LOL… kidding, but…

I think much of the appeal of Morrigan is her mystery, we still don’t know what she is, she could be the Bad Girl with a Heart of Gold, or the Bad Girl with a Heart of Cold Stone… we just don’t know at this point.
 
On her being Cagey in Witch Hunt… yes she is, but is that a product of her devious character? Or a product of the writing?? The whole speech at the end of Witch Hunt seemed to be less about character and more about being a teaser. I mean come on, this is the same writing team that stated if you kill Leliana in DAO, there is a way for her to survive, but it’s such a super-awesome secret the method cannot be fully revealed until DA XIV - or turned a competent, rationale Orsino into a Blood Mage Abomination, just because they wanted another Boss Battle.

On her not trusting the Warden or asking him/her for help…  she was raised by Flemeth, and that influence cannot be completely undone. I like to think her interaction with the Warden skewed her development from becoming Flemeth Part Two, but she’s still a broken character whose early life was dominated by a freak like Flemeth. I think she is doing what she feels she must, it may not be about being ‘Good’ but rather being in conflict with Flemeth and her plans, whether its deemed good or bad. As they say, children are either a reflection of their parents, or a reaction to them.
  

Modifié par Ash Wind, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:25 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: You are free to be Dr. Frankenstein all you wish - I have no qualms really as we do not share the same invented universe and the real one has some thankful limitations.  Also, you sure do put a lot of ifs into your excuses as to why you find it totally fine.

I, however, find using childbirth for experiments repugnant.

To each his own.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:33 .

[KC_Prototype]

Morrigan's character alone has me excited for DA:I. She isnt evil, she just has a plan to deal withthe dark times ahead. Also, how isn't Flemeth a wildcard, even more so than Morrigan? Flemeth is a master manipulater and she may tell you the truth but it's only half of the truth and she only tells you what she thinks you need to know. Flemeth is more of a worry than Morrigan, why won't she just die? Why did she want to live for so long?

[FreshRevenge]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I'm glad she's back, even as an NPC, so I can hear more of Claudia Black's heart-melting voice.

The writers have said she'll be playing more of a "human role" in the story. I'm still not exactly sure what that means - but I'm eager to find out.

Again, I wonder what about her character will be "canonical". Looks like she is the court mage of Empress Celene. 

But -- motherhood ... did she give birth to the OGB? Will we meet ... it? Will they simply put the paternity matter aside? 
And was the "standard" Witch Hunt ending canonical ... which means she now knows where the eluvians go and has returned from it?

Like Morrigan wasn't human enough. I think the word that Bioware or David Gaider meant to imply was humanitarian. She becomes a mother and develops a love for her child, which in most cases starts at conception. That may have cause her to look at the world differently and see it as a world to be saved?

My question is who is this god that she keeps talking about?

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieldra2: You are free to be Dr. Frankenstein all you wish - I have no qualms really as we do not share the same invented universe and the real one has some thankful limitations.  Also, you sure do put a lot of ifs into your excuses as to why you find it totally fine.

I, however, find using childbirth for experiments repugnant.

To each his own.

Medhia, you and I agree in a lot of things, but I honestly fail to see how conceiving a child is so terrible only because it'll save your life. Most people have children for selfish reasons, no matter how you look at it.

[CybAnt1]

Many people think she lied to the Warden about the need to conceive the OGB ... but the fact that what she warned you about comes true, if you don't do the Dark Ritual, suggests she wasn't lying.

So yes, at least one motive for the OGB is to save the Warden who she now cares about - or, theoretically, even Alistair or Loghain, who she doesn't (but doesn't hate them enough to want to have them die unnecessarily.)

Is it part of some larger 'matter' that concerns Thedas ... will the child grow up to be Rosemary's Baby/Devil's Due/Damien, or the Savior of Thedas ... we just don't know, but I would say the other matter in the decision seems to be that yes, she thinks the child will affect the world, so it's not just purely 'self' interest.

[Medhia Nox]

@Gwydden: You know the type of people in the real world who do what Morrigan did? Religious folks who want to populate the world with people that promote their agenda. Do you agree with massive religious families who's goal is to outbreed the competition? I do not.

Morrigan's reason isn't to save your life - that's the carrot - her real reason is to insert the essence of a god into a baby child for her own purposes. That isn't "To have a child." That is "To have a powerful object I can use."

I also don't agree with having children for any other reason than to "Raise a child well."

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:04 .

[CybAnt1]

Just one question, Medhia, and it assumes something we don't know (but at the moment that's typical).

Supposing that OGB will be necessary for something momentous in the future that saves Thedas from destruction or a bad fate ... maybe even in DAI, though so far that's not even been suggested, maybe a future game ... when the child is older than 8 ...

Is the act still horribly selfish?

EDIT: I also think Morrigan has figured out something about the Eluvians that also ties into this, although we also have no idea there either. That was left as ambiguous as possible at the end of Witch Hunt too. Our Wardens might now know this secret too, but if they know it, it was "offscreen" after the ending of the scenario and what the player can see.

 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:10 .

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Gwydden: You know the type of people in the real world who do what Morrigan did? Religious folks who want to populate the world with people that promote their agenda. Do you agree with massive religious families who's goal is to outbreed the competition? I do not.

Morrigan's reason isn't to save your life - that's the carrot - her real reason is to insert the essence of a god into a baby child for her own purposes. That isn't "To have a child." That is "To have a powerful object I can use."

I also don't agree with having children for any other reason than to "Raise a child well."

I'm not talking about Morrigan's motivation, but the Warden's, and more often than not, that is to save his/her life.

