1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I've gone back and forth on whether elves were ever immortal. And if they were immortal I doubt humans caused the Quickening because it lends itself too easily to ethnocentric interpretations of the world (even if I don't believe it's necessarily the most racist thing ever like a lot of people do.)

But I don't think it governs much if any of the elves' behavior today. They have enough other reasons for avoiding humans.

They used blood magic for their immortality just like Zathrian did. Being near humans would not get rid of their nautral immortlaity, that's just horse crap to make humans feel bad.

[Grieving Natashina]

addiction21 wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

I remember someone said that the Dalish should "bend over backwards" if they want to survive.

Survival is a great incentive.

But what incentive do humans have to parley with the Dalish?

No incentive until the Dalish give them a reason to think otherwise.

I don't belive they need to bend over backwards but they do need understand they are between a rock and hardplace and revaluate the situation.

There is no one that can convince me the clan under Zarathian were living in willfull ignorance that he was the only one out living all of them and they just happened to be the only group beset by werewolves.

They had no reason to think that the Keeper had anything to do with the curse.  I don't see why they should.  It's even stated that the elves thought he had found some of the Old Magick and was working towards sharing it with his people.  It's hard to picture anyone making the logical leap to go from "presense of werewolves" to "the werewolf curse is what's allowing our Keeper to keep living." I remember the first time I played through Origins last year and I didn't see that coming.  Zarathian said he was working on trying to share his secrets with his clan.  He lied through his teeth to his people.

Anyone else starting to notice a trend with crazy Keepers (Zarathian, Marethari) and rather unhinged/rebel Firsts (Velanna, Merril?)  The game writers themselves probably need to work on the Dalish public image. 

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:37 .

[addiction21]

Starsyn wrote...

How much is just myth and how much is true is up for debate.  I could say that about most of the preconceptions about the world of Thedas is up for debate right now.   Still, they aren't just "fleeing from icky humans."  From the sounds of it, they have good reasons to be a little afraid.  Even if you think the "quickling" bit is nonsense, the real threat of disease is a sound reason (among many) to stay on the move.

Also, the Dalish have been proven to live longer than City Elves by a little bit.  Again though, how much of that is better living conditions and how much of that is isolation is also a matter of debate.  I'm not sure either way, so I hope future games and supplimentary material could shed some more light on this.

Its not up for a debate because the only elves to live substationaly longer came from other means like magic or curses.

Yes they have damn good reasons to flee. They foster the belief humans are why they lost their immortality and are the cause of every woe. The "disease" nonsense is proven wrong by the cit elves you live in human cities and the lifespans compared to the nomadic life of the Dalish is negligible.

Its not something up for debate until living in squalor somehow becomes better then the nomadic lifestyle that fosters stronger longer life.

Untill I am shown (and not vague responses from devs) that show humans are the cause of Elves losing their immortality (if they even had it in the first plce) I am in the skeptical camp of either even being true.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

They used blood magic for their immortality just like Zathrian did. Being near humans would not get rid of their nautral immortlaity, that's just horse crap to make humans feel bad.

I doubt elven lore was intended to make humans "feel bad", and the description of the behavior of the ancient elves doesn't match up with Zathrian, despite his immortality; the lore reads that the Arlathan elves were very, very different, to the point of spending centuries just getting to know one another in conversations and greetings. It's why humans seemed so brash and quick to them.

[Mr.House]

The fact that the only elves to be said to regain their immortality like the old ways WAS because of magic paints a dirty picture.

[Mr.House]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

They used blood magic for their immortality just like Zathrian did. Being near humans would not get rid of their nautral immortlaity, that's just horse crap to make humans feel bad.

I doubt elven lore was intended to make humans "feel bad", and the description of the behavior of the ancient elves doesn't match up with Zathrian, despite his immortality; the lore reads that the Arlathan elves were very, very different, to the point of spending centuries just getting to know one another in conversations and greetings. It's why humans seemed so brash and quick to them.

Please. Dalish demonise humans to the core, right to the point that they will kill innocent humans who don't even bring harm. Dalish beleive in old crap that can not be proved and their excuse is "Because it's lost." It's a crappy excuse. If they really had natrual immortalty, it would have showen by now instead we only have dalish using blood magic.

[Vandicus]

If the humans did indeed cause elves to lose their alleged immortality, there should be records of hermits or extremely isolated groups of millenia old elves being discovered. It would seem probable that there are elves that were sufficiently isolated still around.

The tales about elven immortality just don't add up imo. How did elves never discover humans beforehand? They'd had hundreds of years to get bored and go sailing to happen upon whatever happens to be the human homeland. Instead, what is according to the story the relatively primitive race is the first to attempt any sort of mass transit. It'd be like a story where a race of super advanced aliens never bothered to look beyond their planet with telescopes or ships, and are brought into the galactic community by a technologically inferior race.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

The fact that the only elves to be said to regain their immortality like the old ways WAS because of magic paints a dirty picture.

