1258 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Considering the Dalish are violating the law by worshipping the Creators and having free mages in their midst, I can't take your criticism seriously. You're condemning the Dalish for not surrendering to Andrastian forces, as their culture and religion make them criminals of Chantry law.

Rivain is a land where Mages are both free and in positions of power, while not submitting the chantry dogma, yet seem to have no problem maintaining their sovereignty from the other Andrastian nations.

So... you're argument is invalid.

The Right of Annulment in Rivain - when the Seekers discovered that seers were really not constrained by the local templars of the Rivaini kingdom - proves otherwise.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EDIT: Also, the wild tribes in the Korcari Wilds do the exact same thing, yet don't have the Chantry banging down their borders on a daily basis. To somehow say that the Dalish would have to be forced to do something when there are clear examples of the opposite happening is silly. 

The Chasind and the Avvar live outside of the Andrastian kingdoms. That doesn't support your argument at all.

[Gwydden]

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

[cjones91]

Gwydden wrote...

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

They tried living in the now abandoned lands of Ostagar but the humans would'nt allow it.Besides what makes you think the humans will stop harrassing the Dalish because they live outside the Andrastian lands?

[Medhia Nox]

I want the extinction of the Dalish purely for story purposes.

If anyone is going to find a new place on Thedas - I want it to be a city elf group that leaves their ancestral roots in the dust and actually moves on and becomes something new.

Not a huge fan of half-arsed nature loving elf-kind.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

Considering Morrigan's mention of templars hunting apostates in the wilderness, I doubt the Chasind or the Avvar are exempt. Free mages among them would also be seen as apostates or maleficar.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:12 .

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I want the extinction of the Dalish purely for story purposes.

If anyone is going to find a new place on Thedas - I want it to be a city elf group that leaves their ancestral roots in the dust and actually moves on and becomes something new.

Not a huge fan of half-arsed nature loving elf-kind.

You do realize some city elves honor their history right?Just because the Dalish are stuck in the past does'nt mean every elf has to give up their heritage in or to move forward.

[HiroVoid]

cjones91 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

They tried living in the now abandoned lands of Ostagar but the humans would'nt allow it.Besides what makes you think the humans will stop harrassing the Dalish because they live outside the Andrastian lands?

Do we know humans were responsible?  I thought I remembered hearing Lothering was basically uninhabitable due to the darkspawn taint.  Can't imagine Ostagar and the surrounding lands that the darkspawn invaded were in much better shape.  Alistair should've gone out to see what the lands looked like.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: I'm stating opinion. This is what "I" would like to see.. not any real commentary about "what is".

IF the Dalish are supposed to be some sort of Native American derivative - then I hope they stop, cause it's so poorly done.  Almost insulting really.

IF the Dalish are supposed to be Tolkienesque... then I hope they stop, cause it's so half arsed.

====

What I DO hope - is that they're presenting the Dalish as a group of people that are totally responsible for being left behind.

That they're insistence on living in a past they can't change - is stopping them from achieving any real future.

====

But again, just opinion.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I want the extinction of the Dalish purely for story purposes.

If anyone is going to find a new place on Thedas - I want it to be a city elf group that leaves their ancestral roots in the dust and actually moves on and becomes something new.

Not a huge fan of half-arsed nature loving elf-kind.

I'm not a huge fan of the argument that the only elves who should prosper are the ones who abandoned their heritage and religious beliefs for sanctuary in human lands.

An independent Dales serving as a mecca for elves across Thedas would be ideal to me. I hope the elven protagonist can help make it a reality, given the rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales.

[Fast Jimmy]

cjones91 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

They tried living in the now abandoned lands of Ostagar but the humans would'nt allow it.Besides what makes you think the humans will stop harrassing the Dalish because they live outside the Andrastian lands?

Because the Dalish might actually be smart and try and be allies with their new neighbors? 

You are acting like humans would try and hunt the Dalish down just to make their lives worse. When in reality, the Dalish throw any antagonism, both past and present, right into the faces of any they encounter and never stop and say "hey, what can we do to prevent everyone around us from being afraid of us, hate us or just, in general, thinking we are a nuisance?" 

[cjones91]

HiroVoid wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

They tried living in the now abandoned lands of Ostagar but the humans would'nt allow it.Besides what makes you think the humans will stop harrassing the Dalish because they live outside the Andrastian lands?

Do we know humans were responsible?  I thought I remembered hearing Lothering was basically uninhabitable due to the darkspawn taint.  Can't imagine Ostagar and the surrounding lands that the darkspawn invaded were in much better shape.  Alistair should've gone out to see what the lands looked like.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If you pick the Dalish boon and then import that save into DA2 Alistair mentions how humans in surrounding areas did'nt like the Dalish living in Ostagar.The endling slide described the hostility towards the Dalish from the humans living near Ostagar and how a conflict almost broke out because of it.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: I know what you want - I'm just sharing what I want. Ultimately - Bioware will make what they want.

