1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Rolling Flame wrote...

TK514 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

No, that wouldn't happen, because the idea of elves lording over humans relies on Tevinter not rising the power and destroying Arlathan. Removing the Imperium from the equation also removes the Darkspawn.

I think you'd have to remove the Old Gods from the timeline in order to remove the darkspawn. It was Dumat's plan after all, not the plan of the Tevinters. I think it likely that the Old Gods, whoever they are and whatever their motive, would've opened the portal to the Golden City.

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

TK514 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

No, that wouldn't happen, because the idea of elves lording over humans relies on Tevinter not rising the power and destroying Arlathan. Removing the Imperium from the equation also removes the Darkspawn.

I think you'd have to remove the Old Gods from the timeline in order to remove the darkspawn. It was Dumat's plan after all, not the plan of the Tevinters. I think it likely that the Old Gods, whoever they are and whatever their motive, would've opened the portal to the Golden City.

Well the Old Gods clearly couldn't do it, because they needed ancient magisters to open the way for them. Removing the Imperium, the biggest magic empire in Thedas, would have put a massive dent in the "plan of the Old Gods", because they needed mages, BLOOD MAGES, to do it. We don't even know if anyone else could use a lot of magic, other than ceremonial shamans of barbarian tribes outside of Tevinter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We know so little about the entirely of human/elf history that speculation seems pointless. The stories say the elves of Arlathan began to look down on humans as pests in the same way humans look at elves now. But the ruins in the Brecillian Forest seemed to have been inhabited by Elvhen and humans living together. There's 2 millenia of human/elf relations that we literally know nothing about. From a time even before the birth of the Imperium.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:03 .

[Banxey]

I'm sorry if you have already covered this, but is anyone really surprised the Dalish are hostile to humans who come into their camp? Look at the city elves. These are elves who are complying with humans, and are essentially bowing to their human overlords. At my City Elf's wedding Vaughan said to the Chantry sister "If you want to dress up your pets and have tea parties, that's your business, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding."

Admittedly Vaughan is a freak, but the guards at the estate are hardly sympathetic toward the Elven women. Thereafter, every human is astounded to see an Elf in that capacity. I realise that the elves are in desperate need of allies, but honestly if you are constantly faced with people who believe you are less than human, and undeserving of even the most basic respect, you'd hardly be anything but overly cautious toward anyone coming to your camp. Off the top of my head, I can think of four Elven women we know who were raped. Two by "nobles."

I would be more surprised if the elves weren't caustic.I agree they need allies, but you expect them to put a lot of trust in a group of people who have treated them horribly, even when they complied, for hundreds of years.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's quite possible. We know Zathrian's curse to be of the blood magic variety, and every source we've ever seen on the subject indicates that blood magic comes from spirits. If the spirit were the forest itself, there should've been repurcussions with its death. 

There are actually conflicting stories on the inception of blood magic.

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are staying true to their cultural heritage, and adamantly refusing to relinquish their religious beliefs in the Creators. Templars hunt them; their religion is banned in Andrastian kingdoms. I don't think the Dalish should appease the people who think they should give up everything that makes them Dalish. I don't see anything wrong with refusing to capitulate to the Chantry, or refusing to live in squalor and acting in servitude to humans.

The reason Arlathan and then the Dales fell was because of isolationism. Its one thing to maintain one's worship and culture, its quite another to think that you can ignore the world and it will ignore you. 

Tevinter enslaving the Arlathan elves and destroying their kingdom when the elves closed their borders (according to elven lore) as a result of losing their immortality and falling prey to diseases, and (if Dalish history is accurate) the Chantry invading the sovereign nation of the Dales because they wouldn't convert to the human religion, make the situation a bit more complicated than what you're suggesting.

Who let Tevinter get that powerful? The Tevinter are pretty blatantly a dangerous expanding entity that practices very ruthless traditions involving conquest and subjugation of non-mages.

The Chantry didn't get involved until after the elves had reached Val Royeaux. You might claim that Orlais started the conflict(which we don't even know for sure), but it certainly wasn't the Chantry that started the war. In either case, the elves had removed themselves from the world, stuck their fingers in their ears, and said "lalalalala" while the balance of power in the world shifted around them. They put no effort forth to ensure their sovereignty. As I mentioned previously, ignoring the world, doesn't mean it will ignore you.

The attitude of "let's just let them have Poland" is directly linked to their fall imo.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

TK514 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

No, that wouldn't happen, because the idea of elves lording over humans relies on Tevinter not rising the power and destroying Arlathan. Removing the Imperium from the equation also removes the Darkspawn.

I think you'd have to remove the Old Gods from the timeline in order to remove the darkspawn. It was Dumat's plan after all, not the plan of the Tevinters. I think it likely that the Old Gods, whoever they are and whatever their motive, would've opened the portal to the Golden City.

