264 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I'm hoping for Morrigan the Wiser

and less

Morrigan the Craven Myopic Cruel Manipulative ****

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

What if being possessed by the Archdemon effectively killed the original soul of the child? I know Morrigan said she barely considered it as such after only one night but maybe she was more apprehensive about it than she let on.
Plus, it's not simply a matter of bringing something like the OGB into existence but rather giving birth to serve your own best interests rather than those of the child. Although, one might argue that is not so different from what normal couples do, anyway.

I actually do think that's what happened, and it pisses me off a bit too. I think that the transfer effectively killed the original soul of the child, replacing it with that of the Old God.

Unless, of course, after only one night the original soul still hasn't been formed when the Archdemon's took its place.
But then, that raises a few questions. I mean, we know souls are real in DA but at which point do they form?
And if the Archdemon's soul could take root within the OGB's body, does that not mean that the "compartment" that stores the newly born soul had already been formed and, in which case, shouldn't the baby's original soul already be residing there?

You know, this is weird.

Indeed. We know nothing about the ecology of souls on Thedas. We know they exist, but we don't know what they are exactly. They don't appear to carry personality like we'd usually assume, because the way Morrigan talks about the child it actually isn't the Old God. Then there's the matter of Dumat and her still-functional altar, and on top of it it's rather likely that these things work differently for gods, or whatever name we give those entities.

It may work like in BG2/TOB, where the essence of the god carries certain predisposition but they can be overridden by the "vessel". The Bhaalspawn was very much their own person, in spite of carrying a part of a god's soul.

Do you think Dumat is truly dead?

Possibly the same way Bhaal was truly dead in the Baldur's Gate story. Was he?

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Possibly the same way Bhaal was truly dead in the Baldur's Gate story. Was he?

Totally gonna confess my ignorance on Baldur's Gate, as I have not played it.

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Possibly the same way Bhaal was truly dead in the Baldur's Gate story. Was he?

Totally gonna confess my ignorance on Baldur's Gate, as I have not played it.

The story is that the god died, but had foreknowledge of his death and made a plan to get himself resurrected. He fathered children who would each carry a part of his essence - soul, so to speak - and that essence would compel them to kill each other - he was the god of murder after all - concentrating it into one person again who would become his reincarnation. Your character is one of those Bhaalspawn - the one who ends up killing most of the others - and throughout the story, you can choose to either fight that essence or go along with it.

Now was the god truly dead? I guess not until - or unless - you fought the essence and it was transformed as a result.

In the same way, it could be that Dumat's soul still exists and seeks a new carrier, and in the same way Morrigan might influence what the child carrying Urthemiel's soul will become.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:03 .

[Lord Raijin]

Morrigan played Skyrim and wanted to create a dragonborn of her very own. She went as planned and used the Warden commander or Alistair to create her ultimate dragon born; Old god baby. Now the next game we play we will become Dragon age version of Dragonborn. We will make mother proud

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote...

Morrigan was meant to be that way. She approves of every genocide, murder and cruelty decisions the player makes and disapproves of any nice things you decide to do. What do you expect from this character?

So far she has not decided to do anything noteworthy. Characters like Anders are very grey in what they do. But Morrigan was meant to black. Not the kinda black that destroys the world, the kind that dos anything for survival and more power. Amusingly as a mage herself morrigan approves of slaughtering all mages... However this doesn't make her any less interesting. She'll most likely play a very important role in Inquisition and it'll probably be a betrayal but we'll have to see, don't we?

Btw I did enjoy romancing her with a similar minded mage warden. Power and Survival > Everything. She got to +100 approval in no time as I made decisions to her liking!

She approved of the Annulment of the Circle in DAO, not of mages in general.  And I consider her as grey as Anders.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Morrigan was meant to be that way. She approves of every genocide, murder and cruelty decisions the player makes and disapproves of any nice things you decide to do. What do you expect from this character?

So far she has not decided to do anything noteworthy. Characters like Anders are very grey in what they do. But Morrigan was meant to black. Not the kinda black that destroys the world, the kind that dos anything for survival and more power. Amusingly as a mage herself morrigan approves of slaughtering all mages... However this doesn't make her any less interesting. She'll most likely play a very important role in Inquisition and it'll probably be a betrayal but we'll have to see, don't we?

