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[Grieving Natashina]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@MevenSelas: The Orlesian court had a name for Vivienne (Madame de Fer), which means she spent time in it. I woudn't say that mages have no space in the court.

But that's an Senior/almost First Enchanter versus an apostate like Morrigan.

Someone could lie for Morrigan, and could claim she's a Circle mage.  Someone that is a very good at lying and one that has a larger unknown goal, like Morrigan.  Someone that is friends with the Divine (a Divine that has been known to strongly bend the truth in the past for the greater good.)  Leliana.  While they never got along all that well, they knew how to put their differences aside for a greater purpose, and didn't actively hate each other (unlike Morrigan's relationships with Wynne and Alistair.)   Orlais definitely seems to be a major focus point in Inquisition and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers wove those two story threads together.

[dragonflight288]

I think Celene would want an apostate nearby as a direct result of dealing with a Civil War and an elven rebellion. She'll want someone nearby who is far more powerful than she appears, and wouldn't necessarily be seen as an immediate threat because she wouldn't be a known apostate.

Morrigan: Men are always ready to believe two things about a woman. One, that she is weak, and two, that she finds him attractive.

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@MevenSelas: The Orlesian court had a name for Vivienne (Madame de Fer), which means she spent time in it. I woudn't say that mages have no space in the court.

But that's an Senior/almost First Enchanter versus an apostate like Morrigan.

Indeed, but I didn't mean that she's open about her magic. I do believe that she's probably hiding to most the fact she's a mage. My point was about mages in general not being present at court.
Though I woudn't discount the possibly of some lies to hide her apostate status, and not her mage nature.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 janvier 2014 - 09:08 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Celene would want an apostate nearby as a direct result of dealing with a Civil War and an elven rebellion. She'll want someone nearby who is far more powerful than she appears, and wouldn't necessarily be seen as an immediate threat because she wouldn't be a known apostate.

Morrigan: Men are always ready to believe two things about a woman. One, that she is weak, and two, that she finds him attractive.

In all honesty, Morrigan is probably like a bodyguard, more or less.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

In all honesty, Morrigan is probably like a bodyguard, more or less.

Based on what I know of Morrigan, Celene would have to include some pretty substantial benefits or signing-bonuses for Morrigan to even consider agreeing. 

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

In all honesty, Morrigan is probably like a bodyguard, more or less.

Based on what I know of Morrigan, Celene would have to include some pretty substantial benefits or signing-bonuses for Morrigan to even consider agreeing. 

Oh most definitely. For Morrigan to even consider helping Celene, the Empress must have something Morrigan really wants.

[Iron Fist]

The REAL real grimoire perhaps?

[dragonflight288]

MevenSelas wrote...

The REAL real grimoire perhaps?

Or something regarding the Old God Baby for those who did the ritual. 

[Iron Fist]

dragonflight288 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

The REAL real grimoire perhaps?

Or something regarding the Old God Baby for those who did the ritual. 

Maybe it's all one tome.

[The Elder King]

dragonflight288 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

The REAL real grimoire perhaps?

Or something regarding the Old God Baby for those who did the ritual. 

I doubt it'll be different based on the DR choice, in all honesty.

[Martyr1777]

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you'd have known from her dialogue already that she's not against blood magic.
I heavily disliked her support to the sacrifice in the Alienage quest. I do believe that it's an evil choice. But supporting an evil choice doesn't make you evil. Do you consider Loghain evil for selling elves to Tevinter? Do you consider Sten evil because he slaughtered an entire farmhold?

Both Loghian and Sten are willing to redeem themselves. Morrigan is not. Hell even Anders wants to redeem himself by either wanting to die for his crime or help save lives to redeem himelf. Morrigan just doen't care at all. Besides Loghain and Sten were quite honorable before their so called evil choices. Morrigan was born to be this way. Blame Flemeth if you wish, its how things are. I am personally holding my judgement to be cast after Inquisition but if we are to judge her right at this moment, she seems quite evil to me. The only white thing about her is the fact that she does not commit any serious evil herself which is the main reason I'm holding my judgement.

I find this intereesting and funny...

Sten and Loghain are repentant, yes, they've done terrible things and feel bad for it. But you say Morrigan doesn't want to redeem herself... yet she hasn't actually DONE anything to redeem herself from. She talks big but has never actually commited a single evil act.

