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[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Except the reason the most recent of those failed was the Dalish racism and isolationism.

That's arguable.

Border skirmishes with [imperial] Orlais sparked tension, unverified Chantry rumor of elven atrocities at Red Crossing sparked more tension, and its said the Chantry sent Templars [armed Orlesians by another name] to the Dales once the elves kicked out Chantry missionaries.

The fall of the Dales could be pinned on Orleisian imperialism.

Personally, I think its a combination of factors.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 janvier 2014 - 02:47 .

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

Agreed,what they did was overkill.

Not According to any Volume on Military Tactics i have ever read.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

I was crashed out, so I'm a little late.  However, happy to help!

http://www.gamerzine...-talking.html/2

Here's the quote:

Are elves still the downtrodden race inDragon Age: Inquisition?

Absolutely, in the Dragon Age world elves are still treated as slaves or scum.

Thanks,I don't know why my computer does'nt allow me to post links since my laptop does it perfectly fine.

That should nip Vandicus's arguement of elves not being considered slaves or scum in the bud.

I really don't see how considering that within Theodisian Society any one not of Noble Birth, Of at least Moderate Wealth or those lacking Titles are within their societies considered those things.

Elves or Not.

Serfdom isn't a pleasant or a nice thing but it was what allowed Feudalism to linger as long as it did in our world.

.-.

So again i would question how an Elf would have it worse when all they really are is presented with a similar outcome to 80% of the population of the continent.

Because a poor human can still get opportunities to improve his/her lot while a poor elf has only two options:become a servant or work with your fellow elves.It's why City Elves have such a tight community because nobody is going to care about them so they have to support each other through thick or thin.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

Agreed,what they did was overkill.

Not According to any Volume on Military Tactics i have ever read.

There are still rules of engagement that exist even in ancient times,for example if the enemy is defeated then you don't strip them of everything and then force the ones who don't submit into a life of constantly moving around.

[Fast Jimmy]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

There was a war. A nation was conquered. They don't just give that back afterwards, like a game of capture the flag. 


The Dalish, as the only elvish nation in Thedas, should have been bending over backwards to stay on good terms with as many other nations as possible, simply because they were the sole hope for a Elvish civilization. Just like today, the Dalish should be bending backwards to cultivating as many friendships with any humans who would listen, because their culture, people and identity is dying. Instead, they act aloof and superior to their city elf counterparts and actively harass any "shem" who comes near their camp, let alone trying to reach out and campaign for being anything other than squatters. 

The Dalish are obviously more than aware that there is elvish racism. Instead of counteringnthatbracism with more racism, they would be wise to see that they would need to get a lot more support for their cause to survive such racism, instead of staking out on their own and failing, miserably. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Except the reason the most recent of those failed was the Dalish racism and isolationism.

That's arguable.

Border skirmishes with [imperial] Orlais sparked tension, unverified Chantry rumor of elven atrocities at Red Crossing sparked more tension, and its said the Chantry sent Templars [armed Orlesians by another name] to the Dales once the elves kicked out Chantry missionaries.

The fall of the Dales could be pinned on Orleisian imperialism.

Personally, I think its a combination of factors.

Yet Orlais was able to engage in these skirmishes without any of the other nations caring or wanting to get involved because everyone hated the Dales for just sitting on the sidelines during the Fourth Blight to protect their precious shot at mythical immortality. The pinnacle of selfishness. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 janvier 2014 - 02:53 .

[cjones91]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

There was a war. A nation was conquered. They don't just give that back afterwards, like a game of capture the flag. 


The Dalish, as the only elvish nation in Thedas, should have been bending over backwards to stay on good terms with as many other nations as possible, simply because they were the sole hope for a Elvish civilization. Just like today, the Dalish should be bending backwards to cultivating as many friendships with any humans who would listen, because their culture, people and identity is dying. Instead, they act aloof and superior to their city elf counterparts and actively harass any "shem" who comes near their camp, let alone trying to reach out and campaign for being anything other than squatters. 