Btw I did enjoy romancing her with a similar minded mage warden. Power and Survival > Everything. She got to +100 approval in no time as I made decisions to her liking!

She approved of the Annulment of the Circle in DAO, not of mages in general.  And I consider her as grey as Anders.

Based on her attitude in DAO she really can't be considered grey. In order to be grey the character usually has to be black to some extent to achieve a greater white. Anders is grey because he murdered innocents to grant freedom to mages. Illusive man was grey because he murderd and worse, all for sake of humanity. So a somewhat noble goal is needed to be considered grey. Also there is another sort of grey like Isabela and Zevran. Being a little black for pleasure, survival etc.. but there is always a limit like slavery or genocide. 

Morrigan on the other hand cares for no one but herself. She shows no sympathy for anyone and doesn't consider any action as too evil and actually enjoys destruction and death. She disapproves if you decide to help the village of redcliffe and approves if you abandon them. She likes see the circle anulled and disapproves if you agree to help them. She dissapporves if you destroy the anvil and approves if you save it. She approves greatly if you decide to help werewolves genocide the elves. She also approves if you defile the ahses.

Basically she is the only party member that approves of EVERY SINGLE evil action the character takes and most of the times shows her satisfaction by commenting on it. She openly agrees with the tevinter slaver when he says that he'll kill all the elves nearby to give more power to the warden if the warden lets the slaver go. Most importantly she's been fooling the warden all along and have been planning to use the warden all along, for her own ritual and selfishness. 

Morrigan is not grey, even if you gonna cosnider her one she is basically 99% black and 1% white. And this 1% is she not wanting to kill everyone on sight, that's it.

I cannot Fathom how someone can compare morrigan to Anders. Most importantly morrigan is not possessed while Anders is. And Anders still keeps most of his humanity while practicaly being an abomination.

Modifié par Rassler, 19 janvier 2014 - 10:26 .

[The Elder King]

First off, I need to clarify something:
1)being grey has nothing to do with 'being black for a greater white'. Zevran and Isabela don't have a bigger goal that justify their actions. And they have very few limits in their work (and Isabela walked the line once). And we have no clue what is Morrigan's real goal. By your definition of grayness, you should wait to know her goal before judging her.
2)keeping the Anvil isn't evil. It's at best morally questionable, but it has an enormous value for the dwarves. It might keeps them for being annihilated.
3)Killing the elves in DAO isn't evil, or at least not more than killing the werewolves, since the latter are (for what we know) unlucky innocents.
4)défile the Ashes isn't evil. It might be it'd clear what they really are. And at this point, I don't think it is. And to be clear, this is coming from a person who don't generally chose option 3 and 4.
As for Morrigan, yes, she support questionable things, which I heavily dislike. Anders supported selling Fenris. I don't care what reasons you might find, it doesn't change the fact that he supported slavery when he claims to be against it. At least Morrigan says that she doesn't care one bit of other people. 
As for Anders being an abomination, it count only in certain cases like Dissent, since andar woudn't have threatened Ella (though it shown the stupidity of spirit merging without any info). It doesn't count in Fenris' case or in endlessy tormenting Merrill, another trait that made him an hypocrite.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 janvier 2014 - 11:26 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

True i wouldn't put morrigan as grey due her being stupid evil crap she approves most dic*** actions even if they have no benefit at all or are harmfull for our mission pretty much she approves when we are mentally bullying dalish elf with werewolf wife for no reason as well when we kill merchant in lothering for no reason... her only bright side is if warden befriended her or she is in love with him...

[The Elder King]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

True i wouldn't put morrigan as grey due her being stupid evil crap she approves most dic*** actions even if they have no benefit at all or are harmfull for our mission pretty much she approves when we are mentally bullying dalish elf with werewolf wife for no reason as well when we kill merchant in lothering for no reason... her only bright side is if warden befriended her or she is in love with him...