Also - I'm not saying I want the elves to be stuck in human lands - I want them to innovate and become "something else".

My initial thought? The city elves smack the Dalish upside the head - take the caravans and turn them into a merchant empire. That money then goes to secretly scouting out and funding a militia that will help them carve out their own nation.

What I am not at all interested in... is a bunch of backwards tree huggers thinking the power of their dead ancestors who were beaten by humans (meaning the secrets of their ancestors didn't work) will save them.

Note: LOVE nature worshipping people - but the Dalish are like modern eco-hippies. Not "really" into nature - just into looking like they're into nature.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:23 .

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because the Dalish might actually be smart and try and be allies with their new neighbors?

You mean, doing precisely what Lanaya does as Keeper, in settling disputes and appearing at court?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You are acting like humans would try and hunt the Dalish down just to make their lives worse. When in reality, the Dalish throw any antagonism, both past and present, right into the faces of any they encounter and never stop and say "hey, what can we do to prevent everyone around us from being afraid of us, hate us or just, in general, thinking we are a nuisance?" 

Humans do hunt down the Dalish; it's part of the reason for their nomadic lifestyle, as Merrill explains.

[cjones91]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Then why don't the dalish do the same?

They tried living in the now abandoned lands of Ostagar but the humans would'nt allow it.Besides what makes you think the humans will stop harrassing the Dalish because they live outside the Andrastian lands?

Because the Dalish might actually be smart and try and be allies with their new neighbors? 

You are acting like humans would try and hunt the Dalish down just to make their lives worse. When in reality, the Dalish throw any antagonism, both past and present, right into the faces of any they encounter and never stop and say "hey, what can we do to prevent everyone around us from being afraid of us, hate us or just, in general, thinking we are a nuisance?" 

That works both ways,the City Elves are forced to live in their communities because if they try to open up shops or get a home in the human cities then it gets burned down and the elf in question gets driven out if their lucky.

[Medhia Nox]

Time for the Dalish to invest in the lyirum trade.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm not a huge fan of the argument that the only elves who should prosper are the ones who abandoned their heritage and religious beliefs for sanctuary in human lands.

And I'm not a fan of demeaning victims of an oppressive invasion as somehow being cultural race traitors for trying to survive. I find it really confusing that one the one hand, you see any situation where the Dalish and humans clash as illustrative of the Dalish being victims, but cannot stop blaming the CEs for attempting to survive. 

An independent Dales serving as a mecca for elves across Thedas would be ideal to me. I hope the elven protagonist can help make it a reality, given the rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales.

An independent Dales would be a mecca for invasion, by your own reasoning. Let's say I concede every point you make: (i) the humans regard the Dalish as heathens, and actively loathe and hate them; (ii) the Dalish, using your plan that totally isn't ethic cleasing, forcibly relocate humans from the Dales that have been living there for over 700 years, flooding every other country with refugeees; (iii) the Dalish forcbly exclude every human from their borders, and (iv) refuse and and all attempt at diplomacy other than "cross-our-borders and die". 

Just what is going to keep the Orlesians - just the Orlesians, like the rest time, because according to WOT, they were the only ones in the Exalted March against the Dales - from curbstomping the Dales into non-existence? 

What is your actual endgame here? Because your argument is that the Dales will not be allowed by humans to exist as an independent nation, but somehow want the Dales to be an independent nation. 

I mean, ignoring the fact where you forcibly convert every elf to a new religion and a new way of living, or otherwise turn them into second-class citizens. 

[HopHazzard]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I'm stating opinion. This is what "I" would like to see.. not any real commentary about "what is".

IF the Dalish are supposed to be some sort of Native American derivative - then I hope they stop, cause it's so poorly done.  Almost insulting really.

IF the Dalish are supposed to be Tolkienesque... then I hope they stop, cause it's so half arsed.

====

What I DO hope - is that they're presenting the Dalish as a group of people that are totally responsible for being left behind.

That they're insistence on living in a past they can't change - is stopping them from achieving any real future.

====

But again, just opinion.

I don't think the Dalish are meant to be Tolkienesque at all. They're not meant to represent Native Americans either. The writers do draw from real life history though. The Dalish are an amalgamation of several displaced/opressed people. Similarities can be drawn to Native Americans, the Roma, African slaves, Jews Pre-WWII, even the Welsh. There's no single real world culture that the Dalish are meant to represent.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Time for the Dalish to invest in the lyirum trade.

They will have to compete with the Chantry and Tevinter in order to do so and the Dalish track record regarding both isn't good.

[In Exile]

Misticsan wrote...
True. Thedas seems to follow pre-Westphalia diplomacy. Allies and enemies are made according to religion first, and if the religion is the same then it depends on national interests. The only times when countries with different religions have allied with each other have been against the darkspawn and the Qunari.

