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[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish aren't taught to hate humans. Velanna was exiled for this, and her clan shows humans no contempt when they meet the Warden-Commander and his eclectic entourage. Lanaya, Marethari, Merrill, and others aren't hostile to humans, either. I'm not certain why you think the Dalish are raised to hate humans.

The Dalish who dislike humans don't seem to be fearful, but rather hostile. So I am running on the assumption that their harsh attitudes are not reflective of them concealing fear.

The Dalish are taught that the humans are the cause of basically everything wrong with them, up to and including the fact that they can die. Its rather similar to templars being educated on the dangers of magic. Mages cause the Darkspawn. Humans caused us to lose immortality. Always be wary of humans. A mage is always an unknown.

While neither set of teachings overtly teaches one to hate humans or mages, they're certainly well geared towards making people despise members of those groups. 

We have no idea whether elven lore is correct about the ancient elves once being immortal, or if contact with humans caused them to lose their immortality. This is a fantasy, but we honestly don't know. It is their lore, however. It's the reason their ancestors are said to have called humans 'shemlen' - i.e. "quick children".

That said, their lore doesn't automatically cause all the Dalish to hate humans, or even their city counterparts. We have a plethora of examples that show this to be true. Lanaya, for example, doesn't hate all humans, despite the abuse (and implied rapes) she suffered at their hands. Merrill didn't hate Hawke for being human, and she made friends with elves in the Alienage.

Their culture and teachings is geared towards making them dislike humans. I did mention Merril and Marethari as individuals who are not simply reflections of the culture they were born in. I believe that to be a serious flaw in their culture.

[LobselVith8]

MasterScribe wrote...

Real life ETHNICITY and fantasy races are not the same thing.

Fantasy races are like different species in real life.

True. Gaider also addressed that the children of elves and humans are human:

David Gaider wrote...

Without getting into the "why" behind the elves-and-humans-produce-humans thing (which I've talked about before), I will talk about why we didn't deal with it in the game. Primarily it's because we didn't have room. There's a lot of things that exist in the Thedas world that we weren't able to get into in Origins -- part of it is due to limited resources, but part of it is also because to properly address it we'd need to do it justice. We were already introducing the races and their situations, and adding on the complexity of explaining something that does need explanation would... get us what, exactly? You can't play one of the "elf-blooded" (this is what humans with mixed parentage are generally referred to, though I imagine "half-elf" could also be used in a slanderous fashion), and trying to explain the presence of a small number of humans in the alienage (as a for-instance) would have diluted the story we were already going for. Trying to fit everything that exists into the world in one story, after all, isn't really feasible.

I'd like to get into it. I think it's a possibility that has the potential for good drama, and even allowing the player to be elf-blooded might be cool in the future. But like I said, I'd want to do it justice. If your view on it is that you wanted half-elves to be there, and their omission is a fault -- then so be it. I can't really argue with that except to say that we don't think they're required. As some people have mentioned, it's not a widespread thing. Many elves resist having human children for cultural reasons, and many elf-blooded children will live amongst humans as full humans simply because they can get away with it and hiding their heritage means not having to suffer for it -- from humans as well as elves. Some few might be public about their identity, and unwilling to leave their parents behind, but like I said that belongs in another story.

Incidentally, for half-dwarves the situation is a bit different. Dwarves aren't a very fertile race to begin with, and far less so when it comes to mating with humans and elves. In fact, it would be considered rare... rare enough that it's considered more of an oddity than a group of its own. The result is also less stigmatized... primarily because it's also less noticeable. You end up with what would appear to be a tall dwarf or a short human. That calls for a new model -- which we weren't going to get, even if we wanted to address such a rare case. Again, it's certainly something we could do in the future, though such a character would still be considered unusual.

I imagine for those who really like their half-elves that's not a very satisfactory answer, but I hope it offers some light on the why's and wherefore's.

[Statare]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EDIT: I do also think that the Elves are in an impossible situation. They can't ever actually rebuild, because to do that they'd have to be completely isolated from humans.

Now, hold the phone... Elves are no more required to separate themselves from humans than dwarves. Their stories of immortality are legends that are totally unverifiable. There has been more time elapsed since Andraste claimed to be married to God than an elf was allegedly immortal. Both claims should be viewed as just as skeptical.

Even if this was true, there is no proof or evidence that further isolation from humans would return this. What if the cause was not the presence of humans, but something that happened to elves? To the Fade? To something else entirely? What if Arthalan's destruction destroyed some artifact that have elves immortality, something that no amount of isolation from humans would cure (and where the presence of humans would not have actually caused the loss of immortality)?

