1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Banxey]

Vandicus wrote...

"You are my maker, Zathrian. You gave me form and consciousness where none existed. I have known pain and love, hope and fear, all the joy that is life. Yet of all things, I desire nothing more than an end. I beg you, maker, put an end to me... we beg you... Show mercy."[/list]It wasn't sentient or conscious prior to its creation. There's no evidence that the "forest", which is an ill-defined existence to begin with, is something that can be assembled and put inside a wolf. The first record of it existing is when Zathrian makes it, and even the Lady calls Zathrian its maker. 

Even assuming that the Lady exists as some entity prior to Zathrian's curse, it even claims that it wasn't conscious prior. If it was not conscious prior to Zathrian's curse, it could not have observed or been aware of the original elves. I suspect the Lady's existence has something to do with Zathrian's mindset and thoughts of his daughter when he created the curse, though there's also the question of how a Keeper would know blood magic without directly consulting with a spirit in the first place. 

I think it was a spirit haunting the forest who had gone mad. Like the spirits inside the Sylvans.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

The word you left out is arrogant. As in to arrogant to learn from their mistakes and would rather dive headlong into extinction instead of admitting they might of been wrong.

The Dalish are staying true to their cultural heritage, and adamantly refusing to relinquish their religious beliefs in the Creators. Templars hunt them; their religion is banned in Andrastian kingdoms. I don't think the Dalish should appease the people who think they should give up everything that makes them Dalish. I don't see anything wrong with refusing to capitulate to the Chantry, or refusing to live in squalor and acting in servitude to humans.

[Vandicus]

Banxey2 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

"You are my maker, Zathrian. You gave me form and consciousness where none existed. I have known pain and love, hope and fear, all the joy that is life. Yet of all things, I desire nothing more than an end. I beg you, maker, put an end to me... we beg you... Show mercy."[/list]It wasn't sentient or conscious prior to its creation. There's no evidence that the "forest", which is an ill-defined existence to begin with, is something that can be assembled and put inside a wolf. The first record of it existing is when Zathrian makes it, and even the Lady calls Zathrian its maker. 

Even assuming that the Lady exists as some entity prior to Zathrian's curse, it even claims that it wasn't conscious prior. If it was not conscious prior to Zathrian's curse, it could not have observed or been aware of the original elves. I suspect the Lady's existence has something to do with Zathrian's mindset and thoughts of his daughter when he created the curse, though there's also the question of how a Keeper would know blood magic without directly consulting with a spirit in the first place. 

I think it was a spirit haunting the forest who had gone mad. Like the spirits inside the Sylvans.

That's quite possible. We know Zathrian's curse to be of the blood magic variety, and every source we've ever seen on the subject indicates that blood magic comes from spirits. If the spirit were the forest itself, there should've been repurcussions with its death.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

The word you left out is arrogant. As in to arrogant to learn from their mistakes and would rather dive headlong into extinction instead of admitting they might of been wrong.

The Dalish are staying true to their cultural heritage, and adamantly refusing to relinquish their religious beliefs in the Creators. Templars hunt them; their religion is banned in Andrastian kingdoms. I don't think the Dalish should appease the people who think they should give up everything that makes them Dalish. I don't see anything wrong with refusing to capitulate to the Chantry, or refusing to live in squalor and acting in servitude to humans.

The reason Arlathan and then the Dales fell was because of isolationism. Its one thing to maintain one's worship and culture, its quite another to think that you can ignore the world and it will ignore you.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Because every Dalish clan we have met is either stupid, racist, is part of a curse, has a powerful bloodmage and can end up getting the whole clan killed because they are idiots. If Bioware wants to give the Dalish a better image, then the next clan needs to be shown in more positive light, not the past light.

That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

If you can't see the glaring flaws in the way the Dalish comport themselves in a world that would just as soon seem them disappear forever, then you are looking at them through rose colored glasses.  Unless the Dalish culture was 'be racist asses', then the current Dalish lose nothing of what they are trying to regain by making the attempt at being reasonable neighbors/guests when they enter an area.  Being an unreasonably and aggressively racist douche to everyone who approaches your camp is a good way to convince the rest of the world that you aren't worth the time to get to know, certainly aren't worth the time to assist if you get in trouble, and just maybe would be better dead or run off.  If the past the Dalish cling to so desperately taught them anything, it should have been that they can not take and hold a homeland without allies.  And in both previous cases, they were comprised of actual nations rather than scattered clans that can barely stand one another.

The elves can not survive without allies, and instead they make it a point to make sure everyone they come in contact with sees them as a nuiscance, if not an outright enemy. 