Well the Old Gods clearly couldn't do it, because they needed ancient magisters to open the way for them. Removing the Imperium, the biggest magic empire in Thedas, would have put a massive dent in the "plan of the Old Gods", because they needed mages, BLOOD MAGES, to do it. We don't even know if anyone else could use a lot of magic, other than ceremonial shamans of barbarian tribes outside of Tevinter.

If elves ruled the world they'd be far more widespread. Elven culture and attitudes varies heavily from place to place as we've seen so far. Without enforced homogeneity, I think the Old Gods would've found a way to convince a small handful of elven mages that they could rule Thedas(unless we are to believe that 100% of the population is free from ambition). From there the scenario heads towards an elven equivalent to the Tevinter Imperium.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

Did the elves of Arlathan or the Dales ever try to conquer human territory?

Ummm....nope. Only after Imperium sunk them. I think that all they did in response to humanity encroaching upon them is that they closed their borders.

So we are just pretending the Dalish invasion of Orlais never happened?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

Did the elves of Arlathan or the Dales ever try to conquer human territory?

Ummm....nope. Only after Imperium sunk them. I think that all they did in response to humanity encroaching upon them is that they closed their borders.

So we are just pretending the Dalish invasion of Orlais never happened?

I'm talking about Arlathan dude, I didn't even mention the Dales, because both sides had a part in that.

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

We know so little about the entirely of human/elf history that speculation seems pointless. The stories say the elves of Arlathan began to look down on humans as pests in the same way humans look at elves now. But the ruins in the Brecillian Forest seemed to have been inhabited by Elvhen and humans living together.

The elves of Arlathan might have viewed humans as detrimental to their society, but they didn't resort to structural violence like the humans have done to elves throughout history since that time. The elves of Arlathan just closed their borders and the humans went all gung-ho after that.

Specifically the Tevinter magisters. You might not have noticed, but it was a human-based rebellion that overthrew the Tevinter Imperium. We could identify all elves by their worst members, but that's idiotic. However, we seem to be insistent on identifying all of humanity by the archons, Vaughn, and the Orlesian nobility.

The rulers, which is to say all powerful slave-masters, of Tevinter, decided to go to war against Arlathan. Not the farmers and merchants.

[Grieving Natashina]

Delete please.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:11 .

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

TK514 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

No, that wouldn't happen, because the idea of elves lording over humans relies on Tevinter not rising the power and destroying Arlathan. Removing the Imperium from the equation also removes the Darkspawn.

I think you'd have to remove the Old Gods from the timeline in order to remove the darkspawn. It was Dumat's plan after all, not the plan of the Tevinters. I think it likely that the Old Gods, whoever they are and whatever their motive, would've opened the portal to the Golden City.

Well the Old Gods clearly couldn't do it, because they needed ancient magisters to open the way for them. Removing the Imperium, the biggest magic empire in Thedas, would have put a massive dent in the "plan of the Old Gods", because they needed mages, BLOOD MAGES, to do it. We don't even know if anyone else could use a lot of magic, other than ceremonial shamans of barbarian tribes outside of Tevinter.

If elves ruled the world they'd be far more widespread. Elven culture and attitudes varies heavily from place to place as we've seen so far. Without enforced homogeneity, I think the Old Gods would've found a way to convince a small handful of elven mages that they could rule Thedas(unless we are to believe that 100% of the population is free from ambition). From there the scenario heads towards an elven equivalent to the Tevinter Imperium.

They already kind of were an elven TE, because if Merrill is to be believed, all the elves used to have the Gift. And while some Dalish legends are a little hokey, this one is pretty believable. And how do you even know that Elven culture differed greatly while Arlathan ruled.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

TK514 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Let's look at it from another way. What would the world be like if Elves ran it? Would it be better or worse assuming that humans and elves switched roles?

The world would end with the next Blight, because the Elves would stick their heads in the ground until all the other races were overrun, then die alone against the unstoppable horde.

Which is what would have happened in the Second Blight if Orlais hadn't stepped up.

No, that wouldn't happen, because the idea of elves lording over humans relies on Tevinter not rising the power and destroying Arlathan. Removing the Imperium from the equation also removes the Darkspawn.

I think you'd have to remove the Old Gods from the timeline in order to remove the darkspawn. It was Dumat's plan after all, not the plan of the Tevinters. I think it likely that the Old Gods, whoever they are and whatever their motive, would've opened the portal to the Golden City.

Well the Old Gods clearly couldn't do it, because they needed ancient magisters to open the way for them. Removing the Imperium, the biggest magic empire in Thedas, would have put a massive dent in the "plan of the Old Gods", because they needed mages, BLOOD MAGES, to do it. We don't even know if anyone else could use a lot of magic, other than ceremonial shamans of barbarian tribes outside of Tevinter.