There are WAY too many factors at play for any elf to base their entire race's continued suffering and hardship on a myth that may not be cured even with further isolation. Gaider has said himself that, despite generations of isolation, the Dalish only live longer than CE's to the same degree as one would expect living outside of filth and poverty and a culture of activity and exercise. So the goal should not be, CANNOT be, "let's live in a cave until we get our immortality back." That is pure insanity.

If the elves rally and try to establish their own nation, it should be done with the full intention of becoming a true nation - open to trade, accepting of other races diplomats and ambassadors and, all in all, being a nation, not trying to hide themselves on some type of nature preserve.

uh huh. If you would continue reading, I talked about human and elf relationships and how they can be amicable, and how that is still problematic (Lanaya barely managed to keep the humans from attacking her tribe, and in the end Allistair says he could no longer support an independent Dalish nation in the Wilds, because of Ferelden nobles). I meant the elves are in an impossible position from the perspective of the Dalish, who take what they believe to be the capital T truth. Imagine that. So, if the Dalish ever do get a homeland, in the back of their mind they will always not be who they could be.

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...

I know my analogy is flawed, but I don't view DA elves and humans as off-shoots of the same species.

I appreciate that. My point is that you should examine why. You'll see that the reasons are similar to why IRL people distinguish between races on skin colour. That is problematic. Not so much of the DA setting, but fantasy in general. There are serious and important questions about what it is that makes a "group". 

[Fast Jimmy]

So, if the Dalish ever do get a homeland, in the back of their mind they will always not be who they could be.

But that's the problem - the Dalish are too focused on living in the past. Is never being "who they could be," whatever that actually means, somehow worse than living as refugees and criminal nomads and looking down their nose at their cousins who live in the city in utter filth, poverty and brutality? That's arrogance. They should be working to building bridges, not walls, becasue they are in the position of disadvantage, not the humans.

Also, in response to the discussion of elves running the risk of being bred out of existence, even if they had their own nation... how many human/elf matings do people think there would be? City Elves, who live (relatively speaking) right alongside humans rarely interbreed. What are the odds, then, of elves and humans having children if they lived in separate countries? Even with trade, diplomacy and even tourism, the stigma is strong. I doubt that this would somehow increase when humans and elves are separated by national borders rather than just crossing from one end of town into the Alienage.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea whether elven lore is correct about the ancient elves once being immortal, or if contact with humans caused them to lose their immortality. This is a fantasy, but we honestly don't know. It is their lore, however. It's the reason their ancestors are said to have called humans 'shemlen' - i.e. "quick children".

That said, their lore doesn't automatically cause all the Dalish to hate humans, or even their city counterparts. We have a plethora of examples that show this to be true. Lanaya, for example, doesn't hate all humans, despite the abuse (and implied rapes) she suffered at their hands. Merrill didn't hate Hawke for being human, and she made friends with elves in the Alienage. 

Their culture and teachings is geared towards making them dislike humans. I did mention Merril and Marethari as individuals who are not simply reflections of the culture they were born in. I believe that to be a serious flaw in their culture. 

History does that. Centuries of slavery by Tevinter, invasion of the Dales for refusing to convert to the Chantry (according to Dalish history), and humans hunting them down, will make some Dalish wary or hateful.

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But that's the problem - the Dalish are too focused on living in the past. Is never being "who they could be," whatever that actually means, somehow worse than living as refugees and criminal nomads and looking down their nose at their cousins who live in the city in utter filth, poverty and brutality? That's arrogance. They should be working to building bridges, not walls, becasue they are in the position of disadvantage, not the humans. 

The Dalish should build bridges with Andrastians who view them as heathens who should convert to the Chantry? With nations that outright outlawed their religion? Yeah, I think I see a serious problem there. I'm also not certain what's flawed in the Dalish maintaining their culture and heritage.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, in response to the discussion of elves running the risk of being bred out of existence, even if they had their own nation... how many human/elf matings do people think there would be? City Elves, who live (relatively speaking) right alongside humans rarely interbreed. What are the odds, then, of elves and humans having children if they lived in separate countries? Even with trade, diplomacy and even tourism, the stigma is strong. I doubt that this would somehow increase when humans and elves are separated by national borders rather than just crossing from one end of town into the Alienage.

I thought the point was that the children of elves and humans are technically human.

[dragondreamer]

In Exile wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...
The Dalish have more in common with an endangered species than a racist group in that respect.   They will literally go extinct as a species if they interbreed with humans too much.  

