1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

To me it sounds like he just meant their ancestors didn't want to sacrifice elven lives to save foreign humans.

Honestly I think people are massively overstating how much of a role fear of the quickening plays in the lives of Dalish elves. There has never been one time in all the games where an elf expressed a desire to get away from an icky human for fear of losing the immortality that he or she doesn't have. Even if they were immortal once, they aren't now. I think most of them realize that if the humans made them mortal eons ago, they can't make it any worse now just by brief proximity anyway.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:01 .

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Each of those species, minus krogans because of the few females they have, is pretty secure because there are still millions (if not billions of them).

The asari are the most populated and live for 10 times what humans do. Asari colony worlds probably add up to more than the alliance (see e.g. Ilium). 

Besides the better magical potential, there's the recessive racial gene.

You mean, like how skin colour is reccesive? And re: better magical potential, you mean like how a racist could point to genetic studies that show differences in athletic and intellectual ability (again, there are better explanations for these studies that IRL racial distinctions), but the IRL racist can make both arguments. 

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I'd say help wouldn't have needed to beat Orlais. Orlais, even at the height of its empire, could not have fought a war with all of the rest of Thedas.

But what is the rest of Thedas at the time of the Dalish Fall? 

Orlais and Tevinter are the only real military powers. 

Antiva has never truly had a military, and they're on the other side of the map. Ferelden is not a united entity, and Nevarra is a city-state like Kirkwall, and its under Orlesian rule.

I don't see viable help in this situation.

Nor would they want to - even if they could fight off two or three united nations, it would have bogged down their resources to save that large if a war against that many nations... not to mention the blood in the water that would have had a shark like Tevinter circling and more than willing to help even an Elven nation that had managed to unite other nations against the Orlesian Empire, especially if they managed to make some dents.

I just don't think there were two or three nations to fight off. Orlais and Tevinter were the only real powers on the block.

The Alamarri were warring with each other. 

The Anderfels was a nobody.

Nevarra was an Orlesian city-state.

The Free Marches can't help either. 

Antiva has no army, and is on the other side of the map.

And I don't think the Dalish want Tevinter aid - its akin to requesting enslavement. 

And I'd say the vast human settlement is the biggest obstacle - but that simply means the Dalish have to take the high road, both back in the days of the second blight and today. Is it fair that the Dalish should be forced to bite their lips in face of ugly history on both races part and racism and injustice that exist today? Sure, that is pretty sucky for them.

I would like reservations for the Dalish. I don't think another homeland will work. Re-settling now human lands will be bad news.

But generally, if they want to isolate themselves from humans and practice their traditions and religion peacefully  - I don't have a problem with that. 

But it is their best option. Just like no one has any sympathy for someone who whines and complains angrily, even if they have been grievously wronged, no one is going to be losing any sleep for the Dalish if they keep pushing to be removed from human society and openly hostile.

They have plenty right to b*tch IMO because they were screwed over by two human empires.

But, ultimately, their b*tching or not b*tching about it won't change anything for them, I don't believe.

Sympathy is checked at the door for heathens and elves in Thedas it seems.

They have to force/entice the nations of Thedas into a suitable arrangement - through manipulation and cunning or through violence - that's the only way I see anything going their way.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:25 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Yeah, about these Blights....

If the (mostly, if not exclusively) human Tevinter magisters hadn't ripped a hole in the fabric of reality, then Blights wouldn't exist.

Wow, be careful... I don't want to attract cows with all the hay you are dragging in with that straw man. 

I haven't agreed with some of what Jimmy has said, but I think he nailed it here.  

Oh, FYI Master: Tevinter is one of the only places on Thedas were being a elf doesn't matter as long as you're a mage.  The Imperium smashed the first Elven empire after the first Blight.  So there is actually a pretty good chance that the elves were involved somehow.

Besides, that is a very blanket statement to make.  The reason for the Dalish staying out of the Blights is multi-faceted and complex (edit: I'm not excusing them for staying out of the Second Blight, but it seems agreed upon that there were several reasons, for good and for ill.)  The Dalish clans that are racist (not all of them are guys!) also don't talk about the dirty humans causing the first Blight; they more care about the dirty humans causing destruction of their empire afterward.  