Zathrian being immortal still doesn't make him like the Arlathan elves from elven lore. The stories of the ancient elves makes it clear they were very different, and their behavior was simply too different to compare them to modern day elves. Simply being immortal doesn't cut it.

[TK514]

Starsyn wrote...

They had no reason to think that the Keeper had anything to do with the curse.  I don't see why they should.  It's even stated that the elves thought he had found some of the Old Magick and was working towards sharing it with his people.  It's hard to picture anyone making the logical leap to go from "presense of werewolves" to "the werewolf curse is what's allowing our Keeper to keep living." I remember the first time I played through Origins last year and I didn't see that coming.  Zarathian said he was working on trying to share his secrets with his clan.  He lied through his teeth to his people.

Anyone else starting to notice a trend with crazy Keepers (Zarathian, Marethari) and rather unhinged/rebel Firsts (Velanna, Merril?)  The game writers themselves probably need to work on the Dalish public image. 

It's still a bit of a stretch to think no one noticed, in 300 years, that this was the only clan to continually return to werewolf infested woods, and that the werewolves showed up just after the Keeper's kids died.    That's a lot of time to not make any connections at all.  I would agree that there wouldn't be any casual reason ot think werewolves=Keeper's immortality, but surely someone said "Why do we keep coming back here?  There's nothing but bad memories and bloodthirsty man-beasts.  Can't we summer, say, in the Forest of ANYWHERE ELSE?"

Modifié par TK514, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:55 .

[Mr.House]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The fact that the only elves to be said to regain their immortality like the old ways WAS because of magic paints a dirty picture.

Zathrian being immortal still doesn't make him like the Arlathan elves from elven lore. The stories of the ancient elves makes it clear they were very different, and their behavior was simply too different to compare them to modern day elves. Simply being immortal doesn't cut it.

Dude, the game outright says he found it, said by many Dalish npcs including the First. This is why him using bloodmagic is the kicker, it proves he was lying and the nasty implication that elven immortality was nothing but blood magic.

[addiction21]

Starsyn wrote...


They had no reason to think that the Keeper had anything to do with the curse.  I don't see why they should. 

After he loses his family and human village disappears and ALL OF A SUDDEN there are werewolves bothering them is not a hint?

How about him promising something that as generations are born, live, and die he never shows a hint of passing on?

Will full ignorance and a touch of desperation to regain their lost heritage that they themselves don't even know exsidted in the first place.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt elven lore was intended to make humans "feel bad", and the description of the behavior of the ancient elves doesn't match up with Zathrian, despite his immortality; the lore reads that the Arlathan elves were very, very different, to the point of spending centuries just getting to know one another in conversations and greetings. It's why humans seemed so brash and quick to them.

Please. Dalish demonise humans to the core, right to the point that they will kill innocent humans who don't even bring harm.

Just like Duncan in the Dalish Origin, or The Warden during the Fifth Blight, the Warden-Commander in Amaranthine, or Hawke in Act I. Right?

Mr.House wrote...

Dalish beleive in old crap that can not be proved and their excuse is "Because it's lost." It's a crappy excuse. If they really had natrual immortalty, it would have showen by now instead we only have dalish using blood magic. 

Dalish don't use magic that involves spirits, which is why Merrill was shunned for using blood magic. I'm also not getting your vilification of all Elvhen. The Dalish have religious and cultural beliefs, just like humans, dwarves, and everyone else on Thedas.

[Grieving Natashina]

addiction21 wrote...


Its not up for a debate because the only elves to live substationaly longer came from other means like magic or curses.

Source please.  That's true currently, but as far as their claimed "lost immortality?"  We have no idea if it was magic or natural.  No one does currently in Thedas.

Yes they have damn good reasons to flee. They foster the belief humans are why they lost their immortality and are the cause of every woe. The "disease" nonsense is proven wrong by the cit elves you live in human cities and the lifespans compared to the nomadic life of the Dalish is negligible.

You're kidding me, right?  Denerium Alienage had a plague outbreak after their purge.  Many died in the purge and hundreds died from the plague afterward.  Just read the section about the Denerium Alienage on the wiki or better yet, play the game and see for yourself.

Squalor and filthy conditions are taking their toll on the race by living in the cities.

Its not something up for debate until living in squalor somehow becomes better then the nomadic lifestyle that fosters stronger longer life.

Source please.  I have not seen any major plague outbreaks within the Dalish clan.  The werewolf magic curse doesn't count.  Neither does the Dalish origin story (magic mirror, not a disease.)  We have, however, witnessed first hand the aftermath of a horrific plague slamming into an alienage.