She supported keeping the Anvil, which is definitely not harmful, since it benefits greatly the dwarves and our quest. Golems are much more powerful than dwarves.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

First off, I need to clarify something:
1)being grey has nothing to do with 'being black for a greater white'. Zevran and Isabela don't have a bigger goal that justify their actions. And they have very few limits in their work (and Isabela walked the line once). And we have no clue what is Morrigan's real goal. By your definition of grayness, you should wait to know her goal before judging her.
2)keeping the Anvil isn't evil. It's at best morally questionable, but it has an enormous value for the dwarves. It might keeps them for being annihilated.
3)Killing the elves in DAO isn't evil, or at least not more than killing the werewolves, since the latter are (for what we know) unlucky innocents.
4)défile the Ashes isn't evil. It might be it'd clear what they really are. And at this point, I don't think it is. And to be clear, this is coming from a person who don't generally chose option 3 and 4.
As for Morrigan, yes, she support questionable things, which I heavily dislike. Anders supported selling Fenris. I don't care what reasons you might find, it doesn't change the fact that he supported slavery when he claims to be against it. At least Morrigan says that she doesn't care one bit of other people. 
As for Anders being an abomination, it count only in certain cases like Dissent, since andar woudn't have threatened Ella (though it shown the stupidity of spirit merging without any info). It doesn't count in Fenris' case or in endlessy tormenting Merrill, another trait that made him an hypocrite.

Anders actually confesses that he has become the sole reason mages shouldn't be free and if Hawke doesn't support and convince him (rival) he will think this way until the end of the game and Justice forces him to do some things like the chantry scenario. So not much of a real hypocrite if he does this.

Anders supported selling Fenris to slavery, not slavery in general. He hated Fenris and seeing he is possessed by a spirit known as a force of Vengeance I think its quite natural. If you don't sell Fenris and tell him he has friends Anders will interup" not me". So yeah...

I was merely pointing out the morrigan approves of every action that is evil compared to its alternative, the named action itself is not evil, like the anvil quest. She basically approves of every cruel thing in the game, from bulliying someone to genociding elves to get more power. NONE of her actions can be considered white even a little bit. Unless we see more of her, by this point Morrigan's actions are pure black.

Also don't forget, Anders was a healer too, he probably saved hundreds of lives if not thousands. And he was ready to die as he believed people who he killed deserved Justice as well which further distances him from being a hypocrite. As I said Anders is a perfect example of grey character and its not even up for debate. But morrigan... I suspect we will see much more of her in Inquisition and the best we can do is to hold our judgement until then because right now she is just evil.

Modifié par Rassler, 19 janvier 2014 - 11:49 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

hhh89 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

True i wouldn't put morrigan as grey due her being stupid evil crap she approves most dic*** actions even if they have no benefit at all or are harmfull for our mission pretty much she approves when we are mentally bullying dalish elf with werewolf wife for no reason as well when we kill merchant in lothering for no reason... her only bright side is if warden befriended her or she is in love with him...

She supported keeping the Anvil, which is definitely not harmful, since it benefits greatly the dwarves and our quest. Golems are much more powerful than dwarves.

Massive missing the point ... "even if they have no benefit at all or are harmfull for our mission " she is sadistic bit*** that support all "evil" options so pretty much every her suggestion is pointed just to make someone suffer... as i pointed helping someone then she says no (even it could give us benefit unless of course helping someone is makeing life miserable then yes) but causing harm or ignoring someone then she is always eager...

Not grey character almost pure black like darth sidious.... as i said her only bright side is if we are friend with her then she lacks of it...  

[In Exile]

Jilinthar wrote...
However, in that comic she seems to struggle because she has come to care for the people she is with, out of all companions she asks ALISTAIR about his moral ideas. The guy who used to be her least favourite one, but apparently she has come to respect his views that differ a lot from her own, enough to actually look to him for advice. Like...wow.

I think that script was for a female Warden who had romanced Alistair, so certainly saying "I need to have sex with your lover and then use the child we sire as a receptacle for the archdemon's soul" might be as cruel as the alternative. 