The Dalish are obviously more than aware that there is elvish racism. Instead of counteringnthatbracism with more racism, they would be wise to see that they would need to get a lot more support for their cause to survive such racism, instead of staking out on their own and failing, miserably. 

But here's the problem:why should the Dalish be the first ones to extend a olive branch?Humans hate them so trying to play nice will likely backfire in the long run.It's the same reason why mages should'nt bother trying to be nice to non mages because they will still be hated regardless.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well you can argue back and forth all day about who really started the war between Orlais and the Dales or who was most at fault, but in the end it still was the humans who "ruined it." Nobody forced them to put an end to the elven nation permanently.

Agreed,what they did was overkill.

Not According to any Volume on Military Tactics i have ever read.

There are still rules of engagement that exist even in ancient times,for example if the enemy is defeated then you don't strip them of everything and then force the ones who don't submit into a life of constantly moving around.

Except that you kind of do...It's what Iraq and Iran both did with the Kurds, Its what the Japanese did to the people living IndoChina and it's what the Americans did to the Red Skinned Russians who crossed the Land Bridge a while back.

._.

Orlais is hardly alone in their own history little OURs when it comes to taking territory from a defeated Nation.

Because once you win, you get to dicate terms and if those terms are to make every native give up their homes and live in the Ghetto's like cultural undesirables so be it.

[Grieving Natashina]

cjones91 wrote...
]Because a poor human can still get opportunities to improve his/her lot while a poor elf has only two options:become a servant or work with your fellow elves.It's why City Elves have such a tight community because nobody is going to care about them so they have to support each other through thick or thin.

I'm just waiting for a sign that says Irish elves need not apply on a tavern window, while the owner is complaining about being short staffed.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 02:57 .

[cjones91]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Except the reason the most recent of those failed was the Dalish racism and isolationism.

That's arguable.

Border skirmishes with [imperial] Orlais sparked tension, unverified Chantry rumor of elven atrocities at Red Crossing sparked more tension, and its said the Chantry sent Templars [armed Orlesians by another name] to the Dales once the elves kicked out Chantry missionaries.

The fall of the Dales could be pinned on Orleisian imperialism.

Personally, I think its a combination of factors.

Yet Orlais was able to engage in these skirmishes without any of the other nations caring or wanting to get involved because everyone hated the Dales for just sitting on the sidelines during the Fourth Blight to protect their precious shot at mythical immortality. The pinnacle of selfishness. 

I don't know why people keep condemning the Dalish for that when Duncan had planned on sacrificing Fereldan in order to buy enough time to regroup with the Wardens in Orlais.Even Loghain abandoned Lothering and many other settlements to the Darkspawn so the Dalish aren't the only ones guilty of that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Out of all the wars in Thedas in the last thousand years or so, the elves have gotten one of the worse ends of the stick, even among the history of the vanquished. Their culture and religion were outlawed and their people scattered across the continent in poor ghettos in every nation. Their lands were meanwhile repopulated with Orlesians over the centuries.

Even Ferelden (or any other city or nation state subjugated by The Orlesian Empire really) wasn't so thoroughly dismantled after being conquered by Orlais.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 02:59 .

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

I was crashed out, so I'm a little late.  However, happy to help!

http://www.gamerzine...-talking.html/2

Here's the quote:

Are elves still the downtrodden race inDragon Age: Inquisition?

Absolutely, in the Dragon Age world elves are still treated as slaves or scum.

Thanks,I don't know why my computer does'nt allow me to post links since my laptop does it perfectly fine.

That should nip Vandicus's arguement of elves not being considered slaves or scum in the bud.

I really don't see how considering that within Theodisian Society any one not of Noble Birth, Of at least Moderate Wealth or those lacking Titles are within their societies considered those things.

Elves or Not.

Serfdom isn't a pleasant or a nice thing but it was what allowed Feudalism to linger as long as it did in our world.