Note to self: Never ever get a Dalish drunk.  They'll get maudlin and weep for the good old days, and making sure that they "really love" me, "bro."

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:08 .

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Honestly I think people are massively overstating how much of a role fear of the quickening plays in the lives of Dalish elves. There has never been one time in all the games where an elf expressed a desire to get away from an icky human for fear of losing the immortality that he or she doesn't have. Even if they were immortal once, they aren't now. I think most of them realize that if the humans made them mortal eons ago, they can't make it any worse now just by brief proximity anyway. 

It's the most profoundly racist belief in the setting, and one of the more racists beliefs in fiction. Whether or not the Dalish groups today hold it as sacrosanct, it's a real problem that it exists. 

If there was a large group of people IRL that believed, I don't know, that a group of people of a certain skin colour were inferior in ability, then that would be a problem even if the vast majority saw this as nonsense. But with the Dalish it's more than that - it's a basic facet of their shared culture and religion that humans are disease bearing rats. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:06 .

[In Exile]

Youth4Ever wrote...
I would like reservations for the Dalish. I don't think another homeland will work. Re-settling now human lands will be bad news.

Seeing how that worked IRL, I think the Dalish are better off fighting to the death. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

What if it's true? Can a true belief be racist?

[addiction21]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

To me it sounds like he just meant their ancestors didn't want to sacrifice elven lives to save foreign humans.

Honestly I think people are massively overstating how much of a role fear of the quickening plays in the lives of Dalish elves. There has never been one time in all the games where an elf expressed a desire to get away from an icky human for fear of losing the immortality that he or she doesn't have. Even if they were immortal once, they aren't now. I think most of them realize that if the humans made them mortal eons ago, they can't make it any worse now just by brief proximity anyway.

I think you are underestimating such a indoctrination since birth can have.

Drop the Player Character armor and plot armor and look at it.

The Dalish and their habits are nothing but a expression of getting away from an icky human.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Starsyn wrote...

Oh, FYI Master: Tevinter is one of the only places on Thedas were being a elf doesn't matter as long as your a mage.  The Imperium smashed the first Elven empire after the first Blight.  So there is actually a pretty good chance that the elves were involved somehow.

That's not true. The First Blight began in -395 Ancient (about 1250 years ago) The Fall of Arlathan occured over 500 years before that.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:13 .

[addiction21]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

What if it's true? Can a true belief be racist?

It needs to be shown to be true first.

Not heresay or speculation with no shred of evidence to back it up.

And to those about to link one devs vague response over another devs vague response that neither confirm or deny it. Don't waste your time.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

addiction21 wrote...

I think you are underestimating such a indoctrination since birth can have.

Drop the Player Character armor and plot armor and look at it.

The Dalish and their habits are nothing but a expression of getting away from an icky human.

Then name a single Dalish character that has expressed this once about any human. Not just a Dalish angry about what humans have done to them over the centuries.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:13 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

What if it's true? Can a true belief be racist?

I think the answer is yes, distinguishing between "belief" and "fact". It could be true that Group X, on average, has a greater ability than Group Y, but it would only be racist if Group X then believed that this difference made them more worthy (or Group Y less worthy) of regard or worth. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Oh, FYI Master: Tevinter is one of the only places on Thedas were being a elf doesn't matter as long as your a mage.  The Imperium smashed the first Elven empire after the first Blight.  So there is actually a pretty good chance that the elves were involved somehow.

That's not true. The First Blight began in -395 Ancient (about 1250 years ago) The Fall of Arlathan occured over 500 years before that.

Mea culpa.   I should have double checked my research. 

<cues The More You Know Rainbow>

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Then name a single Dalish character that has expressed this once about any human. Not just a Dalish angry about what humans have done to them over the centuries.

How do you distinguish between these two, seeing as how we can't get into the heads of any Dalish character?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Then name a single Dalish character that has expressed this once about any human. Not just a Dalish angry about what humans have done to them over the centuries.