Skinheads think "white" people will go extict if they "interbreed" with non-"white" people. That's what racists think. But what it means to be an "elf" is up to the elves themselves to define. If every single elf decides tommorw that they want a human parter, that's their right. Just like it's their right if they decide to have S/S relationships exclusive. 

An elf is an elf.  A human is a human.  The difference here is that "white" people intermarrying with "non-white" people won't actually make humans go extinct.  Humanity just changes over time, if at all...while elves are looking at actual extinction like the dinosaurs.  We're talking about a completely different species with a very strange reproductive issue.  As individuals, yes, any elf could decide to live or marry who they wish.  That doesn't mean there aren't real concerns about their future.

Even the City elves hold the same cultural views concerning reproduction, which is why alienage elves have arranged marriages and consider marrying outside their race to be a taboo.  Making more baby elves is considered a cultural duty by BOTH Dalish and City elves.

And that view is in itself vile. But there's a big difference between that and what the Dalish do, because the Dalish views about racial purity aren't just about socially pressuring elves to marry elves. They're about beliefs that humans are actually plague carrying vermin that that the "true" state of the elves is to be immortal mages, inherently superior to all other races. 

They have controversial beliefs that may or may not be true, yes.  But I'm more concerned with what they do rather than what they think.  Again, I'm not interested in condemning them for being rude and snobby.  As far as Thedosian races who consider themselves superior go, they're pretty tame.

True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.  I'm not exactly onboard the Dalish isolationist idea myself, but aside from the immortality beliefs, I can see why they're extremely distrustful of humans.

The Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, becuase they don't have the power to oppress them. But again, I'm onside with the Dalish, except for their beliefs. I always side with the oppressed groups - it's why I'm such a big CE fan. It's the Dalish culture that I'm against. 

You're a big City elf fan even if they share some of the same controversial traits as the Dalish?  They both refer to humans as "shemlen", which is actually less offensive when Dalish use it because it's simply the old elvish word for humans, and the Dalish try to retain what they have of their old language.  They both prefer to keep to themselves, the alienage wall is often considered to keep humans out as much as to keep elves inside.  First time you walk inside the alienage if you're not playing a Tabris, you'll find City elves harassing a human inside the alienage.  And if you play a Tabris you know this isn't unusual.  And both consider it a bad thing to marry outside their species for reproductive reasons.  The Dalish have retained more of their old culture, and City elves are more assimilated into Andrastian human culture, but there's a lot of commonalities that simply come from the fact that they're all elves and face similar issues.

In their history, when they did have power, they weren't known for oppressing anyone then either.  They were known for trying to hide themselves.  And further back in history it's implied some of the elves lived alongside humans, had trade relationships with the dwarves, and even shared their magic knowledge with the Tevinters.  They were snobby and isolationist back then too, but there's nothing to suggest they were interested in oppressing anyone.  Mostly they wanted to be left alone.

[Grieving Natashina]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

I was crashed out, so I'm a little late.  However, happy to help!

http://www.gamerzine...-talking.html/2

Here's the quote:

Are elves still the downtrodden race inDragon Age: Inquisition?

Absolutely, in the Dragon Age world elves are still treated as slaves or scum.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 02:17 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The Dalish should build bridges with Andrastians who view them as heathens who should convert to the Chantry? With nations that outright outlawed their religion? Yeah, I think I see a serious problem there. I'm also not certain what's flawed in the Dalish maintaining their culture and heritage.

As opposed to...? Living the next 500 years roaming around, accomplishing nothing, while their race suffers, just like the 500 years before that?

The definiton of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

[Master Warder Z_]

MasterScribe wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Dalish should build bridges with Andrastians who view them as heathens who should convert to the Chantry? With nations that outright outlawed their religion? Yeah, I think I see a serious problem there. I'm also not certain what's flawed in the Dalish maintaining their culture and heritage.

As opposed to...? Living the next 500 years roaming around, accomplishing nothing, while their race suffers, just like the 500 years before that?

The definiton of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

They tried the whole state-building thing twice (Elvhenan and the Dales). Humans ruined it both times.

A third try would be insane, Vaas. 

You can and i have made a half decent agrument about the Elves ruining their Second Homeland on their own.

.-. What with the War and all.

[Fast Jimmy]

MasterScribe wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Dalish should build bridges with Andrastians who view them as heathens who should convert to the Chantry? With nations that outright outlawed their religion? Yeah, I think I see a serious problem there. I'm also not certain what's flawed in the Dalish maintaining their culture and heritage.