.-.

So again i would question how an Elf would have it worse when all they really are is presented with a similar outcome to 80% of the population of the continent.

Because a poor human can still get opportunities to improve his/her lot while a poor elf has only two options:become a servant or work with your fellow elves.It's why City Elves have such a tight community because nobody is going to care about them so they have to support each other through thick or thin.

Yes one in a few thousand may be able to rise above the muck and become a minor noble or aquire enough coin to STOP being a servant or a serf and become a Merchant rather then a dirt farmer like the previous eighteen generations.

._. Seriously just stop, The elves and Humans aren't so horrible divided in this society if you just look past the whole "Elves are oppressed cus their elves!" line. They are are oppressed because like the rest of the majority they aren't on the top of the Feudalistic food chain.

In essence i would agrue that even Surface Dwarves generally have better then both considering most are part of Bank families, Merchant Guids and what have you;  I don't believe i have ever ran into a Dwarf in DA who was not part of a business of some sort, who was struggling or even living in poverty.

Unlike Humans and Elves who you both encounter in droves of similar status, Sure you can say that Humans are given more chances to earn their way out, but in effect that is like saying if you buy two lottery tickets your chances of winning are improved.

Its still like being struck by lightning, a success story in this system is rare. For both Humanity and Elves.

[Peer of the Empire]

dragondreamer wrote...
An elf is an elf.  A human is a human.  The difference here is that "white" people intermarrying with "non-white" people won't actually make humans go extinct.  Humanity just changes over time, if at all...while elves are looking at actual extinction like the dinosaurs.  We're talking about a completely different species with a very strange reproductive issue.  As individuals, yes, any elf could decide to live or marry who they wish.  That doesn't mean there aren't real concerns about their future.

Actually, if all whites intermarry, they will go extinct.  And I'm not even white

White proportion of world population has dropped from 1/3rd of all humanity 100 years ago to less than 10% today, and full intermarriage would eliminate that.  The term white refers primarily to the color and cast of features, and therefore a term unlike Elf.  As InExile says, an offspring of Elf and a human can identify as an Elf and that's that.  But dark skin identifying as white is silly

We can say that whiteness refers just to coloring and facial structure, though the diversity of human appearance would be impoverished if these disappeared.   But we know that Elves are far scrawnier than humans, so already there are other traits besides coloring that matter.

Northwest Europeans, for example, are actually the least ethnocentric of all peoples, which is why they have allowed their countries to be transformed.

Speaking of which,

Vandicus wrote...
In most settings yes. Elves in Dragon Age however, only have pointy ears as a defining traits. Human ethnicities actually have noticeable genetic differences. Hair and eye color for instance. Build for another. However these differences are trivial enough that we're all one species. Elves pretty much only have a trait roughly of the same significance as the different human ethnicities.

We should take care to be certain that important things are not lost, that the character and mental traits necessary for our advanced civilization are transmitted and maintained. 

Going back to the Dalish, they are like the ghetto Jews of 19th century Europe who need to leave their inbreeding, xenophobia, and lost past behind and join the new Enlightenment sweeping over human civilization.  Human civilization is vigorous and strong.  Though the Jews were not quite so pathetic, being rather well off in cities.  One hopes the Elves have the ability to succeed like the Jews.  We'll just need to emancipate them to find out.  Still, there are more than a few free Elves out and about; I think the Dalish just really like to whine

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 19 janvier 2014 - 03:15 .

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Yet Orlais was able to engage in these skirmishes without any of the other nations caring or wanting to get involved because everyone hated the Dales for just sitting on the sidelines during the Fourth Blight to protect their precious shot at mythical immortality. The pinnacle of selfishness. 

If you're saying the elves manufactured their own fall - I disagree because inevitably proximity to Orlais is/was a problem.

Imperial Orlais was a definite enemy - and there is no benefit in a Ferelden or Nevarra (if they even exist at this time, I can't remember), or another city-state attacking the Orlesian Empire, its church, and its church's military arm.