The Elves obviously could.  With no Tevinter, the Old Gods would have simply turned their attentions to Arlathan, and we already know for a fact that there are elves willing to turn to blood magic and make deals with demons and spirits to get the power they think they need to achieve their goals.  The Old Gods would have just tailored their message to the elves instead of the humans.  Instead of saying "Hey, this is where the Maker lives, go visit Him and gain ultimate power", they could have said "Hey, this is where your gods are locked up, go visit them and let them out again".  In the final equation, the one thing the Old Gods don't seem to be short of is time, so playing the long game and working their manipulations over the ages would be no obstacle.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...


They already kind of were an elven TE, because if Merrill is to be believed, all the elves used to have the Gift. And while some Dalish legends are a little hokey, this one is pretty believable. And how do you even know that Elven culture differed greatly while Arlathan ruled.

I'm talking about a scenario where they rule all of Thedas. For that to occur, they'd need to spread out all over Thedas, not just in Arlathan. I'm not saying that elven culture was less homogeneous during their isolationist state(if anything that was probably their most homogeneous state), I'm saying if they were spread out their culture would've probably been far more diverse, and more susceptible to interference by the Old Gods.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

According to the Dalish stories, the ancient elven civilization was spread out across all of Thedas. And Hahren Paivel says "We were as varied as the Shemlen, though fewer in number."

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...
The Elves obviously could.  With no Tevinter, the Old Gods would have simply turned their attentions to Arlathan, and we already know for a fact that there are elves willing to turn to blood magic and make deals with demons and spirits to get the power they think they need to achieve their goals.  The Old Gods would have just tailored their message to the elves instead of the humans.  Instead of saying "Hey, this is where the Maker lives, go visit Him and gain ultimate power", they could have said "Hey, this is where your gods are locked up, go visit them and let them out again".  In the final equation, the one thing the Old Gods don't seem to be short of is time, so playing the long game and working their manipulations over the ages would be no obstacle.

We have no knowledge about Arlathan elves and blood magic, at all, so that part of your theory holds no merit.

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

According to the Dalish stories, the ancient elven civilization was spread out across all of Thedas. And Hahren Paivel says "We were as varied as the Shemlen, though fewer in number."

Well there you go. Without the rigidity of modern Dalish culture, which frowns almost as heavily on blood magic as the Chantry, it'd seem that the Old Gods would at least be able to persuade some of them to turn to blood magic.

[Hellion Rex]

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

The Elves obviously could.  With no Tevinter, the Old Gods would have simply turned their attentions to Arlathan, and we already know for a fact that there are elves willing to turn to blood magic and make deals with demons and spirits to get the power they think they need to achieve their goals.  The Old Gods would have just tailored their message to the elves instead of the humans.  Instead of saying "Hey, this is where the Maker lives, go visit Him and gain ultimate power", they could have said "Hey, this is where your gods are locked up, go visit them and let them out again".  In the final equation, the one thing the Old Gods don't seem to be short of is time, so playing the long game and working their manipulations over the ages would be no obstacle.

Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

The Elves obviously could.  With no Tevinter, the Old Gods would have simply turned their attentions to Arlathan, and we already know for a fact that there are elves willing to turn to blood magic and make deals with demons and spirits to get the power they think they need to achieve their goals.  The Old Gods would have just tailored their message to the elves instead of the humans.  Instead of saying "Hey, this is where the Maker lives, go visit Him and gain ultimate power", they could have said "Hey, this is where your gods are locked up, go visit them and let them out again".  In the final equation, the one thing the Old Gods don't seem to be short of is time, so playing the long game and working their manipulations over the ages would be no obstacle.

Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

Perhaps the Old Gods were the elven gods or perhaps the Old Gods came to Thedas only at a certain point in time.

Why the elves have never heard of the Old Gods until the Tevinter Imperium pops up is something of a mystery. The implication is that the Old Gods are using a pseudonym, are not native to Thedas, or only came into being some time after the arrival of the humans.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...


Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

According to the Dalish stories, the ancient elven civilization was spread out across all of Thedas. And Hahren Paivel says "We were as varied as the Shemlen, though fewer in number."

Well there you go. Without the rigidity of modern Dalish culture, which frowns almost as heavily on blood magic as the Chantry, it'd seem that the Old Gods would at least be able to persuade some of them to turn to blood magic.

And yet the First Blight didn't occur until after the human-dominated Tevinter rose to power....

Because the elves had no contact with the Old Gods who were busy converting the magisters. The elves hadn't even heard of the Old Gods until the Tevinter Imperium, so there's no reason to believe that they are somehow less susceptible to their wiles. Its actually pretty simple to convince any power-hungry mage to use blood magic. Blood magic=more power=ability to rule over others. That's why the Tevinter Imperium came back for round two after they fell.