How do you distinguish between these two, seeing as how we can't get into the heads of any Dalish character?

Has there ever been a Dalish that reacted with revulsion at the mere presence of a human in the same way a human would react to a disease ridden rat? Has there ever been a situation where an elf though a human would infect him with his humanness? I think it would provoke a more viceral reaction of disgust than just bitter resent about their current situation.

[dragondreamer]

In Exile wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...
Again, "white" isn't a species.  And features might become recessive, but they wouldn't go extinct unless everyone with those genes was wiped out or they mutated into something else.

But the hardline racists think that. They think there's something special and unique about their subgrouping - as if "white" means anything to begin with - and have all sorts of insane ways of dealing with it. 

I know, even without you saying it over and over, I'm painfully aware of what racists think.  But you're trying too hard to tack real world racism onto a fantasy situation that doesn't match up the same way.  

There's no need for these kinds of hypotheticals. The Asari in ME are exactly that. But no one in the ME Verse is talking about the Asari as a kind of existential threat to all sapient life in the galaxy and a reason for why all krogan, turians, salarians and humans could go extinct. 

Ahahaha--ahem, yeah, I haven't played anything in the ME series, so I can't really give much input here.  But another factor is whether humanity would face that situation with an declined population.  I imagine a human culture that has reached a space faring stage is better off than a downtrodded people in a pre-industrial type era.

But what makes them "elven". Seriously. Come up with a definition of things that make up an "elf" that a human can share, i.e., excluding things like culture. And excluding things that are, as of right now, completely unsubstantiated racial supremacist theories (i.e., immortality). It comes down to looking different. That's it. 

Well, my point is that aside from culture, an elf-blooded human *isn't* an elf, so I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here.  Well, apparently elves have eyes that glow and can see in the dark like a cat.  They have that reproductive oddity, and apparently they have a magic affinity if the Origins racial stat bonus means anything.  And I recall that they're naturally more athletic than humans...I imagine that's mostly in terms of agility. 

[addiction21]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I think you are underestimating such a indoctrination since birth can have.

Drop the Player Character armor and plot armor and look at it.

The Dalish and their habits are nothing but a expression of getting away from an icky human.

Then name a single Dalish character that has expressed this once about any human. Not just a Dalish angry about what humans have done to them over the centuries.

I don't have to name one. Their culture is about avoiding humans because humans are a plight and cause the Elves to die. Humans are their own blight to be avoided at any cause short extreme circumstances or plot armor.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Their culture is about avoiding humans because it's is dangerous not to. Humans tend to drive them away if they stay too long near human settlments. Even so many clans trade with humans if they can so they obviously don't make a point of avoiding them like a plauge. Even the hostile Dalish tribes often raid human caravans, thereby putting them in contact with them as well.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:25 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I think you are underestimating such a indoctrination since birth can have.

Drop the Player Character armor and plot armor and look at it.

The Dalish and their habits are nothing but a expression of getting away from an icky human.

Then name a single Dalish character that has expressed this once about any human. Not just a Dalish angry about what humans have done to them over the centuries.

I agree with Jedi.  Plus, here is something (and I double checked it this time) that has gotten lost in the thread somehow:

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Elvhenan

Elven lore holds that the first humans arrived from Par Vollen to the north. They are thought to have arrived around 4,500 years after the founding of Arlathan, and nearly 2000 years before the official foundation of the Tevinter Imperium. For some time, humans and elves interacted and traded peaceably. The elves named the humans shemlen[/i], or "quicklings", because, in comparison to the immortal elves, their lives blinked by in an instant. To the elves, humans appeared brash, warlike and impatient. Even worse, the elves proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes. Furthermore, elves who spent time with humans found themselves aging. The ancient elves moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans, for fear that this quickening effect would crumble their civilization.

How much is just myth and how much is true is up for debate.  I could say that about most of the preconceptions about the world of Thedas is up for debate right now.   Still, they aren't just "fleeing from icky humans."  From the sounds of it, they have good reasons to be a little afraid.  Even if you think the "quickling" bit is nonsense, the real threat of disease is a sound reason (among many) to stay on the move.