They'd be outmatched, so even if the Dalish had sympathizers, which they may have had, those sympathizers probably wouldn't do anything to help them out of fear of Orlesian power alone, and also the elves are heathens.

Two strikes and no help that way.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 janvier 2014 - 03:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

But here's the problem:why should the Dalish be the first ones to extend a olive branch?Humans hate them so trying to play nice will likely backfire in the long run.It's the same reason why mages should'nt bother trying to be nice to non mages because they will still be hated regardless.

Because the Dalish need the help? That's a silly question - why should a person dying of an illness have to reach out to a doctor for help? Because they are the one looking at their own death, not the doctor. Just like a doctor will still be alive, humans society and government will out survive the arrogant and stupid methods the elves are taking. They are not organized nor motivated to do anything different than they have for dozens upon dozens of generations.

If humans keep acting racist, humans continue to be the dominant race in Thedas. If elves keep acting racist, the elves become a footnote in history. Mages will continue to be born, regardless. Elves will either be bred out or lose so much of their culture, they may as well just be pointy eared humans. POOR pointy eared humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Also we don't know exactly what motivated the elven apathy or passivity during the Second Blight. I'm willing to bet it could've just been the same simple self-interest that most nations display during blights. Albeit a self interest that was unchecked by the Grey Wardens like it usually is for everyone else.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 03:04 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Out of all the wars in Thedas in the last thousand years or so, the elves have gotten one of the worse ends of the stick, even among the history of the vanquished. Their culture and religion were outlawed and their people scattered across the continent in poor ghettos in every nation. Their lands were meanwhile repopulated with Orlesians over the centuries.

Even Ferelden (or any other city or nation state subjugated by The Orlesian Empire really) wasn't so thoroughly dismantled after being conquered by Orlais.

It's Nobility was either forced to flee, Plege Loyality to the Empire or die.

It's political Processes were disrupted and the Bannorn Disbanded, An Orlaisian Lord was appointed Ruler of it.

Erm you really cannot dismantle a Land much more then that.

What with having no local representive to bring greviences and concerns before the assembly of Lords, Merely mouth pieces who voice the ever rising taxes of owning property.

And if you look at the other Nations Orlais won through war this process was repeated and repeated; You can agrue that the force displacement of the Elves sets it a apart and in a way it does but that action aside and you see similarities taken among everything else the Empire conquered.

So Worse end of the stick?

Not really, About the same end of the stick.

[RobRam10]

What the Dalish need is arrows on their chests and iron shackles.

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Also we don't know exactly what motivated the elven apathy or passivity during the Second Blight. I'm willing to bet it could've just been the same simple self-interest that most nations display during blights. Albeit a self interest that was unchecked by the Grey Wardens like it usually is for everyone else.

And i am willing to bet it's just them being selfish and vindictive.

Just because its personal speculation doesn't disprove it after all  

Its all conjecture.

But the World unites, even Begrudingly in a Blight and the fact the Dales set out when even the Imperium was waging war against the Darkspawn speaks ill of their character.

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Yet Orlais was able to engage in these skirmishes without any of the other nations caring or wanting to get involved because everyone hated the Dales for just sitting on the sidelines during the Fourth Blight to protect their precious shot at mythical immortality. The pinnacle of selfishness. 

If you're saying the elves manufactured their own fall - I disagree because inevitably proximity to Orlais is/was a problem.

Imperial Orlais was a definite enemy - and there is no benefit in a Ferelden or Nevarra (if they even exist at this time, I can't remember), or another city-state attacking the Orlesian Empire, its church, and its church's military arm.

They'd be outmatched, so even if the Dalish had sympathizers, which they may have had, those sympathizers probably wouldn't do anything to help them out of fear of Orlesian power.