Frankly, if they die out, it will be their own fault.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zathrian didn't create the spirit; it inhabited the Brecillian Forest before Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son end raped his daughter. 

THen he cursed them and caused far more pain and suffering because he was a selfish twit. But of course for you its okay for Elves to do as they wish. Predictable hypocrisy

I think it's okay for the Elvhen not to bend knee to imperialism or attempts at forcing religious conversion. It's not quite the same thing.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:38 .

[Red Panda]

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

[Hellion Rex]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

If that was to happen now, after the elves had already been dealt a bad hand by humanity, it wouldn't be pretty. Too much tension, anger, and bad blood on both sides.

Modifié par eluvianix, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:41 .

[dragondreamer]

"The Lady" aka "Witherfang" was a construct Zathrian made by binding a forest spirit to a wolf. Most spirits have little consciousness, so it isn't surprising it doesn't remember anything before gradually gaining its own mind in the form Zathrian gave it. Yes, it's a form of blood magic. And yes, The Lady outright tells the Warden that the Dalish are mistaken in believing Zathrian has rediscovered the secret of their old immortality.

I don't think that rules out that the ancient elves used blood magic or that it was behind their immortality, but if so, it was probably something different from what Zathrian did.

I actually feel that if blood magic was involved, it was something less deliberate and more inherent to whatever the elves originally were. Kinda like whatever Cole is.

[Vandicus]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

Difficult to say. If we're talking about the Dalish, I'd assume it'd be closer to Tevinter, considering how much sway the mages have in their culture. If we're talking about City elves, it'd probably be a diversity of systems much like the rest of Thedas.

If the population count were reversed as well, then the situation would be very similar to the status quo of the respective nations. If they were not reversed, you'd probably see a rebellion occur very rapidly.

[Hellion Rex]

MasterScribe wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

Did the elves of Arlathan or the Dales ever try to conquer human territory?

Ummm....nope. Only after Imperium sunk them. I think that all they did in response to humanity encroaching upon them is that they closed their borders.

[Grieving Natashina]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

We don't know, and probably never will in this series.

Honestly?  Power can ultimately corrupt, a fact known in our world and is a running theme in the Dragon Age games. If the elves were treating the humans exactly the same as what's going on, then no, it wouldn't be better.  

I don't want them in that position either.  One group having that much power over another isn't good in most cases in Dragon Age.  I'd like to see more racial equality in Thedas, at least in time.

[Vandicus]

dragondreamer wrote...

"The Lady" aka "Witherfang" was a construct Zathrian made by binding a forest spirit to a wolf. Most spirits have little consciousness, so it isn't surprising it doesn't remember anything before gradually gaining its own mind in the form Zathrian gave it. Yes, it's a form of blood magic. And yes, The Lady outright tells the Warden that the Dalish are mistaken in believing Zathrian has rediscovered the secret of their old immortality.

I don't think that rules out that the ancient elves used blood magic or that it was behind their immortality, but if so, it was probably something different from what Zathrian did.

I actually feel that if blood magic was involved, it was something less deliberate and more inherent to whatever the elves originally were. Kinda like whatever Cole is.

The point I was making earlier is how would the spirit know anything prior to its creation if it weren't conscious before? Its also the only spirit entity to claim it did not originate from the Fade. That could just be confusion however, many spirits having spent time in corpses or trees become rather insane.

[Red Panda]

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

Did the elves of Arlathan or the Dales ever try to conquer human territory?

Ummm....nope. Only after Imperium sunk them. I think that all they did in response to humanity encroaching upon them is that they closed their borders.

'twas hypothetical in an alternate history sort of way.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zathrian didn't create the spirit; it inhabited the Brecillian Forest before Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son end raped his daughter. 

"You are my maker, Zathrian. You gave me form and consciousness where none existed. I have known pain and love, hope and fear, all the joy that is life. Yet of all things, I desire nothing more than an end. I beg you, maker, put an end to me... we beg you... Show mercy."[/list]It wasn't sentient or conscious prior to its creation. There's no evidence that the "forest", which is an ill-defined existence to begin with, is something that can be assembled and put inside a wolf. The first record of it existing is when Zathrian makes it, and even the Lady calls Zathrian its maker. 

Even assuming that the Lady exists as some entity prior to Zathrian's curse, it even claims that it wasn't conscious prior. If it was not conscious prior to Zathrian's curse, it could not have observed or been aware of the original elves. I suspect the Lady's existence has something to do with Zathrian's mindset and thoughts of his daughter when he created the curse, though there's also the question of how a Keeper would know blood magic without directly consulting with a spirit in the first place.