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: I should've specified that Anders is an hypocrite in regards of Merrill earlier in the game. Regardless of the path you are with him, he aknowledged (sort of) that he's an abomination in a banter with Merrill. It doesn't change the fact that he was an hypocrite.
As for Fenris, I already said that I don't care one bit of his reason. I know pretty well he Agreed in selling Fenris because he hates him; but hating a person doesn't mean you should support selling him to slavery, expecially if you're fighting against what you believe is slavery. He supported selling a person to a slave. So in that case, he supported the Tevinter slavery system. For me, he sull'arte an evil action.
And you're missing my point about those quests. I don't believe that keeping the Anvil is evil compared to the alternative of destroy it. I don't believe that killing the elves is evil compared to killing the dalish (in both cases you'd be killing innocent people, who suffer from the decision of an elf).
I'm not saying that she doesn't support evil actions, but that not every choices she support are evil.
For me, a NPC to be considered has to support slavery, has to enjoy killing and enslaving innocents, wants to destroy the world, or something similar. Morrigan doesn't support those choices because she endorses slavery, or enjoys see people die and suffer. She simply doesn't care. Being (extremely) selfish doesn't mean, in my opinion, that an NPC is black.

@thekomandorshepard: the post I responded to doesn't have the meaning you stated later. If this is what you meant, you should edit your first.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I have always been suspicious of Morrigan.
I have given her the benefit of the doubt, up until she was all "blood magic is cool, let's kill all those slaves" (this is downright very evil) and "Frak Redcliffe".

I see some of her apologists go the "she's not REALLY evil. She doesn't giggle maniacly while killing little children" route of thought. That the only evil is cartoony evil. This is so wrong it's laughable.

****

The whole Archdemon confuses me even more. He is supposed to be a tainted/corrupted OldGod.
You kill him and his soul jumps to another tainted body. But why a TAINTED body?
Does the taint corrupt the very soul? If only the body is corrupted by the taint, then the soul of the Old god should be free to go anywhere...right?
So is the soul itself tainted (?? very big implications here, for all grey Wardens too ??) or was the OldGod always like that?
How can Morrigan clense the taint?
How can she be trusted?
She isn't a moral person to begin with, deliberately hides very important stuff from you, and she is supposed to be trusted with raising a god child????

Hell no.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 janvier 2014 - 08:45 .

[The Elder King]

Well, to be fair, you'd have known from her dialogue already that she's not against blood magic.
I heavily disliked her support to the sacrifice in the Alienage quest. I do believe that it's an evil choice. But supporting an evil choice doesn't make you evil. Do you consider Loghain evil for selling elves to Tevinter? Do you consider Sten evil because he slaughtered an entire farmhold?

Modifié par hhh89, 20 janvier 2014 - 11:04 .

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you'd have known from her dialogue already that she's not against blood magic.
I heavily disliked her support to the sacrifice in the Alienage quest. I do believe that it's an evil choice. But supporting an evil choice doesn't make you evil. Do you consider Loghain evil for selling elves to Tevinter? Do you consider Sten evil because he slaughtered an entire farmhold?

Both Loghian and Sten are willing to redeem themselves. Morrigan is not. Hell even Anders wants to redeem himself by either wanting to die for his crime or help save lives to redeem himelf. Morrigan just doen't care at all. Besides Loghain and Sten were quite honorable before their so called evil choices. Morrigan was born to be this way. Blame Flemeth if you wish, its how things are. I am personally holding my judgement to be cast after Inquisition but if we are to judge her right at this moment, she seems quite evil to me. The only white thing about her is the fact that she does not commit any serious evil herself which is the main reason I'm holding my judgement.

[The Elder King]

Why would Morrigan redeem herself? She supported an evil action, but she didn't do it. If you (as me) didn't sacrifice those slaves, nothing happened. And in plently of my playthroughs she wasn't even there.
I don't know how you can say that Sten was honourable before that event, since we know absolutely nothing about him before that, other that he's a commander sent to investigate the Blight.

And I disagree that she was BORN this way. That it's a stupid thing to say. You can say that she grown to be like this, since she was educated by Flemeth. But nobody is born to be a determinate type of person.
The point that Morrigan doesn't care is right. She doesn't care about other people. She cares only another her survival. I don't equate being selfish with being evil though.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

Why would Morrigan redeem herself? She supported an evil action, but she didn't do it. If you (as me) didn't sacrifice those slaves, nothing happened. And in plently of my playthroughs she wasn't even there.
I don't know how you can say that Sten was honourable before that event, since we know absolutely nothing about him before that, other that he's a commander sent to investigate the Blight.

