1258 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are hunted and threatened; their religious views are even outlawed in Andrastian lands. Cautioning people away, given the circumstances, doesn't make the Dalish villainous. 

What exactly gives elves the right to "caution", more like "threaten", people away from any place? Is wherever they decide to set up shop suddenly private propriety?

What gives the elves the right to protect themselves against templars pursuing them? Against Andrastians who are trying to coerce them to convert? Against potential mobs who view them as heathens, and might try to kill them? Against strangers who might attempt to harm them? What exactly is the point of your question when it's not exactly a secret why the Dalish would want to protect themselves against potential enemies?

MisterJB wrote...

What if a community relies upon a forest for firewood, pelts or food? Do the elves care? 

It's mentioned they typically try to avoid humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

Fortunately with such a broad breadth of experience with other people and their opinions, we see many templars who are sympathetic and friendly towards mages. Unfortunately with the Dalish, they don't have an opportunity to experience many other viewpoints.

We've seen plenty of Dalish elves that are not hostile towards City Elves or outsiders in general. I'm pretty sure if you counted all the Dalish NPCs reactions towards, you'd find a much higher number who are friendly or neutral than ones who are hostile. And there's also those that start cold or hostile and then apologise afterward.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 01:05 .

[Statare]

It's interesting that what the Dalish do is labeled by some as 'arrogant', 'xenophobic' or 'racist'. Mostly they are just trying to survive, both physically and culturally, in a world that is actively trying to destroy them. Humans in Thedas are actually xenophobic, arrogant, and racist. Also, murderous and genocidal. Elves are mostly just a disenfranchised minority trying to simply live, and potentially reclaim their identity.

It will be interesting, though, to see what happens with the Dalish and City Elves in Orlais.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

The Dalish have more in common with an endangered species than a racist group in that respect.   They will literally go extinct as a species if they interbreed with humans too much.  

Skinheads think "white" people will go extict if they "interbreed" with non-"white" people. That's what racists think. But what it means to be an "elf" is up to the elves themselves to define. If every single elf decides tommorw that they want a human parter, that's their right. Just like it's their right if they decide to have S/S relationships exclusive.

You realize how utterly ridiculous that comparison is, right? In the fantasy realm of Thedas, the children of elves and non-elves produces non-elves. The developers have stated thus. In the real world, we are all human. There are no elves, no dwarves, and no kossith. The children of humans and humans are children. Why you feel the need to bring in real world racism with a fantasy union between elves and non-elves that has no real world equivalent is beyond me.

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Fortunately with such a broad breadth of experience with other people and their opinions, we see many templars who are sympathetic and friendly towards mages. Unfortunately with the Dalish, they don't have an opportunity to experience many other viewpoints.

We've seen Dalish elves that are not hostile towards City Elves.

And we see Tevinter magisters like Adralla. The Dalish culture encourages racist attitudes. So do human cultures in Thedas for that matter, but its usually more subtle. The people of a Dalish tribe are unfortunate in that they are less exposed to other viewpoints and are so more likely to simply believe what they'd been taught.

[Fast Jimmy]

Statare wrote...

It's interesting that what the Dalish do is labeled by some as 'arrogant', 'xenophobic' or 'racist'. Mostly they are just trying to survive, both physically and culturally, in a world that is actively trying to destroy them. Humans in Thedas are actually xenophobic, arrogant, and racist. Also, murderous and genocidal. Elves are mostly just a disenfranchised minority trying to simply live, and potentially reclaim their identity.

It will be interesting, though, to see what happens with the Dalish and City Elves in Orlais.

What do you want for the Dalish, then? That would be my question. 

If you would say to give them their own land, then I'd ask the obvious - what kingdom or nation would give up their land and become neighbors to a group who are openly hostile and who view any contact with humans, even diplomatic, as a contagion? That's inviting conflict, pure and simple. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

And we see Tevinter magisters like Adralla. The Dalish culture encourages racist attitudes. So do human cultures in Thedas for that matter, but its usually more subtle. The people of a Dalish tribe are unfortunate in that they are less exposed to other viewpoints and are so more likely to simply believe what they'd been taught.

I really don't think so. All the most overt racism comes from humans in the games.

[Vandicus]

Statare wrote...

It's interesting that what the Dalish do is labeled by some as 'arrogant', 'xenophobic' or 'racist'. Mostly they are just trying to survive, both physically and culturally, in a world that is actively trying to destroy them. Humans in Thedas are actually xenophobic, arrogant, and racist. Also, murderous and genocidal. Elves are mostly just a disenfranchised minority trying to simply live, and potentially reclaim their identity.

