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[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

I certainly don't judge Arlathan elves by their Dalish descendants, because everything points to them being a hell of a lot smarter about magic in general. Also, we don't know if the legends as the Dalish remember are exactly how they were within Arlathan's culture.
And sorry, I had dropped the hypothetical scenario thing. I'm back in reality.

[TK514]

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...


Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

Merrill and Marethari aren't (immortal) elves from the time of Arlathan.

So the Elves are somehow less gullible and less individualistic than other sentient beings and their gods.  For reasons.

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...

Because the elves had no contact with the Old Gods who were busy converting the magisters. The elves hadn't even heard of the Old Gods until the Tevinter Imperium, so there's no reason to believe that they are somehow less susceptible to their wiles. Its actually pretty simple to convince any power-hungry mage to use blood magic. Blood magic=more power=ability to rule over others. That's why the Tevinter Imperium came back for round two after they fell.

How do you know that though? We have no info on that at all.

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...


Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

Merrill and Marethari aren't (immortal) elves from the time of Arlathan.

Well then we're just wildly speculating. Its impossible for the immortal elves to rule the world since they have to sit in their basements to avoid losing their immortality. Are they wiser than normal people? The historical record shows that they are dumber than your average human ruler, who at least has the good sense to realize that others will seek to oust them from power. 

To me, the Old Gods and beings like Flemeth are probably well able to manipulate people. Even if humans were non-existant on Thedas, assuming the Old Gods are still there, I think they would've gotten operation Blight going.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...


Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

Merrill and Marethari aren't (immortal) elves from the time of Arlathan.

So the Elves are somehow less gullible and less individualistic than other sentient beings and their gods.  For reasons.

Considering the Old Gods chose to influence a fledgeling TE instead of an enormous empire, that should point to a tad more fortitude than you give them credit for.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Because the elves had no contact with the Old Gods who were busy converting the magisters. The elves hadn't even heard of the Old Gods until the Tevinter Imperium, so there's no reason to believe that they are somehow less susceptible to their wiles. Its actually pretty simple to convince any power-hungry mage to use blood magic. Blood magic=more power=ability to rule over others. That's why the Tevinter Imperium came back for round two after they fell.

How do you know that though? We have no info on that at all.

The elves never mention it in their lore and mythos. The elves never try to stop what are apparently omnicidal deities from creating a powerful empire. Either the elves of old had a severe lack of survival instinct, such that they'd ignore Satan himself lining up tanks at their border, or they didn't know of the Old Gods. Or at least they didn't know enough about them to be afraid of them.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...


Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

Merrill and Marethari aren't (immortal) elves from the time of Arlathan.

So the Elves are somehow less gullible and less individualistic than other sentient beings and their gods.  For reasons.

Considering the Old Gods chose to influence a fledgeling TE instead of an enormous empire, that should point to a tad more fortitude than you give them credit for.

Humans were allegedly more numerous at their time of arrival. Plus the Tevinter Imperium arises well after the elven empire has collapsed, because they all moved to Arlathan. By the time of the Old Gods' rise to power, the elves are already shut-ins.

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Because the elves had no contact with the Old Gods who were busy converting the magisters. The elves hadn't even heard of the Old Gods until the Tevinter Imperium, so there's no reason to believe that they are somehow less susceptible to their wiles. Its actually pretty simple to convince any power-hungry mage to use blood magic. Blood magic=more power=ability to rule over others. That's why the Tevinter Imperium came back for round two after they fell.

How do you know that though? We have no info on that at all.

The elves never mention it in their lore and mythos. The elves never try to stop what are apparently omnicidal deities from creating a powerful empire. Either the elves of old had a severe lack of survival instinct, such that they'd ignore Satan himself lining up tanks at their border, or they didn't know of the Old Gods. Or at least they didn't know enough about them to be afraid of them.

How much of their lore do we have access to? We don't know sh*t. And the way the Dalish always talk about how much they have lost, they apparently know barely anything either.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Because the elves had no contact with the Old Gods who were busy converting the magisters. The elves hadn't even heard of the Old Gods until the Tevinter Imperium, so there's no reason to believe that they are somehow less susceptible to their wiles. Its actually pretty simple to convince any power-hungry mage to use blood magic. Blood magic=more power=ability to rule over others. That's why the Tevinter Imperium came back for round two after they fell.

How do you know that though? We have no info on that at all.

