1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Grieving Natashina]

In Exile wrote...


It'd be interesting to see what other groups of humans worshiped. Did the Alamarri, for example, have their own gods? The Rivani? 

I can answer the question about the Rivani and it's yes:

Unlike the majority of peoples in Thedas, the Rivaini are not Andrastians and don't believe in the Maker. Rather, they are pantheists who believe in the Natural Order. As such, many hold to the belief that their god and the universe are the same.[1] Many, especially in Kont-aar, have also converted to theQun, as their religion and the Qun are not very contradictory. According to Ferdinand Genitivi, a well-known Chantry scholar, "The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. Resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari Wars. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to be possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."[1]

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why does nobody give the dwarves any credit but shower the elves with all the praises about being the first civilization and the wises and blah, blah, blah.

But in the final accounting, the dwarves have still never been defeated by an outside force. Only the darkspawn, who tend to have a knack for completely steamrolling everyone. And the dwarves have held out against them hundreds of years longer then any other civilization to date.

If you ask me, the whole chosen special race whose lore might be the truth won';t be found in elves or humans, but probably in the toughest race currently living under thedas.

[Grieving Natashina]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why does nobody give the dwarves any credit but shower the elves with all the praises about being the first civilization and the wises and blah, blah, blah.

But in the final accounting, the dwarves have still never been defeated by an outside force. Only the darkspawn, who tend to have a knack for completely steamrolling everyone. And the dwarves have held out against them hundreds of years longer then any other civilization to date.

If you ask me, the whole chosen special race whose lore might be the truth won';t be found in elves or humans, but probably in the toughest race currently living under thedas.

Oh, I agree.  The dwarves are probably one of the most badass races on Thedas, but this thread is about the Dalish (and elves in general) receiving some positive growth by the writers.   Which they need badly.

[Mr.House]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why does nobody give the dwarves any credit but shower the elves with all the praises about being the first civilization and the wises and blah, blah, blah.

But in the final accounting, the dwarves have still never been defeated by an outside force. Only the darkspawn, who tend to have a knack for completely steamrolling everyone. And the dwarves have held out against them hundreds of years longer then any other civilization to date.

If you ask me, the whole chosen special race whose lore might be the truth won';t be found in elves or humans, but probably in the toughest race currently living under thedas.

People hgave always picked on the dwarves even when they are cleary the best.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The ancient Alamarri did have their own gods. I believe the Avvar still worship them. So that would be Korth, the Mountain Father and The Lady of the Skies and the like.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:00 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The ancient Alamarri did have their own gods. I believe the Avvar still worship them. So that would be Korth, the Mountain Father and The Lady of the Skies and the like.

Oh, thanks for that.  I love learning about existing beliefs outside of the Chantry among the humans.   Somehow, I think those that follow the Creators and those that follow pantheism might find some common ground.  Now wouldn't that be interesting?  Of course, both sides would have to get over their superstitions and fears first, but it's possible.

I did notice earlier that Rivain is a country that is overall the most decent to the elven population.  Rivain also isn't too happy at all with the Chantry right now since their circle got Annulled.  I can see them joining the elves in rebelling against Orlais.

C'mon writers!  We know that the elves are the punching bag of the series, but you can give them some hope.  Some action.  Some movement that isn't just sliding down.  A few less crazy keepers would be nice too.  I know that things are looking to change for the elves, but I want to see more of this in the games themselves.

Modifié par Starsyn, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:15 .

[The Hierophant]

Starsyn wrote...

C'mon writers!  We know that the elves are the punching bag of the series, but you can give them some hope.  Some action.  Some movement that isn't just sliding down.  A few less crazy keepers would be nice too.  I know that things are looking to change for the elves, but I want to see more of this in the games themselves.

You know things are beyond bad for the elves when their own guardian the Varterral attacks them.

[Grieving Natashina]

The Hierophant wrote...

You know things are beyond bad for the elves when their own guardian the Varterral attacks them.

LOL!  So true. 

[DPSSOC]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Why does nobody give the dwarves any credit but shower the elves with all the praises about being the first civilization and the wises and blah, blah, blah.

Because we don't see as much of the Dwarves.  That's the problem with a race that predominantly lives underground.

Darth Brotarian wrote...
If you ask me, the whole chosen special race whose lore might be the truth won';t be found in elves or humans, but probably in the toughest race currently living under thedas.