So aside from the fact of the Anvil, the ashes, or the Elves vs Werewolves really not being black or white it doesn't matter what she -SAYS- if she doesn't actually act on any of it. She may disagree to what people see as a more moral choice to decisions but she doesn't actually go around slaughtering people or leaving them to die. Yes she is very self centered, so obviously she would say forget Redcliffe and move on to something else. There is a blight they need to stay ahead of and to a self centered person the situation is a lost cause, why waste the valuable time. But if you stay to help he still helps as well, she's not off killing farmers, leaving a king to die, or blowing up a Chantry. She just says, this is power or that is a waste of time.

If anything she is grey simply because she is so perfectly uncarring and cold hearted. She see's not only what would grat her (and her companions) the most power but also a very simple view of how to get things done. I mean I can see any number of people in real life that have that same mentality.

So imo, Morrigan is very much grey and has nothing to atone for because she's never done anything wrong. Hell even preachy Wynne is worse of then Morrigan, Morrigan may be an appostate but she's not possesed and regardless of the reality of that possesion if the Templars knew Wynne would have been a goner.

[Rotward]

Plot twist: Flemmeth already possessed Morrigan. Her daughters are infected with a fragment of Flemmeth from birth, and as they grow, they become Flemmeth. That's why Morrigan has no sisters, and that's how Flemmeth survived DA:O.

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, I consider Loghain evil.

And I consider Sten unstable and stupid.

I'm at a loss as to what qualifies as evil anymore. Maniacal laugh and moustache twirling?

I think a person is evil if he enjoys killing and torturing people, if he enslaves people, if he wants to kill thousands of people. Something similar. If not, I don't think a person is evil. Though that doesn't mean that this person is good either. There's a middle ground between black and white.

Then by that definition, only 5 people in the entire world are evil.

But selfishness, arrogance, lust, desire for power/fame/fortune - when those things cause you to harm others, to completely ignore/forget things like empathy, mercy, etc.... then they ARE evil.
Not EEEEEVIL evil, but still...

Morrigan is quite simply morally bankrupt.
You say that doesn't make her evil because reasons.
She has a nice smile and bweebs, therefore she can't be all that bad, right?
You do know that even the greatest monsters in human history are still human and have some good qualities to them, right?

Morrigan, while she hasn't directly done anything wrong, is like a viper. Like Wormtounge.
A characters whom I would never want to be associated in RL, as her views and ideas disgust me.
I tolerated her because she was usefull, but other than that I wouldn't trust her farther than I could throw her.

And frankly, people defending her enthusiastic approval of needlesly sacrificing slaves disgusts me too.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 janvier 2014 - 10:40 .

[Iron Fist]

Rotward wrote...

Plot twist: Flemmeth already possessed Morrigan. Her daughters are infected with a fragment of Flemmeth from birth, and as they grow, they become Flemmeth. That's why Morrigan has no sisters, and that's how Flemmeth survived DA:O.

Morrigan does have at least one sister.

And Flemeth survived DAO because she (presumably) broke her soul apart before being killed by the Warden.

[Rotward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, I consider Loghain evil.

And I consider Sten unstable and stupid.

I'm at a loss as to what qualifies as evil anymore. Maniacal laugh and moustache twirling?

I think a person is evil if he enjoys killing and torturing people, if he enslaves people, if he wants to kill thousands of people. Something similar. If not, I don't think a person is evil. Though that doesn't mean that this person is good either. There's a middle ground between black and white.

Then by that definition, only 5 people in the entire world are evil.

But selfishness, arrogance, lust, desire for power/fame/fortune - when those things cause you to harm others, to completely ignore/forget things like empathy, mercy, etc.... then they ARE evil.
Not EEEEEVIL evil, but still...

Morrigan is quite simply morally bankrupt.
You say that doesn't make her evil because reasons.
She has a nice smile and bweebs, therefore she can't be all that bad, right?
You do know that even the greatest monsters in human history are still human and have some good qualities to them, right?

Morrigan, while she hasn't directly done anything wrong, is like a viper. Like Wormtounge.
A characters whom I would never want to be associated in RL, as her views and ideas disgust me.
I tolerated her because she was usefull, but other than that I wouldn't trust her farther than I could throw her.

And frankly, people defending her enthusiastic approval of needlesly sacrificing slaves disgusts me too.