It will be interesting, though, to see what happens with the Dalish and City Elves in Orlais.

The act of being on their own is merely termed isolationist. The Dalish we have encountered, such as Velanna, are frequently racist, xenophobic, and arrogant. There are exceptions of course. Marethari doesn't come across as arrogant, xenophobic, or racist. Neither does Merrill. Each tribe being more or less insular, this will of course vary heavily from tribe to tribe.

Many humans in Thedas are racist. I wouldn't say xenophobic since regular trade with other races is very common for humans and they certainly don't deport members of other races. Nothing seems to suggest that humans are commonly arrogant about the fact that they're human. Dalish are commonly arrogant towards City Elves that they are Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The ancestors of the Dalish dealt with centuries of slavery and oppression, losing two homelands, the continual subjugation of their city brethren, and are nomadic because they are actively hunted down by armed soldiers of the dominant human religion of Thedas. I'm not surprised some Dalish are wary of humans as a result. 

Yes I understand why the Dalish are taught to fear and sometimes to hate humans. I also understand why they're raised to look down on City Elves. That doesn't make the behavior worthy of positive portrayal.

If anything the way Dalish are taught to look at humans reminds me of how templars are taught to look at mages. Fortunately with such a broad breadth of experience with other people and their opinions, we see many templars who are sympathetic and friendly towards mages. Unfortunately with the Dalish, they don't have an opportunity to experience many other viewpoints. 

The Dalish aren't taught to hate humans. Velanna was exiled for this, and her clan shows humans no contempt when they meet the Warden-Commander and his eclectic entourage. Lanaya, Marethari, Merrill, and others aren't hostile to humans, either. I'm not certain why you think the Dalish are raised to hate humans.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 janvier 2014 - 01:11 .

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

And we see Tevinter magisters like Adralla. The Dalish culture encourages racist attitudes. So do human cultures in Thedas for that matter, but its usually more subtle. The people of a Dalish tribe are unfortunate in that they are less exposed to other viewpoints and are so more likely to simply believe what they'd been taught.

I really don't think so. All the most overt racism comes from humans in the games.

Care to list a few acts committed against an elf, purely because they were an elf? Most everything that's been brought up so far in the thread has also been something humans regularly do to other humans.

That's why I consider the Dalish typically opening conversations with racial slurs more overt than what your average human does.

[Statare]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Statare wrote...

It's interesting that what the Dalish do is labeled by some as 'arrogant', 'xenophobic' or 'racist'. Mostly they are just trying to survive, both physically and culturally, in a world that is actively trying to destroy them. Humans in Thedas are actually xenophobic, arrogant, and racist. Also, murderous and genocidal. Elves are mostly just a disenfranchised minority trying to simply live, and potentially reclaim their identity.

It will be interesting, though, to see what happens with the Dalish and City Elves in Orlais.

What do you want for the Dalish, then? That would be my question. 

If you would say to give them their own land, then I'd ask the obvious - what kingdom or nation would give up their land and become neighbors to a group who are openly hostile and who view any contact with humans, even diplomatic, as a contagion? That's inviting conflict, pure and simple. 

I really don't know what would be the best. It is a tenuous situation. If they get a new land, it's pretty much guaranteed to get attacked by humans, like you said. The Dalish as a dispearsed nomadic group actually have a better chance of resisting (a moving target is harder to hit). Yet, if the City Elves and the Dalish unite and get the support of powerful humans in Orlais (Celene seems sympathetic, but that could change) they might actualyl get somewhere. Even so, they'd probably not be able to keep thier lands / independence long.

I was more bringing up that I think it is bizarre that there is a lot of labeling the Dalish as unjustifiably isolationist. I think they are isolationists because they've seen too often what happens when they interact with humans.

EDIT: I do also think that the Elves are in an impossible situation. They can't ever actually rebuild, because to do that they'd have to be completely isolated from humans. Even so, it is said on the wiki that some Dalish clans have amicable relations with humans. I do think that we have a slightly negative view of the Dalish at this point. They could be more willing to talk and negotiate then we think. If you remember in DAO, if you ask for the Dalish boon, the reason it fails if Lanaya is keeper is not because of the Dalish being antagonistic, but because of the humans.

Modifié par Statare, 19 janvier 2014 - 01:17 .

[Veruin]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I really don't think so. All the most overt racism comes from humans in the games.

Humans are the dominant faction and we interact with them much more.  So of course we see more human racism than dwarven/elven.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The ancestors of the Dalish dealt with centuries of slavery and oppression, losing two homelands, the continual subjugation of their city brethren, and are nomadic because they are actively hunted down by armed soldiers of the dominant human religion of Thedas. I'm not surprised some Dalish are wary of humans as a result. 