The elves never mention it in their lore and mythos. The elves never try to stop what are apparently omnicidal deities from creating a powerful empire. Either the elves of old had a severe lack of survival instinct, such that they'd ignore Satan himself lining up tanks at their border, or they didn't know of the Old Gods. Or at least they didn't know enough about them to be afraid of them.

How much of their lore do we have access to? We don't know sh*t. And the way the Dalish always talk about how much they have lost, they apparently know barely anything either.

We know the elves never tried to stop the omnicidal deities from building their empire. Back to the, they're either completely unafraid of dying, or they don't know that those are omnicidal deities next door.

Come to think of it, its plausible the Old Gods removed elven immortality, then had false rumors spread that it was the presence of humans, in order to get the elves to hide away. 

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

Considering the Old Gods chose to influence a fledgeling TE instead of an enormous empire, that should point to a tad more fortitude than you give them credit for.

That's not what it points to at all.  It says nothing about the elves, one way or another.  There's a huge difference between "It can't be done" and "An easier way just became available".  It's not impossible to insert a new religion into a previously established society, or even new gods into a previously established pantheon, but it's a lot easier to do so into one that is just forming.  Humans were just a better target at the time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Are there any documented uses of blood magic by the elves of Arlathan?

And why didn't the Old Gods do this to the elves before Tevinter rose? The elves had been around for millenia....

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves could see through a ruse like that in a heartbeat. Anyways, by the time the Golden City is breached, Arlathan had already been sunk.

What makes you assume the elves are immune to manipulations?  Their gods apparently weren't.  Merrill and Marethari certainly weren't.

Are aren't we talking about a hypothetical where Arlathan wasn't sunk and Elves Rule the World?

I certainly don't judge Arlathan elves by their Dalish descendants, because everything points to them being a hell of a lot smarter about magic in general. Also, we don't know if the legends as the Dalish remember are exactly how they were within Arlathan's culture.
And sorry, I had dropped the hypothetical scenario thing. I'm back in reality.

Based on what? If anything they seem to be decidedly less versed in magic and its applications, since they lost handily to the Tevinters.

[The Hierophant]

eluvianix wrote...

Considering the Old Gods chose to influence a fledgeling TE instead of an enormous empire, that should point to a tad more fortitude than you give them credit for.

This would be lame as it would play up on the Peta, Greenpeace, woobie idealist, faux self hating cynicist endorsed view of humanity being the unnaturally destructive, aggressive all consuming oaf race, all in comparison to the immaculate, "my **** don't stink" wise vegan elf that's been propagated in fantasy for decades.

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...
Come to think of it, its plausible the Old Gods removed elven immortality, then had false rumors spread that it was the presence of humans, in order to get the elves to hide away. 

Ok, you have now officially lost me entirely.

[TK514]

MasterScribe wrote...

It just seems odd that 7 gods looking to escape their prison cell would just ignore a millenia-old, continent-spanning empire full of powerful mages.

The implication is that the Tevinter magisters were either crazy and the Old Gods don't exist or the ancient elves were immune to their call (maybe that supposed immortality came with other goodies). Either way, the humans ruined it for everyone.

I don't think there's any doubt at all that the Tevinter Magisters that breached the Fade were insane.  Sane people don't use up two thirds of their Empire's most precious resource and butcher thousands on an unverifiable gambit.  But again, that doesn't say anything about the elves.  Only that the TE was a better target at the time.

Modifié par TK514, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:43 .

[TK514]

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

It just seems odd that 7 gods looking to escape their prison cell would just ignore a millenia-old, continent-spanning empire full of powerful mages.

The implication is that the Tevinter magisters were either crazy and the Old Gods don't exist or the ancient elves were immune to their call (maybe that supposed immortality came with other goodies). Either way, the humans ruined it for everyone.

I don't think there's any doubt at all that the Tevinter Magisters that breached the Fade were insane.  Sane people don't use up two thirds of their Empire's most precious resource and butcher thousands on an unverifiable gambit.  But again, that doesn't say anything about the elves.  Only that the TE was a better target at the time.

Yep, a bunch of crazy humans ruined it for everyone.

And your point? 