Evil is where the means and end are both amoral. Good is where the means and end are both moral. I have never heard of, met, or imagined a truly good person. True evil's a little more common, but not much.

Morrigan is gray, but she's not evil. She doesn't want the world to end, or to hurt people needlessly. She's happy to use any means to reach her end, but her end (that we know of) is beneficial. Certainly not someone I'd trust or call good, but she's in the gray area. 

[The Elder King]

@Lotion Soronnar: I don't believe that Loghain is evil either. It must be because of his charming smile and his nice muscles, right? I never talked about Morrigan's (supposed,since you're assuming I find he attractive) beauty in any of my post. You could believe I'm a complete moron for my opinions, but don't put words in my mouth.
And I never said I support or defend her support of sacrificing slaves. Find where did I defended her for that. I stated that based on my beliefs she's not evil. That doesn't mean I think she's a good person, or that I woud trust her.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



Morrigan, while she hasn't directly done anything wrong, is like a viper. Like Wormtounge.
A characters whom I would never want to be associated in RL, as her views and ideas disgust me.
I tolerated her because she was usefull, but other than that I wouldn't trust her farther than I could throw her.

And frankly, people defending her enthusiastic approval of needlesly sacrificing slaves disgusts me too.

Jeez. Rather harsh.
<_<

[EmperorSahlertz]

I am gonna go out on a limb here and claim that Morrigan PROBABLY fileld in the blanks for the Warden who followed her through the Eluvian. The other Wardens (ie. the ones she didn't love) could not be trusted, so she never actually revealed everything to them. Funny how trust plays a factor in such things eh?

[lady_v23]

I don't think she's a betrayer. She may be a ****, but I don't think she's that cynical to lie and manipulate her 'sister' (my warden) for the entire game.

besides! I remember reading somewhere that the OGB changes her. Like morrigan with child is softer than morrigan without child.

[The Elder King]

lady_v23 wrote...

I don't think she's a betrayer. She may be a ****, but I don't think she's that cynical to lie and manipulate her 'sister' (my warden) for the entire game.

besides! I remember reading somewhere that the OGB changes her. Like morrigan with child is softer than morrigan without child.

She kind of covered the truth about her presence in the party. Ans she's enough cynical to leave the Warden before the battle if he/she doesn't agree to do the DR, regardless if you're her best friend of lover.

[lady_v23]

hhh89 wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

I don't think she's a betrayer. She may be a ****, but I don't think she's that cynical to lie and manipulate her 'sister' (my warden) for the entire game.

besides! I remember reading somewhere that the OGB changes her. Like morrigan with child is softer than morrigan without child.

She kind of covered the truth about her presence in the party. Ans she's enough cynical to leave the Warden before the battle if he/she doesn't agree to do the DR, regardless if you're her best friend of lover.

...you do have a point.  But to be fair, she does look sad when she says that she'll leave if you don't do the DR.  Well.. I'm assuming she looked sad.  Those graphics and my tv do not get along.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I am gonna go out on a limb here and claim that Morrigan PROBABLY fileld in the blanks for the Warden who followed her through the Eluvian. The other Wardens (ie. the ones she didn't love) could not be trusted, so she never actually revealed everything to them. Funny how trust plays a factor in such things eh?

She never revealed anything to anyone.

If her goals are truly good, then she shouldn't really keep everything she does a secret.

I like her as a character, but as a person? No.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Morrigan the Temptress
She had that half-nude outfit worn for a purpose!

Plus as Lotion said, she was untrue, I like her as a character, but as a person? No.

[Banxey]

I like Morrigan as a person. She's a product of her environment and when her environment changed she started to change. She never actually hurt anyone that wasn't attacking us, and a few times she even begrudgingly admitted she may be wrong.

I never felt betrayed by her, but I did feel sad for her.

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I like her as a character, but as a person? No.

I never thought I could agree with you on character, especially a mage but here we are 

She is very well written and has the looks to charm. All my male characters romanced her. And I'm not male myself.

Anyway do you guys think there is slightest chance we can get her as companion? Because if I remember correctly we can dismiss some companions to gather who we like so there will me more than 9 but we can only have 9. I'd rather have her than lets say cullen for example. She is the kind of evil that I like to have on my side. 

Modifié par Rassler, 21 janvier 2014 - 01:29 .