As opposed to...? Living the next 500 years roaming around, accomplishing nothing, while their race suffers, just like the 500 years before that?

The definiton of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

They tried the whole state-building thing twice (Elvhenan and the Dales). Humans ruined it both times.
A third try would be insane, Vaas. 

Except the reason the most recent of those failed was the Dalish racism and isolationism. When your reason for standing by and doing nothing while humans are being slaughtered by a Blight is that you are worried that they will infect you and cause you to lose immortality (that you had made zero progress in regaining), then that is both racist, selfish and antagonistic.

It's not the sole reason why the Chantry launched the Exalted March against the Dales, but it is certainly why the other nations didn't lift a finger when Orlais invaded, before the Chantry have their sanction as a religious war. Replay the same events, except where the Dalish flight hard alongside their human allies against the Blight, instead of cowering behind a myth of immortality, and things may have played out VERY differently. 

[Master Warder Z_]

MasterScribe wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Dalish should build bridges with Andrastians who view them as heathens who should convert to the Chantry? With nations that outright outlawed their religion? Yeah, I think I see a serious problem there. I'm also not certain what's flawed in the Dalish maintaining their culture and heritage.

As opposed to...? Living the next 500 years roaming around, accomplishing nothing, while their race suffers, just like the 500 years before that?

The definiton of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

They tried the whole state-building thing twice (Elvhenan and the Dales). Humans ruined it both times.

A third try would be insane, Vaas. 

You can and i have made a half decent agrument about the Elves ruining their Second Homeland on their own.

.-. What with the War and all.

The Chantry ruined it. 

Right the Chantry forced them to sit out the Blight and turn the peoples of Orlais against them for Generations.

And it was the Chantry who secretly gave them freindly tickle hugs as payment for their sacking of Human Settlements in the Aftermath and the Prelude to the Exalted March.

._. Its pretty straight forward in my eye, as "Oppressive" as the Chantry is about spreading its faith it wasn't the faction ignoring the end of the world and it wasn't the faction razing settlements to the ground in the aftermath of a blight.

[Volus Warlord]

If they all got wiped out, it'd be a huge image boost for them.

Then artists would make them into a legend.

[Master Warder Z_]

Volus Warlord wrote...

If they all got wiped out, it'd be a huge image boost for them.

Then artists would make them into a legend.

True!

It did wonders with the Protheans.

[cjones91]

Starsyn wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

I was crashed out, so I'm a little late.  However, happy to help!

http://www.gamerzine...-talking.html/2

Here's the quote:

Are elves still the downtrodden race inDragon Age: Inquisition?

Absolutely, in the Dragon Age world elves are still treated as slaves or scum.

Thanks,I don't know why my computer does'nt allow me to post links since my laptop does it perfectly fine.

That should nip Vandicus's arguement of elves not being considered slaves or scum in the bud.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently. It was the policies decided by the victors that so completely kill the elven dreams of statehood after the war.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 02:45 .

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

Agreed,what they did was overkill.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

I was crashed out, so I'm a little late.  However, happy to help!

http://www.gamerzine...-talking.html/2

Here's the quote:

Are elves still the downtrodden race inDragon Age: Inquisition?

Absolutely, in the Dragon Age world elves are still treated as slaves or scum.

Thanks,I don't know why my computer does'nt allow me to post links since my laptop does it perfectly fine.

That should nip Vandicus's arguement of elves not being considered slaves or scum in the bud.

I really don't see how considering that within Theodisian Society any one not of Noble Birth, Of at least Moderate Wealth or those lacking Titles are within their societies considered those things.

Elves or Not.

Serfdom isn't a pleasant or a nice thing but it was what allowed Feudalism to linger as long as it did in our world.

.-.

So again i would question how an Elf would have it worse when all they really are is presented with a similar outcome to 80% of the population of the continent.

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

._.

Are you seriously Faulting the Orlaisian for acting as they did in kicking a defeated state into the dust as they did every one else they conquered? There was nothing speical done to the Dales, It was deposed and occupied as territory of the Empire like everywhere else their armies marched.

Except this time it was at Chantry request supposedly.

So Yeah...They sort of did, You don't let Rogue States that are warring against you continue existance, thats a matter of principle that carries over even into our reality. Sure Lets depose the Bath'e Party but leave Saddam in charge so he can reorgnize and rebuild it!

Seriously, had they left the Dales in operation it would have just been a precusor to another conflict.