Since we're discussing a scenario where the human empire doesn't exist, what the humans did and didn't do is irrelevant.  In actual continuity, the Old Gods had two choices, and went with the easier one.  In the theoretical continuity, the Old Gods would have had to use what was available.  Them deciding to use humans in no way infers they were incapable of using elves.  Only that they didn't.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually it's funny you mention that because it's actually a theory of mine as well. If there ever was a Quickening it's possible the Old Gods were secretly responsible for it. That far back in history exact dates become rough estimates on the timeline, but I noticed the reference on the World of Thedas timeline for when the elves supposedly noticed the Quickening is right before the Old Gods supposedly began to whisper to humanity.

The Old Gods and why they appeared is one of the mysteries of the world. It's still quite ambiguous. There could be many possible explanations from what we know.

It's also possible the Elvhenan did know of the Old Gods and the lore has long since been forgotten. It's actually a little mind boggling when you think about how much Thedosian history may have been lost. The era we know well is only a small fraction of it.

[Darkclown1000]

Either way the old gods would've found a way to mess with thedas.
It would be interesting to speak with one of the old gods in the next game.
Them being sentient, long lived and capable of thought means they'd have quite a bit to say about blights, elves, magisters, qunari etc...

[TK514]

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

And your point? 

Since we're discussing a scenario where the human empire doesn't exist, what the humans did and didn't do is irrelevant.  In actual continuity, the Old Gods had two choices, and went with the easier one.  In the theoretical continuity, the Old Gods would have had to use what was available.  Them deciding to use humans in no way infers they were incapable of using elves.  Only that they didn't.

Which naturally leads one to wonder WHY they didn't, despite the apparent longevity of the pre-human contact elven civilization. It seems that the ancient elves were just too powerful to be manipulated by the Old Gods (which suggests that parts of Dalish lore could be true).

Actually, we have almost no information, and no reliable information, at all about pre-human Arlathan.  The same can be said about the Old Gods.  The fact that we only start hearing about the Old Gods, as they are currently understood, during the Tevinter Imperium is meaningless when discussing Arlathan, and if the Elves would have been succeptible to their manipulations or not.  There are countless reasons why the Old Gods didn't manipulate the Arlathan elves into doing what they wanted, starting with "They were manipulating the ancient elves, it was just taking longer due to the elven tendency to be slower to act"  If it takes you a decade to get through the formalities of 'hello', how long do you think major societal changes would take?  Or perhaps the Old Gods had different plans then.  Or maybe the Old Gods are younger than Arlathan in their current form.  It's entirely possible that they didn't try to influence the elves because they hadn't arrived in Thedas yet.  We have no way of knowing until the writers decide to tell us.

The bottom line is, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that elves, Ancient or Modern, are or were somehow immune to the Old Gods manipulations and machinations.  The only thing we can say with any certainty is that humans were a better target, which is meaningless in a theoretical world where humans never came to power.

[Rolling Flame]

MasterScribe wrote...

TK514 wrote...

And your point? 

Since we're discussing a scenario where the human empire doesn't exist, what the humans did and didn't do is irrelevant.  In actual continuity, the Old Gods had two choices, and went with the easier one.  In the theoretical continuity, the Old Gods would have had to use what was available.  Them deciding to use humans in no way infers they were incapable of using elves.  Only that they didn't.

Which naturally leads one to wonder WHY they didn't, despite the apparent longevity of the pre-human contact elven civilization. It seems that the ancient elves were just too powerful to be manipulated by the Old Gods (which suggests that parts of Dalish lore could be true).

It's also a possibility that the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are one and the same. 

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
It makes sense. Elven lore says the Creators were at odds with the Forgotten Ones, and the elves were enslaved by the Tevinter Magisters that worshipped the Old Gods. Elven lore also says the trickster Fen'Harel tricked and locked both the Creators and Forgotten Ones away, the latter into a dark abyss. The human faith says their (new-fangled) Maker locked the "false gods" away. No word on the Creators, but we know of the Old Gods deep beneath the earth.

We also have hints in DA:O that the dwarves have the capability of "locking" things away, so having the old gods locked away in forgotten Deep Roads fits with the known capabilities of the dwarves and the metaphor of the "abyss". 

It's also worth noting that the Maker is not "new-fangled". The cult of the Maker was apparently around and old when the Imperium was preparing its jaunt in the Fade. So whatever Andraste co-opted apparently pre-dated the Blights. The modern Andrastian faith was written much, much later so whatever this cult originally was might be entirely lost to the mist of time. 

It'd be interesting to see what other groups of humans worshiped. Did the Alamarri, for example, have their own gods? The Rivani?