Of course it's going to be humans.  The other races have been rather firmly established (IMO) as dead set on being self destructive.  Humans are the only ones who've demonstrated even the slightest inclination to get out of the way of the axe they've swung at their own head.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Agreed.

Dwarves are hardcore, no doubt, but their tendencies of isolationist and disdain for contact with other cultures is their downfall. The dwarves complain that the surface forgets about them outside of Blights, but then states that anyone who leaves the underground, even for the purpose of trade or diplomacy, is the worst type of scum imaginable to the world. And they now face extinction because of it. How can you build allies and gain support if you make no effort at all to build favor with those who you need help from?

Is any of this sounding familiar? Because I could easily replace some pronouns in the above paragraph and be talking about the Dalish.

[Sir JK]

Starsyn wrote...

Oh, thanks for that.  I love learning about existing beliefs outside of the Chantry among the humans.   Somehow, I think those that follow the Creators and those that follow pantheism might find some common ground.  Now wouldn't that be interesting?  Of course, both sides would have to get over their superstitions and fears first, but it's possible.

I'm not sure they would work all that well together. Both have similar religions, yes. Both have mages as central to their cultures, yes. But they differ on a very central and crucial point. The rivaini seers bond themselves with spirits. The Dalish teach that -all- spirits are dangerous. Sooner or later that ought to cause trouble in any potential partnership between the two.

I did notice earlier that Rivain is a country that is overall the most decent to the elven population.  Rivain also isn't too happy at all with the Chantry right now since their circle got Annulled.  I can see them joining the elves in rebelling against Orlais.

There's absolutely no way the Grand Cleric of Rivain and the Knight-Commander of Darsmuíd didn't know about the exchange between circle and seers (the cause of the annulment). It's been going on forever. So I don't think the rivaini chantry is any worse for the wear. It's primarily a thing of the nobles anyways. The seers themselves are, as far as we know, unaffected by this so I don't see any reason the populace of Rivain would support a war on the other side of the known world.

Besides, with the Felissima Armada to the south, the Qunari to the north (and a significant presence in northern  rivain), an andrastian nobility, close contact with Tevinter merchants and a pantheist populace, I doubt Rivain is in any mood for adventures.
That country is a powder keg. They'd want to stay far away from anything remotely close to a fiery conflict.

[Magdalena11]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Agreed.

Dwarves are hardcore, no doubt, but their tendencies of isolationist and disdain for contact with other cultures is their downfall. The dwarves complain that the surface forgets about them outside of Blights, but then states that anyone who leaves the underground, even for the purpose of trade or diplomacy, is the worst type of scum imaginable to the world. And they now face extinction because of it. How can you build allies and gain support if you make no effort at all to build favor with those who you need help from?

Is any of this sounding familiar? Because I could easily replace some pronouns in the above paragraph and be talking about the Dalish.

The last sentence could no be more true.

[Darth Death]

The dalish in general are uninteresting.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tevinter enslaving the Arlathan elves and destroying their kingdom when the elves closed their borders (according to elven lore) as a result of losing their immortality and falling prey to diseases, and (if Dalish history is accurate) the Chantry invading the sovereign nation of the Dales because they wouldn't convert to the human religion, make the situation a bit more complicated than what you're suggesting. 

Who let Tevinter get that powerful? The Tevinter are pretty blatantly a dangerous expanding entity that practices very ruthless traditions involving conquest and subjugation of non-mages.

Arlathan had engaged Tevinter, and only retreated because they were starting to fall ill to diseases and mortality for the first time in their existence - according to elven lore. I don't see how that supports your argument when Arlathan engaged Tevinter beforehand.

Vandicus wrote...

The Chantry didn't get involved until after the elves had reached Val Royeaux. You might claim that Orlais started the conflict(which we don't even know for sure), but it certainly wasn't the Chantry that started the war. In either case, the elves had removed themselves from the world, stuck their fingers in their ears, and said "lalalalala" while the balance of power in the world shifted around them. They put no effort forth to ensure their sovereignty. As I mentioned previously, ignoring the world, doesn't mean it will ignore you.

The attitude of "let's just let them have Poland" is directly linked to their fall imo. 