That's why the Grey Wardens are so important. And if the Inquisition is going to become "the Grey Wardens of the Supernatural", maybe it will be another step towards understanding. The Dalish are screwed otherwise.

That can't be true. The dwarves have co-existed in peace with humans for pretty much their entire existence. Orzammar is at the border of Ferelden and Orlais, and there were never any problems. Even if we take DA:O ending slides as gospel, military tensions appear only when the dwarves essentially persecute Chantry missionaries. 

[Fortlowe]

Forget the past at your peril. Humans have and will encroach on elven lands. That they choose to be neighborly or isolate themselves doesn't seem to make a difference. The original elves where neighborly and all it got for them is conquest. Also it is not as though the elves don't come to their hostility honestly. Except for the rare exception, elves are generally treated as anything from second class citizens to animals by humanity. Not to mention the genetic bypass humans seem to have in reproductive matters (a subject I find intruiging in the fact that the two races are able to do so at all).

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: I know what you want - I'm just sharing what I want. Ultimately - Bioware will make what they want. 

Also - I'm not saying I want the elves to be stuck in human lands - I want them to innovate and become "something else". 

My initial thought? The city elves smack the Dalish upside the head - take the caravans and turn them into a merchant empire. That money then goes to secretly scouting out and funding a militia that will help them carve out their own nation.

What I am not at all interested in... is a bunch of backwards tree huggers thinking the power of their dead ancestors who were beaten by humans (meaning the secrets of their ancestors didn't work) will save them.

Note: LOVE nature worshipping people - but the Dalish are like modern eco-hippies. Not "really" into nature - just into looking like they're into nature.

Building a future doesn't necessitate forgoing the past. It's not like the Dalish have much of an opportunity to forge a new future when their existence is mainly focused on staying alive on a continent where simply being Dalish makes one an outlaw.

Your suggestion about city elves and nomadic elves working together is one I agree with. However, I think the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War makes this an opportune time for the elves to try to topple the Orlesian regime in the Dales. I doubt Celene or Gaspard would want to fight a two-front war against the elves and each other, so getting an alliance between the Dalish (who are supposed to be having a gathering in the Dales) and the Alienage elves (who might be part of the elven rebellion we have heard rumors about) could help facilitate the return of an elven kingdom.

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm not a huge fan of the argument that the only elves who should prosper are the ones who abandoned their heritage and religious beliefs for sanctuary in human lands.

And I'm not a fan of demeaning victims of an oppressive invasion as somehow being cultural race traitors for trying to survive. I find it really confusing that one the one hand, you see any situation where the Dalish and humans clash as illustrative of the Dalish being victims, but cannot stop blaming the CEs for attempting to survive. 

An independent Dales serving as a mecca for elves across Thedas would be ideal to me. I hope the elven protagonist can help make it a reality, given the rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales.

An independent Dales would be a mecca for invasion, by your own reasoning. Let's say I concede every point you make: (i) the humans regard the Dalish as heathens, and actively loathe and hate them; (ii) the Dalish, using your plan that totally isn't ethic cleasing, forcibly relocate humans from the Dales that have been living there for over 700 years, flooding every other country with refugeees; (iii) the Dalish forcbly exclude every human from their borders, and (iv) refuse and and all attempt at diplomacy other than "cross-our-borders and die". 

Just what is going to keep the Orlesians - just the Orlesians, like the rest time, because according to WOT, they were the only ones in the Exalted March against the Dales - from curbstomping the Dales into non-existence? 

What is your actual endgame here? Because your argument is that the Dales will not be allowed by humans to exist as an independent nation, but somehow want the Dales to be an independent nation. 

I mean, ignoring the fact where you forcibly convert every elf to a new religion and a new way of living, or otherwise turn them into second-class citizens. 

Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

Misticsan wrote...
True. Thedas seems to follow pre-Westphalia diplomacy. Allies and enemies are made according to religion first, and if the religion is the same then it depends on national interests. The only times when countries with different religions have allied with each other have been against the darkspawn and the Qunari.

That's why the Grey Wardens are so important. And if the Inquisition is going to become "the Grey Wardens of the Supernatural", maybe it will be another step towards understanding. The Dalish are screwed otherwise.

That can't be true. The dwarves have co-existed in peace with humans for pretty much their entire existence. Orzammar is at the border of Ferelden and Orlais, and there were never any problems. Even if we take DA:O ending slides as gospel, military tensions appear only when the dwarves essentially persecute Chantry missionaries. 

The dwarves live in a mountainside that (as we know from the slides) the surface world can't penetrate in the scenario where they attack because of King Harrowmont and Branka, and the dwarves have the sole monopoly on the lyrium trade that both the templars and the Circle mages are dependent on.

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.