Let me put it this way: I don't know why anyone would want a child in the first place, but that's just me. But people want one even before the child exists, so when they're having in they're fullfilling their (completely) selfish desire to have descendance, for one reason or the other.

I don't consider the reason you mention altruistic. You're just following a whim, not doing something good for someone else, since the child is not even a person yet.

[superdeathdealer14]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Gwydden: You know the type of people in the real world who do what Morrigan did? Religious folks who want to populate the world with people that promote their agenda. Do you agree with massive religious families who's goal is to outbreed the competition? I do not.

Morrigan's reason isn't to save your life - that's the carrot - her real reason is to insert the essence of a god into a baby child for her own purposes. That isn't "To have a child." That is "To have a powerful object I can use."

I also don't agree with having children for any other reason than to "Raise a child well."

So you're adding religious people to this, well done, now you have your opinion and we have ours.

[Medhia Nox]

@CybAnt1: Yes, precisely because we don't know.

I'm not talking about what the child may become. I'm talking about the choices behind the child's birth.

Having the baby to save your life? Selfish.

Having the baby to commit some experiment? Selfish (and in my opinion absolutely disgusting).

Again - I want to be clear - this is a game. I'm curious what does happen for those who made this choice. But if I'm going to share my real world opinions about it - these are what they are, and my real world opinions tend to dictate my character's choices (don't usually get a kick out of playing something that doesn't share my moral compass).

@Gwydden:  It is precisely that you don't have children - why I feel you might be ill equipped to state that it's totally cool to do this to a child.

Some people on here claim (not you) that "knowledge" is the ultimate thing to search for - yet make statements about somethign they've never experienced and have no knowledge of.  I find this inconsistent.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:12 .

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@CybAnt1: Yes, precisely because we don't know.

I'm not talking about what the child may become. I'm talking about the choices behind the child's birth.

Having the baby to save your life? Selfish.

Having the baby to commit some experiment? Selfish (and in my opinion absolutely disgusting).

Again - I want to be clear - this is a game. I'm curious what does happen for those who made this choice. But if I'm going to share my real world opinions about it - these are what they are, and my real world opinions tend to dictate my character's choices (don't usually get a kick out of playing something that doesn't share my moral compass).

Selfishness is not, in and of itself, a negative quality.

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Gwydden:  It is precisely that you don't have children - why I feel you might be ill equipped to state that it's totally cool to do this to a child.

Some people on here claim (not you) that "knowledge" is the ultimate thing to search for - yet make statements about somethign they've never experienced and have no knowledge of.  I find this inconsistent.

You're right, I don't believe I'm the best one to determine morality in these matters. But I am certain there are parents who would agree with me, in that there's nothing inherently wrong in conceiving a child just because it also happens to save your life.

[Medhia Nox]

@Gwydden: I believe it is.

And yet, I still draw a distinction between having a baby to save your life (which I also find cowardly) - and doing it for an experiment. I find the later FAR worse than the former - but I find neither of them worthwhile.

Also - I'm trying to make it clear that I'm not saying "Its wrong." as an absolute - even if I do believe it to be so. 

I am stating an opinion - one which, thankfully, nobody else ever has to conform to. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:16 .

[CybAnt1]

Look, the whole game-world is full of bad parents ...

Don't get me going on Oghren, he's the ultimate deadbeat daddy. He's not ready for domestic responsibilities, not when there's things to axe-smash and taverns to frequent. I think his child is doomed to a bad future. But given that they seem to have finally pretty much stopped using him after Awakening, we may not have to see the train wreck.

[Medhia Nox]

@CybAnt1: The world is full of bad people - so let's be bad people?

I prefer to try to avoid being selfish - and when I am, to not make excuses for it.

If I could address Oghren's issues, I would do so there as well. Still - a deadbeat, to me, is preferable to what Morrigan's potentially doing to this experiment of hers.

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@CybAnt1: The world is full of bad people - so let's be bad people?

I prefer to try to avoid being selfish - and when I am, to not make excuses for it.

If I could address Oghren's issues, I would do so there as well. Still - a deadbeat, to me, is preferable to what Morrigan's potentially doing to this experiment of hers.

Out of curiosity, do you find Rica's attitude in the Dwarf Commoner origin morally reprehensible? She is having a child just to move up in the world and secure a better life for her family. I am not comparing her to Morrigan, but to the Warden.

Morrigan herself is a... tricky matter. I cannot help but wonder whether she will be as bad of a parent as her own mother. After all, they say abuse creates abusers.

Modifié par Gwydden, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:26 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

What if being possessed by the Archdemon effectively killed the original soul of the child? I know Morrigan said she barely considered it as such after only one night but maybe she was more apprehensive about it than she let on.
Plus, it's not simply a matter of bringing something like the OGB into existence but rather giving birth to serve your own best interests rather than those of the child. Although, one might argue that is not so different from what normal couples do, anyway.

I actually do think that's what happened, and it pisses me off a bit too. I think that the transfer effectively killed the original soul of the child, replacing it with that of the Old God.

[CybAnt1]

@CybAnt1: The world is full of bad people - so let's be bad people?

That would be overinterpreting my comment. Please don't do that just because you're itching for argument. 

I was stating additional fact, not in that case justification. 

I repeat, my own view remains that at the moment I personally don't know how selfish her act was, we can disagree on that, please don't twist my viewpoint into being "selfish is good!" 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:33 .

[Rotward]

FreshRevenge wrote...

How can people not like Morrigan? This puzzles me?

Ever taken her to the deep roads, and tried to destroy the anvil? She is quite selfish, and impulsive. I like her, but I could see a lot of people disliking her, just as many people dislike Liliana. 

Modifié par Rotward, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:53 .