The Dalish and the elven Warden say the war between the Dales and Orlais (the seat of Chantry power) started because the elves wouldn't convert to the Chantry, and their codex even mentions templars coming into their sovereign territory after they kicked out the Chantry missionaries. There's more than the Chantry side to this historical event, so trying to argue that neutrality is the indisputable reason behind the fall of the Dales doesn't work.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

There's more than the Chantry side to this historical event, so trying to argue that neutrality is the indisputable reason behind the fall of the Dales doesn't work.

It's NOT neutrality that is the problem. Antiva was neutral in the war between Orlais and Ferelden. The Dalish have always been aloof, cold and distant to other nations in every instance of their nationhood. THAT'S the problem. You can't act like you are above all other nations and then, when someone comes knocking at your door with plans of conquest, play the victim card.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

If you can't see the glaring flaws in the way the Dalish comport themselves in a world that would just as soon seem them disappear forever, then you are looking at them through rose colored glasses.  Unless the Dalish culture was 'be racist asses', then the current Dalish lose nothing of what they are trying to regain by making the attempt at being reasonable neighbors/guests when they enter an area.  

I see the reality of Thedas being filled with kingdoms that are intolerant towards the Dalish and the elven religion, and with templars hunt them down. I'm not seeing why that point continually gets glossed over with people who conveniently forget how elves, mages, and heathens are treated by Andrastians.

TK514 wrote...

Being an unreasonably and aggressively racist douche to everyone who approaches your camp is a good way to convince the rest of the world that you aren't worth the time to get to know, certainly aren't worth the time to assist if you get in trouble, and just maybe would be better dead or run off.  If the past the Dalish cling to so desperately taught them anything, it should have been that they can not take and hold a homeland without allies.  And in both previous cases, they were comprised of actual nations rather than scattered clans that can barely stand one another.

The people who encroach their clans seem to be templars, who pursue them, or even Andrastians threatening the Dalish to convert can happen, as it did with the Sabrae clan. Humans even tried to burn down Velanna's clan. I don't see why that makes the Dalish bad guys.

TK514 wrote...

The elves can not survive without allies, and instead they make it a point to make sure everyone they come in contact with sees them as a nuiscance, if not an outright enemy. 

Frankly, if they die out, it will be their own fault. 

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.

Blame? Who cares who's to blame? I don't think anyone is saying human nations didn't have a large part in how things played out. But it was the actions the Dalish took led them to being bums and refugees. The actions they continue to take keep them as bums and refugees, if not facing outright extinction. So obviously their tactics are wrong.

Saying that humans are mean, evil creatures for going to war with a nearby nation is naive. War is inevitable. The Dalish can't just sit around and not expect conflict to come to their doorstep as a nation. It is their responsibility to actively engage other nations for support and mutually beneficial relationships, otherwise they will always be doomed.

This isn't an obstacle of them being Elvish (although it certainly plays into some of the situations that arise). It is an issue of the Dalish being out manned, out gunned and STILL having terrible statecraft that makes any nation they build or are given to be doomed.

The second they stop seeing humans as the source of all their problems while dreaming about the glory days is the second they start having a shot at being a normal nation that would have a decent shot at survival.

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales. 

Blame? Who cares who's to blame? I don't think anyone is saying human nations didn't have a large part in how things played out. But it was the actions the Dalish took led them to being bums and refugees. The actions they continue to take keep them as bums and refugees, if not facing outright extinction. So obviously their tactics are wrong. 

The history of the Dalish - and even the elven Warden - says that the war transpired because the elves wouldn't convert. Unless you're personally privy to what actually happened, you don't get to say that your narrative is the indisputable truth.

Frankly, I get that you dislike the Dalish, but I simply don't care.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Saying that humans are mean, evil creatures for going to war with a nearby nation is naive. War is inevitable. The Dalish can't just sit around and not expect conflict to come to their doorstep as a nation. It is their responsibility to actively engage other nations for support and mutually beneficial relationships, otherwise they will always be doomed.

Where did I say all humans are mean and evil? I was pointing out that the Dalish have their own historical account. Some people act like there's only one.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This isn't an obstacle of them being Elvish (although it certainly plays into some of the situations that arise). It is an issue of the Dalish being out manned, out gunned and STILL having terrible statecraft that makes any nation they build or are given to be doomed.

The second they stop seeing humans as the source of all their problems while dreaming about the glory days is the second they start having a shot at being a normal nation that would have a decent shot at survival.