There's no evidence spirits are even created by mages. The spirit is mentioned in the narrative as having inhabited the Brecillian Forest. The Grand Oak even mentions it's disappearance centuries ago. It became the Lady of the Forest because of Zathrian.

Also, we have no knowledge of what the spirit knew. What we do know is that she addresses that Zathrian's clan thinks he rediscovered the immortality of the ancient elves; that's it. It's not like everyone was privy to what Zathrian had done centuries ago.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:46 .

[TK514]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

[addiction21]

Starsyn wrote...


I agreed here.  Not sure why you're debating that.   

Late I am tired. These things happen.

[Grieving Natashina]

eluvianix wrote...

Ummm....nope. Only after Imperium sunk them. I think that all they did in response to humanity encroaching upon them is that they closed their borders.

Not even then.  The Dales were granted to them as a reward.

Elven slaves, under Shartan's leadership, were among the most fervent supporters of the prophetess Andraste's uprising against the Tevinter Imperium. The elves joined Andraste in her quest to depose the Tevinter magisters in 1020, [3]upon Andraste's victory. They called their journey to their new homeland the Long Walk. Many perished on the way, some even turned back to the Tevinter, but most continued the walk.[5]

So I don't see any record of the elves trying to conquer human lands.  I do see the Chantry not only making sure that doesn't get out, but then there is this:

In the Dales, the elves created a second elven homeland and began to restore the lost lore and culture of Elvhenan, including the worship of their former gods. They build their first city, ] ("end of the journey", and became isolated from other races. The borders were guarded by an order named the Emerald Knights who were watching for trouble from humans.[6]  and the religion of the Maker spread throughout human nations, the diplomatic relationships between the Dales and surrounding human nations turned cold, as the elves refused to be converted while historians speculate this hostility began when the Dalish refused to aid the humans in the Second Blight. 

Now, both sides are debating as to who started the the violence first:

Humans claim the war with the elves began when a small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory, leading to theChantry ]against the elves when they had captured Montsimmard and besieged Val Royeaux, claiming they had been attacked by the Dales.[The Dalish claim templars invaded the Dales after the elves kicked out Chantry missionaries from their sovereign territory.

A small raiding party doesn't equal trying to conquer human nations.  Since that time, here's what the elves have been doing:

As the Dales fell, the elves were forced to abandon their second homeland, and their culture was torn even further from them. Many elves accepted the terms of their human aggressors, going to live in ] inside human cities and worshipping the Maker. Those elves who resisted became the nomadic Dalish, maintaining the worship of the elven gods and continuing their efforts to recover the lost culture of Elvhenan.

They've been laying low and not going after human lands.  When it comes to the elves role with Andraste, those parts of history are not available to most of Thedas, especially the elves.  Perhaps if it was more common knowledge that the humans and elves worked together with Andraste, opinions from both sides might change.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:54 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zathrian didn't create the spirit; it inhabited the Brecillian Forest before Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son end raped his daughter. 

"You are my maker, Zathrian. You gave me form and consciousness where none existed. I have known pain and love, hope and fear, all the joy that is life. Yet of all things, I desire nothing more than an end. I beg you, maker, put an end to me... we beg you... Show mercy."[/list]It wasn't sentient or conscious prior to its creation. There's no evidence that the "forest", which is an ill-defined existence to begin with, is something that can be assembled and put inside a wolf. The first record of it existing is when Zathrian makes it, and even the Lady calls Zathrian its maker. 

Even assuming that the Lady exists as some entity prior to Zathrian's curse, it even claims that it wasn't conscious prior. If it was not conscious prior to Zathrian's curse, it could not have observed or been aware of the original elves. I suspect the Lady's existence has something to do with Zathrian's mindset and thoughts of his daughter when he created the curse, though there's also the question of how a Keeper would know blood magic without directly consulting with a spirit in the first place.

There's no evidence spirits are even created by mages. The spirit is mentioned in the narrative as having inhabited the Brecillian Forest. The Grand Oak even mentions it's disappearance centuries ago. It became the Lady of the Forest because of Zathrian.

Also, we have no knowledge of what the spirit knew. What we do know is that she addresses that Zathrian's clan thinks he rediscovered the immortality of the ancient elves; that's it. It's not like everyone was privy to what Zathrian had done centuries ago.

I'm not saying that spirits are created by mages. I'm saying that if it is not a Fade spirit, it would appear to be an artificial creation. The Grand Oak, for instance, is a normal Fade spirit. I do not believe that the Lady is actually the forest itself though. If she were, her death, and her initial creation for that matter, should have had more impact. Instead the forest merely gained another magic manipulating denizen much like other Fade spirits. However, the spirit's story, in that it contradicts itself, implies that even if she were a Fade spirit previously, she has the same fragmented "inherited" memories that other Fade spirits have from their time spent watching people dream.