Yes I understand why the Dalish are taught to fear and sometimes to hate humans. I also understand why they're raised to look down on City Elves. That doesn't make the behavior worthy of positive portrayal.

If anything the way Dalish are taught to look at humans reminds me of how templars are taught to look at mages. Fortunately with such a broad breadth of experience with other people and their opinions, we see many templars who are sympathetic and friendly towards mages. Unfortunately with the Dalish, they don't have an opportunity to experience many other viewpoints. 

The Dalish aren't taught to hate humans. Velanna was exiled for this, and her clan shows humans no contempt when they meet the Warden-Commander and his eclectic entourage. Lanaya, Marethari, Merrill, and others aren't hostile to humans, either. I'm not certain why you think the Dalish are raised to hate humans.

The Dalish who dislike humans don't seem to be fearful, but rather hostile. So I am running on the assumption that their harsh attitudes are not reflective of them concealing fear.

The Dalish are taught that the humans are the cause of basically everything wrong with them, up to and including the fact that they can die. Its rather similar to templars being educated on the dangers of magic. Mages cause the Darkspawn. Humans caused us to lose immortality. Always be wary of humans. A mage is always an unknown.

While neither set of teachings overtly teaches one to hate humans or mages, they're certainly well geared towards making people despise members of those groups.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You realize how utterly ridiculous that comparison is, right? In the fantasy realm of Thedas, the children of elves and non-elves produces non-elves.  

It's only ridiculous to you because of how dedicated you are to a view of racial purity that IRL would be hardline racist. People can be celibate IRL. They can have S/S relationships. They can have heterosexual relationships without having children. None of this is a "threat" to the race, except in the heads of people who populate websites like stormfront that believe e.g. the "white" race is going to dissapear. 

Why you feel the need to bring in real world racism with a fantasy union between elves and non-elves that has no real world equivalent is beyond me. 

No matter how hard you close your eyes to it, it's the same thing. The only difference is that you think the IRL racists are wrong and "white" isn't  a real special subgroup of humans, and you think the fantasy race of "elves" is a special subgroup of humans. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize how utterly ridiculous that comparison is, right? In the fantasy realm of Thedas, the children of elves and non-elves produces non-elves.  

It's only ridiculous to you because of how dedicated you are to a view of racial purity that IRL would be hardline racist. People can be celibate IRL. They can have S/S relationships. They can have heterosexual relationships without having children. None of this is a "threat" to the race, except in the heads of people who populate websites like stormfront that believe e.g. the "white" race is going to dissapear.

My Surana Warden romanced Morrigan, and my apostate Hawke romanced Merrill. I have no problem with humans and elves romancing each other, but I do acknowledge the children of these unions are technically going to be human.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why you feel the need to bring in real world racism with a fantasy union between elves and non-elves that has no real world equivalent is beyond me.

No matter how hard you close your eyes to it, it's the same thing. The only difference is that you think the IRL racists are wrong and "white" isn't  a real special subgroup of humans, and you think the fantasy race of "elves" is a special subgroup of humans. 

Elves aren't humans or sub-humans; they are, quite literally, a different, sentient species.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 janvier 2014 - 01:24 .

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
 Elves are not a subgroup of humans. Your real world comparison has no merit.

I mispoke. Elves are "humans" in the sense that they're basically (from our external POV) pointy-eared people. Their culture is an expy of IRL culture, and the only difference is the divine fiat that that children between elves and elves come out looking different. 

But the only way to justify that elves are a different "race" is the same reasoning that racists IRL use to say that "whites" are a race, etc. That's the problem with fantasy races as a whole: they embody a racist ideology that as a society we should all move beyond. 

But yes, score your cheap potshot and declare victory because of that. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 01:28 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
My Surana Warden romanced Morrigan, and my apostate Hawke romanced Merrill. I have no problem with humans and elves romancing each other, but I do acknowledge the children of these unions are technically going to be human.

No. It takes a whole host of what are IRL racist beliefs to distinguish between elves and humans. You have to dismiss culture as 100% unimportant. You have to dismiss traits as 100% unimportant. You have to say that, because of how they look and their children will look, they are not elven. 

But that's of course problematic, because you'd be the first to say that CEs are not properly elven because they don't have elven culture.

Elves aren't humans or sub-humans; they are, quite literally, a different, sentient species.

Score your cheap potshot because I mispoke. I clarified what I said in the above post. 