You mean the Dalish could capitulate to the Chantry, convert to their religion, surrender their mages to the templars, and live in servitude like their city counterparts, who aren't legally permitted to hold weapons, and have no representation at the royal court - with only King Alistair changing that in Ferelden and causing a huge scandal among the humans as result.

I'm rather glad the Dalish never surrendered their heritage or religion.

[Fast Jimmy]

You mean the Dalish could capitulate to the Chantry, convert to their religion, surrender their mages to the templars, and live in servitude like their city counterparts, who aren't legally permitted to hold weapons, and have no representation at the royal court - with only King Alistair changing that in Ferelden and causing a huge scandal among the humans as result.

I'm rather glad the Dalish never surrendered their heritage or religion.

That you (and it seems the Dalish) view this as their only option is the problem. Have the Dalish tried to reach out to sympathetic humans? Have they made an attempt to contact the arls in the lands they are invading (yes, it is an invasion if a hostile military force moves into your land, even if they we nomads) to discuss terms where they would be avoiding conflict, let alone come to some sort of mutually beneficial relationship? Have they tried to have better communication amongst the clans, so they could present some form of a united face on issues that arise? Have they done anything for their cousins in the Alienage other than look down their noses at them and treat any who do leave the cities to join as bumbling outsiders?

That's my problem with the Dalish - they love telling stories about the good old days and how the humans oppress them at every turn... guess what? No one is going to give you anything in life. They need to work to earn their shot at becoming a nation again. That doesn't mean converting to the Chantry - after all, Rivain seems to get along just fine as a country without being converted, and Atevinter even has their own Divine which ignores completely the Orlesian Chantry.

It simply means they just need to stop making enemies every chance they get and, instead, work on making some friends. Build some alliances. Unite the efforts of the elves, Dalish and CE alike. And, all in all, stop just sulking in the forest, unless they like the idea of extinction.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 janvier 2014 - 01:54 .

[CybAnt1]

Why does nobody give the dwarves any credit but shower the elves with all the praises about being the first civilization and the wises and blah, blah, blah.

Both cultures have clearly lost aspects of their culture. The dwarves seem like the elves to be very particular about keeping their history, but also have gaps in it. The various thaigs we've been to were part of the dwarven civilization, but had to be abandoned to darkspawn or other creatures, as they've retreated to Orzammar. In the past, the dwarves seemed to know more about the creation and control of golems - now increasingly a lost art. (Well, as our experience with the Anvil suggests, like many things in the game, one that poses moral dilemmas, too.) 

Personally, I think as we find out more about Thedas' past, we'll realize its four races are increasingly connected. The elves are the most magical race and the dwarves are the ones that mine and bring lyrium ... this suggests a connection that both peoples have forgotten. There's more secrets in those thaigs. 

Why do the dwarves seem to be less hated? (Not on the forums, I mean by humans in the game.) 

1. They mine & have something humans actually need (lyrium). Elves have ironbark, but humans don't depend on it. 
2. They're the first line of defense against the darkspawn between Blights. As long as their Legion are holding back the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, they won't emerge to the surface to bother human cities. 
3. Humans don't seem to be too interested in living underground, so there's no reason to conquer dwarven 'lands' and take them from them. 

Interestingly, though, just like the Elves, they appear to avoid mating with humans, mostly due to declining numbers and that such children end up 'half-dwarves'. I do find it interesting there never has been a Dwarven romance option. Oddly enough, even to a Dwarf Warden in DA:O. 

Forumgoers may not like the dwarven caste system, but in reality Thedan humans don't seem to be bothered by it, after all, it's not like in their own civilizations you don't have nobility leading the high life and serfs scrounging for scraps. 

[Mistic]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.

True. Thedas seems to follow pre-Westphalia diplomacy. Allies and enemies are made according to religion first, and if the religion is the same then it depends on national interests. The only times when countries with different religions have allied with each other have been against the darkspawn and the Qunari.

That's why the Grey Wardens are so important. And if the Inquisition is going to become "the Grey Wardens of the Supernatural", maybe it will be another step towards understanding. The Dalish are screwed otherwise.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Who let Tevinter get that powerful? The Tevinter are pretty blatantly a dangerous expanding entity that practices very ruthless traditions involving conquest and subjugation of non-mages.

Arlathan had engaged Tevinter, and only retreated because they were starting to fall ill to diseases and mortality for the first time in their existence - according to elven lore. I don't see how that supports your argument when Arlathan engaged Tevinter beforehand.