Untill I am shown (and not vague responses from devs) that show humans are the cause of Elves losing their immortality (if they even had it in the first plce) I am in the skeptical camp of either even being true.

It's logical to me that the Dalish would be scared of human diseases.  There are plenty of examples in our world of people not having the immunity to certain dieases and largely dying out from them.  Such as the Europeans arriving in the New World, and brought their diseases with them.  Even the travelers that were peaceful with the natives could have accidentally made the natives very sick.

I will agree that I'm skeptical as to whether not humans caused the elves to become mortal.  I also agree that I'm not sure they were immortal to begin with.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:01 .

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zathrian being immortal still doesn't make him like the Arlathan elves from elven lore. The stories of the ancient elves makes it clear they were very different, and their behavior was simply too different to compare them to modern day elves. Simply being immortal doesn't cut it.

Dude, the game outright says he found it, said by many Dalish npcs including the First. This is why him using bloodmagic is the kicker, it proves he was lying and the nasty implication that elven immortality was nothing but blood magic.

No, the game outright has the Lady of the Forest saying that his clan only thinks he has rediscovered the immortality of the People, but that this isn't the case. And I'm not sure how Zathrian proves the behavior of the Arlathan elves, especially given the description of their behavior in Arlathan.

[Mr.House]

Because every Dalish clan we have met is either stupid, racist, is part of a curse, has a powerful bloodmage and can end up getting the whole clan killed because they are idiots. If Bioware wants to give the Dalish a better image, then the next clan needs to be shown in more positive light, not the past light.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

Because every Dalish clan we have met is either stupid, racist, is part of a curse, has a powerful bloodmage and can end up getting the whole clan killed because they are idiots. If Bioware wants to give the Dalish a better image, then the next clan needs to be shown in more positive light, not the past light.

That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zathrian being immortal still doesn't make him like the Arlathan elves from elven lore. The stories of the ancient elves makes it clear they were very different, and their behavior was simply too different to compare them to modern day elves. Simply being immortal doesn't cut it.

Dude, the game outright says he found it, said by many Dalish npcs including the First. This is why him using bloodmagic is the kicker, it proves he was lying and the nasty implication that elven immortality was nothing but blood magic.

No, the game outright has the Lady of the Forest saying that his clan only thinks he has rediscovered the immortality of the People, but that this isn't the case. And I'm not sure how Zathrian proves the behavior of the Arlathan elves, especially given the description of their behavior in Arlathan.

The Lady, as far as the lore says, didn't even exist until Zathrian created it. It'd be somewhat more convincing from an actual spirit, but it seems the Lady was an artificial construction of some sort. There's no reason to think that she actually knows whether or not the past elves even had immortality, let alone how they got it if they did have it.

Modifié par Vandicus, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:07 .

[Banxey]

^ The Lady is a spirit taken from the forest and bound to a wolf. 

TK514 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

They had no reason to think that the Keeper had anything to do with the curse.  I don't see why they should.  It's even stated that the elves thought he had found some of the Old Magick and was working towards sharing it with his people.  It's hard to picture anyone making the logical leap to go from "presense of werewolves" to "the werewolf curse is what's allowing our Keeper to keep living." I remember the first time I played through Origins last year and I didn't see that coming.  Zarathian said he was working on trying to share his secrets with his clan.  He lied through his teeth to his people.

Anyone else starting to notice a trend with crazy Keepers (Zarathian, Marethari) and rather unhinged/rebel Firsts (Velanna, Merril?)  The game writers themselves probably need to work on the Dalish public image. 

It's still a bit of a stretch to think no one noticed, in 300 years, that this was the only clan to continually return to werewolf infested woods, and that the werewolves showed up just after the Keeper's kids died.    That's a lot of time to not make any connections at all.  I would agree that there wouldn't be any casual reason ot think werewolves=Keeper's immortality, but surely someone said "Why do we keep coming back here?  There's nothing but bad memories and bloodthirsty man-beasts.  Can't we summer, say, in the Forest of ANYWHERE ELSE?"

lol.

They only come across other tribes infrequently and the werewolves weren't attacking the clan until close to the time the Warden arrived. So unless the clans had a long history of problems with werewolves, I don't imagine they would be talking to other clans about it often enough to discover that it was a problem only faced by them. 

Modifié par Banxey2, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:10 .

[addiction21]

Starsyn wrote...
snip

I am not talking about a cold or flu.

The Dalish view humans AS THE DISEASE. Going back thru their entire history that has never been confirmed THAT HUMAN contact is the reason they lost their immortality. That HUMANS are the cause they can be sick and die to begin with.