[Fast Jimmy]

EDIT: I do also think that the Elves are in an impossible situation. They can't ever actually rebuild, because to do that they'd have to be completely isolated from humans.

Now, hold the phone... Elves are no more required to separate themselves from humans than dwarves. Their stories of immortality are legends that are totally unverifiable. There has been more time elapsed since Andraste claimed to be married to God than an elf was allegedly immortal. Both claims should be viewed as just as skeptical.

Even if this was true, there is no proof or evidence that further isolation from humans would return this. What if the cause was not the presence of humans, but something that happened to elves? To the Fade? To something else entirely? What if Arthalan's destruction destroyed some artifact that have elves immortality, something that no amount of isolation from humans would cure (and where the presence of humans would not have actually caused the loss of immortality)?

There are WAY too many factors at play for any elf to base their entire race's continued suffering and hardship on a myth that may not be cured even with further isolation. Gaider has said himself that, despite generations of isolation, the Dalish only live longer than CE's to the same degree as one would expect living outside of filth and poverty and a culture of activity and exercise. So the goal should not be, CANNOT be, "let's live in a cave until we get our immortality back." That is pure insanity.

If the elves rally and try to establish their own nation, it should be done with the full intention of becoming a true nation - open to trade, accepting of other races diplomats and ambassadors and, all in all, being a nation, not trying to hide themselves on some type of nature preserve.

[Karach_Blade]

Am I the only person who played a Dalish who wasn't a racist? O,o Yes, the City Elves confused my Warden, but neither did he hate all humans.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish aren't taught to hate humans. Velanna was exiled for this, and her clan shows humans no contempt when they meet the Warden-Commander and his eclectic entourage. Lanaya, Marethari, Merrill, and others aren't hostile to humans, either. I'm not certain why you think the Dalish are raised to hate humans.

The Dalish who dislike humans don't seem to be fearful, but rather hostile. So I am running on the assumption that their harsh attitudes are not reflective of them concealing fear.

The Dalish are taught that the humans are the cause of basically everything wrong with them, up to and including the fact that they can die. Its rather similar to templars being educated on the dangers of magic. Mages cause the Darkspawn. Humans caused us to lose immortality. Always be wary of humans. A mage is always an unknown.

While neither set of teachings overtly teaches one to hate humans or mages, they're certainly well geared towards making people despise members of those groups. 

We have no idea whether elven lore is correct about the ancient elves once being immortal, or if contact with humans caused them to lose their immortality. This is a fantasy, but we honestly don't know. It is their lore, however. It's the reason their ancestors are said to have called humans 'shemlen' - i.e. "quick children".

That said, their lore doesn't automatically cause all the Dalish to hate humans, or even their city counterparts. We have a plethora of examples that show this to be true. Lanaya, for example, doesn't hate all humans, despite the abuse (and implied rapes) she suffered at their hands. Merrill didn't hate Hawke for being human, and she made friends with elves in the Alienage.

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Real life ETHNICITY and fantasy races are not the same thing.

Fantasy races are like different species in real life.

A species, IRL, is defined "as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring."

Humans and elves, based on IRL definitions, would be the same species because they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. The distiction between "fantasy" races is based on IRL racist distictions between skin colour races, i.e., physical apperance (though in certain fantasy works it's also magic or somesuch ability, which tracks what other IRL racists believe about certain "races" having certain abilities, like athletics or math skill). 

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves aren't humans or sub-humans; they are, quite literally, a different, sentient species.

Score your cheap potshot because I mispoke. I clarified what I said in the above post. 

Elves are not a separate species. By very definition, a different species cannot interbreed with another and not be sterile. Offspring of elf and humans can still be fertile, so they are not different species. They are different races. 

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

In Exile wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...
 Elves are not a subgroup of humans. Your real world comparison has no merit.

I mispoke. Elves are "humans" in the sense that they're basically (from our external POV) pointy-eared people. Their culture is an expy of IRL culture, and the only difference is the divine fiat that that children between elves and elves come out looking different. 

But the only way to justify that elves are a different "race" is the same reasoning that racists IRL use to say that "whites" are a race, etc. That's the problem with fantasy races as a whole: they embody a racist ideology that as a society we should all move beyond.

Real life ETHNICITY and fantasy races are not the same thing.

Fantasy races are like different species in real life.

In most settings yes. Elves in Dragon Age however, only have pointy ears as a defining traits. Human ethnicities actually have noticeable genetic differences. Hair and eye color for instance. Build for another. However these differences are trivial enough that we're all one species. Elves pretty much only have a trait roughly of the same significance as the different human ethnicities.