Now I don't think Zathrian's roundabout method is actually how they would have had immortality. Blood magic being the only source of immortality on multiple counts, however, makes blood magic seem the likely source.

[The Hierophant]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

They'd probably genocide or exile the humans to protect their supposed immortality.

[Grieving Natashina]

addiction21 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...


I agreed here.  Not sure why you're debating that.   

Late I am tired. These things happen.

No worries. 

[Vandicus]

Starsyn wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ummm....nope. Only after Imperium sunk them. I think that all they did in response to humanity encroaching upon them is that they closed their borders.

Not even then.  The Dales were granted to them as a reward.

Elven slaves, under ]'s leadership, were among the most fervent supporters of the prophetess [/color]Andraste[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">'s uprising against the Tevinter Imperium. The elves joined Andraste in her quest to depose the Tevinter magisters in 1020 ],[/color][3][color=rgb(213, 212, 212)"> ] upon Andraste's victory. They called their journey to their new homeland the Long Walk. Many perished on the way, some even turned back to the Tevinter, but most continued the walk.[/color][5]

So I don't see any record of the elves trying to conquer human lands.  I do see the Chantry not only making sure that doesn't get out, but then there is this:

In the Dales, the elves created a second elven homeland and began to restore the lost lore and culture of Elvhenan, including the worship of their former gods. They build their first city, ] ("end of the journey"[/color][5][color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">), and became isolated from other races. The borders were guarded by an order named the Emerald Knights who were watching for trouble from humans.[6] ] and the religion of the [/color]Maker spread throughout human nations, the diplomatic relationships between the Dales and surrounding human nations turned cold, as the elves refused to be converted while historians speculate this hostility began when the Dalish refused to aid the humans in the Second Blight. 

Now, both sides are debating as to who started the the violence first:

[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">

Humans claim the war with the elves began when a small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory, leading to theChantry ] against the elves when they had captured Montsimmard and besieged Val Royeaux, claiming they had been attacked by the Dales.[/color][3] The Dalish claim templars invaded the Dales after the elves kicked out Chantry missionaries from their sovereign territory.

A small raiding party doesn't equal trying to conquer human nations.  Since that time, here's what the elves have been doing:

As the Dales fell, the elves were forced to abandon their second homeland, and their culture was torn even further from them. Many elves accepted the terms of their human aggressors, going to live in ] inside human cities and worshipping the Maker. Those elves who resisted became the nomadic Dalish, maintaining the worship of the elven gods and continuing their efforts to recover the lost culture of Elvhenan.[/color]

They've been laying low and not going after human lands.  When it comes to the elves role with Andraste, those parts of history are not available to most of Thedas, especially the elves.  Perhaps if it was more common knowledge that the humans and elves worked together with Andraste, opinions from both sides might change.

You also don't get to Val Royeaux without marching a significant army through much of Orlais either. Considering that it seems the Orlesians didn't even push the elves back to the Dales until after their capital was under siege, it seems doubtful that they had an invasion force in elven lands before the elves had an invasion force in their's.

[Rolling Flame]

TK514 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

No, that wouldn't happen, because the idea of elves lording over humans relies on Tevinter not rising the power and destroying Arlathan. Removing the Imperium from the equation also removes the Darkspawn.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

That's quite possible. We know Zathrian's curse to be of the blood magic variety, and every source we've ever seen on the subject indicates that blood magic comes from spirits. If the spirit were the forest itself, there should've been repurcussions with its death. 

There are actually conflicting stories on the inception of blood magic.

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are staying true to their cultural heritage, and adamantly refusing to relinquish their religious beliefs in the Creators. Templars hunt them; their religion is banned in Andrastian kingdoms. I don't think the Dalish should appease the people who think they should give up everything that makes them Dalish. I don't see anything wrong with refusing to capitulate to the Chantry, or refusing to live in squalor and acting in servitude to humans.

The reason Arlathan and then the Dales fell was because of isolationism. Its one thing to maintain one's worship and culture, its quite another to think that you can ignore the world and it will ignore you. 

Tevinter enslaving the Arlathan elves and destroying their kingdom when the elves closed their borders (according to elven lore) as a result of losing their immortality and falling prey to diseases, and (if Dalish history is accurate) the Chantry invading the sovereign nation of the Dales because they wouldn't convert to the human religion, make the situation a bit more complicated than what you're suggesting.