You pointed it out yourself, they retreated, completely.  Arlathan's total withdrawal meant that they weren't able to keep Tevinter in check, or even keep an eye on them.  That let Tevinter grow powerful enough to invade.  Had the elves just kept an eye on them, didn't have to interact just watch, they could have seen how Tevinter was shaping up and taken pre-emptive action.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's not the impression I got about the Dalish. Resilient, strong, refusing to surrender their faith or their culture. I'm looking forward to a Dalish Inquisitor, and hopefully, aiding the Elvhen in reclaiming their homeland.

If you can't see the glaring flaws in the way the Dalish comport themselves in a world that would just as soon seem them disappear forever, then you are looking at them through rose colored glasses.  Unless the Dalish culture was 'be racist asses', then the current Dalish lose nothing of what they are trying to regain by making the attempt at being reasonable neighbors/guests when they enter an area.  

I see the reality of Thedas being filled with kingdoms that are intolerant towards the Dalish and the elven religion, and with templars hunt them down. I'm not seeing why that point continually gets glossed over with people who conveniently forget how elves, mages, and heathens are treated by Andrastians.

Because the Dalish give people no reason to get over or look past their intolerance.  That's the sad truth about humanity is that we aren't going to change our way of looking at/dealing with things on our own, we need to be given reasons to reassess.  So it falls on the people who suffer intolerance to give the intolerant a reason to reassess.  It's not enough to not do anything to deserve intolerance, you have to demonstrate that you deserve tolerance.  The Dwarves are a good example, they have as many differences as the elves do with humans but we don't see a lot of intolerance towards them, primarily because they offered trade in things the humans couldn't get on their own.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...
Being an unreasonably and aggressively racist douche to everyone who approaches your camp is a good way to convince the rest of the world that you aren't worth the time to get to know, certainly aren't worth the time to assist if you get in trouble, and just maybe would be better dead or run off.  If the past the Dalish cling to so desperately taught them anything, it should have been that they can not take and hold a homeland without allies.  And in both previous cases, they were comprised of actual nations rather than scattered clans that can barely stand one another.

The people who encroach their clans seem to be templars, who pursue them, or even Andrastians threatening the Dalish to convert can happen, as it did with the Sabrae clan. Humans even tried to burn down Velanna's clan. I don't see why that makes the Dalish bad guys.

Because the Dalish are constantly trespassing on other people's property.  You can't set up a campfire on some dude's lawn without his permission and then get upset when he comes out with a hose.  If the Dalish, just once, approached a settlement and said, "We'd like to set up camp around here is that cool?" I'd have a degree of sympathy for them, hell if they just once offered ANYTHING in return for leaving them in peace I'd be on their side.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...
The elves can not survive without allies, and instead they make it a point to make sure everyone they come in contact with sees them as a nuiscance, if not an outright enemy. 

Frankly, if they die out, it will be their own fault. 

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.

To what end?  The Dalish are incapable of maintaining alliances (they won't deal with humans because immortality) so any set up in Inquisition will survive only as long as the Inquisitor is around to act on their behalf. As for getting Orlais out of the Dales the question comes again to what end?  Let's say in an ideal situation you convince Orlais to withdraw it's people from the Dales, the end result will be the Fall of the Dales all over again because the Dalish have learned nothing in their centuries of exile, and without the Inquisitor, or someone like them, to put out fires hostilities will rise, war will break out, and the Dalish will again stand alone.

[rasloveszev]

 The dalish have been clearly established as underdogs in Thedas.

Elves in generally are. I think City Elves are more like Underdogs because they're more oppressed and not even allowed to fight.

 They've been mocked by two of our elf companions (Zevran and Fenris).

Fenris is too busy being ignorant and hypocritical towards mages to care that much about the Dalish.
If Zevran even does mock them, it's no more or less that the other things he mocks. He's even happy when you give him Dalish gloves.

In DA2 they were depicted even more negatively than in DAO.

I totally disagree with you. The Keeper is very friendly, Merill is very friendly, and depending on what YOU do, they're not hostile creatures..

I feel we have so far been seeing them at their worst.

Totally disagree with you. Whenever they are hostile it is because someone has wronged them, and if your Warden is Mahariel, people have a less megative view on the Dalish.

Does anyone wish that we'll be able to help the dalish have some moment of glory during DA:I?

