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[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The dwarves live in a mountainside that (as we know from the slides) the surface world can't penetrate in the scenario where they attack because of King Harrowmont and Branka, and the dwarves have the sole monopoly on the lyrium trade that both the templars and the Circle mages are dependent on.

You mean, the dwarves happen to live in a highly defensible locale and are so integral to the function and economy of the Andrastian nations, attacking them would be suicidal? 

Because that just shows that even in Thedas, self-interest and power trump any potential racism. None of which the elves currently have, or seem to want to pursue. 

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...
That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

Whoever said that is support ethinic cleasing and genocide, but I certainly didn't say that. It shouldn't be in doubt that the elves were oppressed and Orlais committed the worst sort of war crimes (Tevinter too). None of that justifies (a) future ethnic cleasing by the elves; and ( would make even a little difference in helping the elves establishing a country. 

This isn't the 20th century, where there is a social consciousness about righting past wrongs. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not a huge fan of the argument that the only elves who should prosper are the ones who abandoned their heritage and religious beliefs for sanctuary in human lands.

And I'm not a fan of demeaning victims of an oppressive invasion as somehow being cultural race traitors for trying to survive. I find it really confusing that one the one hand, you see any situation where the Dalish and humans clash as illustrative of the Dalish being victims, but cannot stop blaming the CEs for attempting to survive.

Considering that I abhor the purges against the Alienages and their mistreatment, I'm not certain where you're coming from. My problem is with people who think the Dalish should only prosper as a people if they surrender their heritage and their religious beliefs.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An independent Dales serving as a mecca for elves across Thedas would be ideal to me. I hope the elven protagonist can help make it a reality, given the rumors of an elven rebellion in occupied Dales.

An independent Dales would be a mecca for invasion, by your own reasoning. Let's say I concede every point you make: (i) the humans regard the Dalish as heathens, and actively loathe and hate them; (ii) the Dalish, using your plan that totally isn't ethic cleasing, forcibly relocate humans from the Dales that have been living there for over 700 years, flooding every other country with refugeees; (iii) the Dalish forcbly exclude every human from their borders, and (iv) refuse and and all attempt at diplomacy other than "cross-our-borders and die". 

Just what is going to keep the Orlesians - just the Orlesians, like the rest time, because according to WOT, they were the only ones in the Exalted March against the Dales - from curbstomping the Dales into non-existence?

The Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War, initially.

In Exile wrote...

What is your actual endgame here? Because your argument is that the Dales will not be allowed by humans to exist as an independent nation, but somehow want the Dales to be an independent nation. 

I mean, ignoring the fact where you forcibly convert every elf to a new religion and a new way of living, or otherwise turn them into second-class citizens. 

I think the Inquisition can be a factor here, since it's an organization (with an eye towards spanning the continent) with a growing military force and building alliances with other nations, and can be headed by an elven Inquisitor.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that I abhor the purges against the Alienages and their mistreatment, I'm not certain where you're coming from. My problem is with people who think the Dalish should only prosper as a people if they surrender their heritage and their religious beliefs.

That's not what you said. And it's not how you've described the CEs on multiple occassions. In fact, your entire endgame for the CEs is for them to be assimilated without exception into the Dalish. 

The Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War, initially.

A blight ravaged Orlais, when it was much smaller than it is today, and in 80 years they burned the Dales, massacred its armies, and basically enslaved its people. Even if both wars are as bad as a blight when combined with the Veil tear, it still doesn't bode well for the Dalish. 

It also doesn't address your view that humans are dedicated to violently persecuted the Dalish. So the Dalish have some time to actually create a functional society - let's say a century. They lost at their height of their power to Orlais. What's different about this time?

I think the Inquisition can be a factor here, since it's an organization (with an eye towards spanning the continent) with a growing military force and building alliances with other nations, and can be headed by an elven Inquisitor. 

The Inquisition can't be a factor, even if it's led by an elf. Firstly, it's an international organization. How do you think your elven Inquisitor is going to sell all of your human - and Orlesian - troops on becoming involved in a domestic civil war so that his/her personal politcal agenda is fulfilled? 

It's one thing to pick sides during the apocalpyse - like the GWs do. It's another to actually pick sides in a war of conquest. That necessarily makes the Inquisition a threat to every nation on Thedas, because they've become the personal army of whoever leads them. 

This is the biggest reason why the GWs stay neutral - because getting involved in politics would make them serious, series enemies. Look at what repeatedly happened to them in Ferelden, and the GWs had every reason to be there and were actively fighting the darkspawn. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:51 .