Also, the Dalish have been proven to live longer than City Elves by a little bit.  Again though, how much of that is better living conditions and how much of that is isolation is also a matter of debate.  I'm not sure either way, so I hope future games and supplimentary material could shed some more light on this.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:28 .

[addiction21]

MasterScribe wrote...

I remember someone said that the Dalish should "bend over backwards" if they want to survive.

Survival is a great incentive.

But what incentive do humans have to parley with the Dalish?

No incentive until the Dalish give them a reason to think otherwise.

I don't belive they need to bend over backwards but they do need understand they are between a rock and hardplace and revaluate the situation.

There is no one that can convince me the clan under Zarathian were living in willfull ignorance that he was the only one out living all of them and they just happened to be the only group beset by werewolves.

[addiction21]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Their culture is about avoiding humans because it's is dangerous not to. Humans tend to drive them away if they stay too long near human settlments. Even so many clans trade with humans if they can so they obviously don't make a point of avoiding them like a plauge. Even the hostile Dalish tribes often raid human caravans, thereby putting them in contact with them as well.

No their culture is that humans are a disease first and foremost and they only deal with them when they need to either thru trade or raiding and murdering them.

Humans being dangerous are because they have made it that way.

They breed the animosity and then claim they are the victims.

[Fast Jimmy]

MasterScribe wrote...

I remember someone said that the Dalish should "bend over backwards" if they want to survive.

Survival is a great incentive.

But what incentive do humans have to parley with the Dalish?

None. 

Hence the Dalish need to bend over backward. 

Those suggesting violence are deluding themselves. The Dalish are not organized, united or powerful enough for large scale war. For them to try and take and defend land is completely out of the question. It needs to be agreed to and sanctioned. And the leaders of such a land/nation need to maintain contact and relations with other surrounding (human) nations, or else conflict is inevitable. 

Those saying that the Dalish were just minding their own business and are hapless victims here are missing the point - diplomacy exists for a reason. There is always going to be another nation eyeing your lands greedily. Looking for a reason to start a war, invade and steal your lands. What keeps that from happening are a delicate balance of standing armies and diplomacy. One without the other is worthless. And the Dalish have shown time and time again they are not interested in any human nation diplomacy. 

Ergo, any nation they are given or conquer is doomed to failure. It's inevitable loss is not going to due to the fact that the world hates elves... it is due to the fact that the Dalish don't want anything to do with humans... which means they are not interested in diplomacy and are begging for things to break down and someone with a motive to invade them. That's the nature of nations. The nations have been human in the past... they could be Dwarven, or Qunari, or even other elves in the future if the City Elves got their own state and the Dalish deemed them "beneath" their notice to have relations with... and still nothing would change. A fight would break out, the backdoor connections to diffuse sub a war would never have been built and, eventually, the Dalish will be without a nation again. 

THAT'S the problem with the Dalish. If they really want to be isolated, then they need to leave Thedas. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I've gone back and forth on whether elves were ever immortal. And if they were immortal I doubt humans caused the Quickening because it lends itself too easily to ethnocentric interpretations of the world (even if I don't believe it's necessarily the most racist thing ever like a lot of people do.)

But I don't think it governs much if any of the elves' behavior today. They have enough other (more relevant) reasons for avoiding humans.

addiction21 wrote...

No their culture is that humans are a
disease first and foremost and they only deal with them when they need
to either thru trade or raiding and murdering them.

Humans being dangerous are because they have made it that way.

They breed the animosity and then claim they are the victims.

No it isn't. If they tried they could likely avoid them alltogether but they don't and when they do come in contact with them none of them act like they've being forcibly expose to plague. To the PC or to anyone else.

The scattered Dalish clans aren't as powerful as any of the human nations. They don't really pose enough of a threat to them to be the ones breeding the animosity. They mostly want to be left alone.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:37 .

[Ultim Asari]

 I would love more Dalish story!