And yes as it stand there is a Elf that lived for a few hundred years due to a curse and that's it. Other then that it is all hearsay and rumors because thru all their efforts the Dalish have only proven that living a active and healthy life leads to a longer life then living in squalor.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, the game outright has the Lady of the Forest saying that his clan only thinks he has rediscovered the immortality of the People, but that this isn't the case. And I'm not sure how Zathrian proves the behavior of the Arlathan elves, especially given the description of their behavior in Arlathan.

The Lady, as far as the lore says, didn't even exist until Zathrian created it. It'd be somewhat more convincing from an actual spirit, but it seems the Lady was an artificial construction of some sort. There's no reason to think that she actually knows whether or not the past elves even had immortality, let alone how they got it if they did have it. 

Zathrian didn't create the spirit; it inhabited the Brecillian Forest before Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son end raped his daughter.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Because every Dalish clan we have met is either stupid, racist, is part of a curse, has a powerful bloodmage and can end up getting the whole clan killed because they are idiots. If Bioware wants to give the Dalish a better image, then the next clan needs to be shown in more positive light, not the past light.

That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

The word you left out is arrogant. As in to arrogant to learn from their mistakes and would rather dive headlong into extinction instead of admitting they might of been wrong.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, the game outright has the Lady of the Forest saying that his clan only thinks he has rediscovered the immortality of the People, but that this isn't the case. And I'm not sure how Zathrian proves the behavior of the Arlathan elves, especially given the description of their behavior in Arlathan.

The Lady, as far as the lore says, didn't even exist until Zathrian created it. It'd be somewhat more convincing from an actual spirit, but it seems the Lady was an artificial construction of some sort. There's no reason to think that she actually knows whether or not the past elves even had immortality, let alone how they got it if they did have it. 

Zathrian didn't create the spirit; it inhabited the Brecillian Forest before Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son end raped his daughter.

THen he cursed them and caused far more pain and suffering because he was a selfish twit. But of course for you its okay for Elves to do as they wish. Predictable hypocrisy

Modifié par addiction21, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:15 .

[Grieving Natashina]

addiction21 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
snip

I am not talking about a cold or flu.

The Dalish view humans AS THE DISEASE. Going back thru their entire history that has never been confirmed THAT HUMAN contact is the reason they lost their immortality. That HUMANS are the cause they can be sick and die to begin with.

That's quite the leap of conclusion based upon my link and something I have never heard a Dalish say in game.  If I'm wrong, then please show me a source.   I'm not talking about the cold or the flu either.  I'm talking more along the lines of smallpox.  The flu doesn't cause dogs to die in the street.  The game proved that living close to humans can spread awful diseases.  We've seen it in game.

We do know that the elves had no record, no stories to pass down about those getting sick and dying until the humans showed up.  Are the humans the sole cause?  It's a possibility, but I highly doubt it.  Still, I can't blame them for staying on the move.  If Orlais is any idea, things might start changing for the elves soon.

And yes as it stand there is a Elf that lived for a few hundred years due to a curse and that's it. Other then that it is all hearsay and rumors because thru all their efforts the Dalish have only proven that living a active and healthy life leads to a longer life then living in squalor.

I agreed here.  Not sure why you're debating that.   

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:25 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, the game outright has the Lady of the Forest saying that his clan only thinks he has rediscovered the immortality of the People, but that this isn't the case. And I'm not sure how Zathrian proves the behavior of the Arlathan elves, especially given the description of their behavior in Arlathan.

The Lady, as far as the lore says, didn't even exist until Zathrian created it. It'd be somewhat more convincing from an actual spirit, but it seems the Lady was an artificial construction of some sort. There's no reason to think that she actually knows whether or not the past elves even had immortality, let alone how they got it if they did have it. 

Zathrian didn't create the spirit; it inhabited the Brecillian Forest before Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son end raped his daughter.

"You are my maker, Zathrian. You gave me form and consciousness where none existed. I have known pain and love, hope and fear, all the joy that is life. Yet of all things, I desire nothing more than an end. I beg you, maker, put an end to me... we beg you... Show mercy."[/list]It wasn't sentient or conscious prior to its creation. There's no evidence that the "forest", which is an ill-defined existence to begin with, is something that can be assembled and put inside a wolf. The first record of it existing is when Zathrian makes it, and even the Lady calls Zathrian its maker. 

Even assuming that the Lady exists as some entity prior to Zathrian's curse, it even claims that it wasn't conscious prior. If it was not conscious prior to Zathrian's curse, it could not have observed or been aware of the original elves. I suspect the Lady's existence has something to do with Zathrian's mindset and thoughts of his daughter when he created the curse, though there's also the question of how a Keeper would know blood magic without directly consulting with a spirit in the first place.