WE DID. In Dragon Age 1, we convinced them to help us in the Blight and they were given for their help. Keeper Lanya is nice to human and effectively pacifies alot of the turmoil between the Dalish and the Human in Ostogar.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arlathan had engaged Tevinter, and only retreated because they were starting to fall ill to diseases and mortality for the first time in their existence - according to elven lore. I don't see how that supports your argument when Arlathan engaged Tevinter beforehand.

You pointed it out yourself, they retreated, completely.  Arlathan's total withdrawal meant that they weren't able to keep Tevinter in check, or even keep an eye on them.  That let Tevinter grow powerful enough to invade.  Had the elves just kept an eye on them, didn't have to interact just watch, they could have seen how Tevinter was shaping up and taken pre-emptive action.

As we know from Sundermount, the Arlathan elves fought Tevinter, and lost. If the elven lore is true, then you think elves suddenly suffering from disease and aging would have been a match for Tevinter humans who were already accustomed to mortality and disease for generations. I'm not going to blame Arlathan or the elves because Tevinter invaded and enslaved.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I see the reality of Thedas being filled with kingdoms that are intolerant towards the Dalish and the elven religion, and with templars hunt them down. I'm not seeing why that point continually gets glossed over with people who conveniently forget how elves, mages, and heathens are treated by Andrastians.

Because the Dalish give people no reason to get over or look past their intolerance.  That's the sad truth about humanity is that we aren't going to change our way of looking at/dealing with things on our own, we need to be given reasons to reassess.  So it falls on the people who suffer intolerance to give the intolerant a reason to reassess.  It's not enough to not do anything to deserve intolerance, you have to demonstrate that you deserve tolerance.  The Dwarves are a good example, they have as many differences as the elves do with humans but we don't see a lot of intolerance towards them, primarily because they offered trade in things the humans couldn't get on their own.

The dwarves have the sole monopoly on obtaining and distributing lyrium, and they reside in a virtually impenetrable location. This isn't an apt comparison.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The people who encroach their clans seem to be templars, who pursue them, or even Andrastians threatening the Dalish to convert can happen, as it did with the Sabrae clan. Humans even tried to burn down Velanna's clan. I don't see why that makes the Dalish bad guys.

Because the Dalish are constantly trespassing on other people's property.  You can't set up a campfire on some dude's lawn without his permission and then get upset when he comes out with a hose.  If the Dalish, just once, approached a settlement and said, "We'd like to set up camp around here is that cool?" I'd have a degree of sympathy for them, hell if they just once offered ANYTHING in return for leaving them in peace I'd be on their side.

Considering the Dalish are violating the law by worshipping the Creators and having free mages in their midst, I can't take your criticism seriously. You're condemning the Dalish for not surrendering to Andrastian forces, as their culture and religion make them criminals of Chantry law.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.

To what end?  The Dalish are incapable of maintaining alliances (they won't deal with humans because immortality) so any set up in Inquisition will survive only as long as the Inquisitor is around to act on their behalf. As for getting Orlais out of the Dales the question comes again to what end?  Let's say in an ideal situation you convince Orlais to withdraw it's people from the Dales, the end result will be the Fall of the Dales all over again because the Dalish have learned nothing in their centuries of exile, and without the Inquisitor, or someone like them, to put out fires hostilities will rise, war will break out, and the Dalish will again stand alone.

The Dalish have a treaty with the Wardens; Marethari welcomed Duncan and Hawke into her camp, while Velanna's clan civilly commented on the Warden-Commander. I'm not seeing how elven lore has prohibited the Dalish from speaking and engaging with non-elves.

As for an independent Dales (one with the religious freedom to worship the Creators), I think the Inquisition can play a part in preventing another invasion by Andrastian forces.

[Fast Jimmy]

Considering the Dalish are violating the law by worshipping the Creators and having free mages in their midst, I can't take your criticism seriously. You're condemning the Dalish for not surrendering to Andrastian forces, as their culture and religion make them criminals of Chantry law.

Rivain is a land where Mages are both free and in positions of power, while not submitting the chantry dogma, yet seem to have no problem maintaining their sovereignty from the other Andrastian nations.

So... you're argument is invalid.

EDIT: Also, the wild tribes in the Korcari Wilds do the exact same thing, yet don't have the Chantry banging down their borders on a daily basis. To somehow say that the Dalish would have to be forced to do something when there are clear examples of the opposite happening is silly. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 janvier 2014 - 03:48 .