Orlais could have invaded Antiva and won. Or Ferelden. Or Nevarra. Yet they invaded the Dales. Why? Because they knew no one would care that they did. Wa that partly because they were elves? Sure. But it was also a large part that the other nations still held huge grudges against the Dalish for not lifting a finger against the Darkspawn. 

If the elves had allies in other nations, ambassadors in their court, comrades in other militarists from shared battles, then they could have made their case that Orlais was perverting the Chantry to expand their own empire, scaring these ally nations into uniting in defense. Given that Ferelden was going to be the next casualty in this expansion, it would have been a wise move for he other nations to listen.  

Dalish pride and arrogance is their downfall. Then and now. They have not given any evidence that they would be civil, diplomatic or open to others enough to handle their own nation any better than last attempts. Because there will ALWAYS be another nation scheming to take over your country. It is the nature of politics and power. If you actively alienate those who would be your allies and make no steps to smooth out conflict with those who would be your enemies, calling all of them shems and clutching to some myth of your own race's greatness that can never be recovered, then your nation will fail, every time. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's people weren't rounded up and scattered around the world in a multinational effort by the Chantry. And Ferelden wasn't repopulated by mostly Orlesian demographic shift. That is the major difference that sets it apart from the rest of the peoples subjugated by Orlais. That is the reason why the Dales are gone while Ferelden survived it's foreign occupation.

[Fast Jimmy]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Also we don't know exactly what motivated the elven apathy or passivity during the Second Blight. I'm willing to bet it could've just been the same simple self-interest that most nations display during blights. Albeit a self interest that was unchecked by the Grey Wardens like it usually is for everyone else.

That could be understood in, say, the fifth blight, which lasted months. The second blight lasted decades. It was right on the borders of the Dales. Passivity for a few years is undertandable. For a few decades is deliberate. We're talking about multiple generations of leadership at that point. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 janvier 2014 - 03:15 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's people weren't rounded up and scattered around the world in a multinational effort by the Chantry. And Ferelden wasn't repopulated by mostly Orlesian demographic shift. That is the major difference that sets it apart from the rest of the peoples subjugated by Orlais. That is the reason why the Dales are gone while Ferelden survived it's foreign occupation.

...Huh?

Could have sworn the Dales was repopulated after the war.

._.

So the "Kingdom" is gone sure, But the Province of Orlais? Last i checked it still had a population if a fairly small one of Humans lingering around there.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Also we don't know exactly what motivated the elven apathy or passivity during the Second Blight. I'm willing to bet it could've just been the same simple self-interest that most nations display during blights. Albeit a self interest that was unchecked by the Grey Wardens like it usually is for everyone else.

And i am willing to bet it's just them being selfish and vindictive.

Just because its personal speculation doesn't disprove it after all  

Its all conjecture.

But the World unites, even Begrudingly in a Blight and the fact the Dales set out when even the Imperium was waging war against the Darkspawn speaks ill of their character.

My point was that it's not indicated anywhere that the Dales stood by during the Blight because they were hoping it would allow them to regian their immortality. It could be they just didn't care about what went on beyond their borders, like most do during Blights.

Also the Imperium wasn't exactly given much choice in fighting the darkspawn given that they were swarming all over their territory and nearly sacked Minrathous. The Tevinter Imperium probably shouldn't be held up as a paragon of selflessness in this case anyway, given that they abandoned the whole of the Anderfels to the darkspawn in order to protect central Tevinter.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

I was crashed out, so I'm a little late.  However, happy to help!

http://www.gamerzine...-talking.html/2

Here's the quote:

Are elves still the downtrodden race inDragon Age: Inquisition?

Absolutely, in the Dragon Age world elves are still treated as slaves or scum.

Thanks,I don't know why my computer does'nt allow me to post links since my laptop does it perfectly fine.

That should nip Vandicus's arguement of elves not being considered slaves or scum in the bud.

You insisted they were literally treated as vermin. In case you were not aware, vermin are things such as rodents and small insects. Contrary to what you've been insisting, elves can actually own property and it is generally illegal to kill an elf.