And I disagree that she was BORN this way. That it's a stupid thing to say. You can say that she grown to be like this, since she was educated by Flemeth. But nobody is born to be a determinate type of person.
The point that Morrigan doesn't care is right. She doesn't care about other people. She cares only another her survival. I don't equate being selfish with being evil though.

Well in comparison to other selfish characters we were introduced to she is much harsher, but maybe that's just me. I personally think she is selfish enough to be evil, selfishness in general in not that evil but she is just past the limit of selfishness. If there was a way to kill every elf in the world to gain more power morrigan would do it in a heartbeat, you know she would.

And yes i meant born an raised that way. Her birth wasn't natural too I believe. Flemeth ensures her childs are always girl and born with magic.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: we don't really know how Morrigan is born. She stated herself in DAO that there's the possibility Flemeth isn't her biological mother. Unless you're talking about something Yavana said in the comics?
I honestly don't think she'd sacrifice a whole race for become more powerful. Consider that she doesn't go sacrificing people around to become more powerful. Though I don't understand your focus on the elves. You do realize that she'd have Agreed with that deal in DAO regardless if the sacrifices are elves, dwarves or humans, slaves or free, right?

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you'd have known from her dialogue already that she's not against blood magic.
I heavily disliked her support to the sacrifice in the Alienage quest. I do believe that it's an evil choice. But supporting an evil choice doesn't make you evil. Do you consider Loghain evil for selling elves to Tevinter? Do you consider Sten evil because he slaughtered an entire farmhold?

Yes, I consider Loghain evil.

And I consider Sten unstable and stupid.

I'm at a loss as to what qualifies as evil anymore. Maniacal laugh and moustache twirling?

[dragonflight288]

Anders supported selling Fenris to slavery, not slavery in general. He hated Fenris and seeing he is possessed by a spirit known as a force of Vengeance I think its quite natural. If you don't sell Fenris and tell him he has friends Anders will interup" not me". So yeah...

Yeah....that makes sense....

"I oppose slavery, but I think this guy is a turd so slavery is perfectly fine so long as he's the slave and I'm not."

I very much prefer Merrill. Fenris and Anders both treat her absolutely atrociously, and she's equally appalled if you mistreat either of them. She strongly opposes sending Fenris back to Denarius even though she doesn't like him.

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, I consider Loghain evil.

And I consider Sten unstable and stupid.

I'm at a loss as to what qualifies as evil anymore. Maniacal laugh and moustache twirling?

I think a person is evil if he enjoys killing and torturing people, if he enslaves people, if he wants to kill thousands of people. Something similar. If not, I don't think a person is evil. Though that doesn't mean that this person is good either. There's a middle ground between black and white.

[Jaison1986]

IDK. Sometimes, Morrigan sounds like she is cruel and evil, other she is just being logical. For example, when she says in Lothering that she doesn't blame the merchant, and most of the people there would do the same, I actually agree, or with the Anvil being preserved. I also agree that keeping it would make it an priceless resource. But there are times she is just being gratuitious, like agreeing on sacrificing the elves, or just leaving Redcliffe to it's fate.

But the thing about her is that Witch hunt seems to have changed something about her. She lacks the vile nature from before. Almost as if the process of becoming an mother changed something in her.

[dragonflight288]

Though that doesn't mean that this person is good either. There's a middle ground between black and white.

I respect you and your opinions, but I actually have to disagree here. Maybe I simply ascribe to a different philosophy than you and I know there can be shades of grey, but more often than not I feel like good and evil are constants, alongside apathy. But I do believe that there are varying levels of good and evil.

I know it's not just me who believes this, but if I'm going to call something good or evil, that thing will ALWAYS be good or evil. I know it gets complicated if someone does an evil thing with good motivations, say stealing just so they have the money to put food on the table for their starving kids and that's really why they did it, but they still did steal, and if they get caught and arrested, then the kids would not only lose their care-giver but also their father/mother or whoever, and they end up worse off than before.