[Vandicus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I'm stating opinion. This is what "I" would like to see.. not any real commentary about "what is".

IF the Dalish are supposed to be some sort of Native American derivative - then I hope they stop, cause it's so poorly done.  Almost insulting really.

IF the Dalish are supposed to be Tolkienesque... then I hope they stop, cause it's so half arsed.

====

What I DO hope - is that they're presenting the Dalish as a group of people that are totally responsible for being left behind.

That they're insistence on living in a past they can't change - is stopping them from achieving any real future.

====

But again, just opinion.

I read the Dalish as a parable about isolationism. Their kingdom falls twice due to their unwillingness to have anything to do with the outside world.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

No, its been called ethnic cleansing by the humans too. What we merely pointed out was that the Dalish and the original elven empire had only themselves to blame for their fall. They let all their neighbors be subsumed by mage supremacist blood magic slavers, until Tevinter was strong enough to destroy them.

Then they entered a more fragmented time period where countries were constantly consuming each other, and they put forth no effort to safeguard themselves.

Isolationism is not a valid strategy to keep oneself from being taken over.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarves live in a mountainside that (as we know from the slides) the surface world can't penetrate in the scenario where they attack because of King Harrowmont and Branka, and the dwarves have the sole monopoly on the lyrium trade that both the templars and the Circle mages are dependent on. 

You mean, the dwarves happen to live in a highly defensible locale and are so integral to the function and economy of the Andrastian nations, attacking them would be suicidal? 

Because that just shows that even in Thedas, self-interest and power trump any potential racism. None of which the elves currently have, or seem to want to pursue. 

Actually, it shows that lyrium is the Spice of Thedas.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think the Inquisition can be a factor here, since it's an organization (with an eye towards spanning the continent) with a growing military force and building alliances with other nations, and can be headed by an elven Inquisitor.

Again, to what end? If DA:I allows some kind of creation of a Dalish/elvish state, then what steps would the Dalish take to ensure they aren't invaded within a year? A decade? A century? They can't push humans away constantly in a continent ruled by human nations.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that I abhor the purges against the Alienages and their mistreatment, I'm not certain where you're coming from. My problem is with people who think the Dalish should only prosper as a people if they surrender their heritage and their religious beliefs.

That's not what you said. And it's not how you've described the CEs on multiple occassions. In fact, your entire endgame for the CEs is for them to be assimilated without exception into the Dalish.

As I said to Sir JK months ago, I agreed with him in how I'd like to see how the Dalish learn to work alongside the myriad of elves who migrated to human society after the fall of the Dales. I've continually said that I'd like an independent Dales to be a mecca for elves all across Thedas.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War, initially.

A blight ravaged Orlais, when it was much smaller than it is today, and in 80 years they burned the Dales, massacred its armies, and basically enslaved its people. Even if both wars are as bad as a blight when combined with the Veil tear, it still doesn't bode well for the Dalish.

It also doesn't address your view that humans are dedicated to violently persecuted the Dalish. So the Dalish have some time to actually create a functional society - let's say a century. They lost at their height of their power to Orlais.What's different about this time?

I pointed out the Dalish are criminals according to Chantry law, because of their culture and religious beliefs. An independent Dales would give the elves a sanctuary from this persecution. And the difference this time (I hope), is the Inquisition - a growing military power that will have a presence all over Thedas.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the Inquisition can be a factor here, since it's an organization (with an eye towards spanning the continent) with a growing military force and building alliances with other nations, and can be headed by an elven Inquisitor.

The Inquisition can't be a factor, even if it's led by an elf. Firstly, it's an international organization. How do you think your elven Inquisitor is going to sell all of your human - and Orlesian - troops on becoming involved in a domestic civil war so that his/her personal politcal agenda is fulfilled? 

It's one thing to pick sides during the apocalpyse - like the GWs do. It's another to actually pick sides in a war of conquest. That necessarily makes the Inquisition a threat to every nation on Thedas, because they've become the personal army of whoever leads them. 

This is the biggest reason why the GWs stay neutral - because getting involved in politics would make them serious, series enemies. Look at what repeatedly happened to them in Ferelden, and the GWs had every reason to be there and were actively fighting the darkspawn. 

That's the point - the Inquisition isn't the Grey Wardens. The organization doesn't have to stay neutral. As the developers pointed out, the Inquisitor will shape what the Inquisition is, and who will be allies of this newfound organization.

[HiroVoid]

I'm sure the Inquisition will be able to lead many daring changes that will drastically affect future games such as restoring the elves to a homeland, bringing mages and non-mages together happily, and the freedom of all slaves in Tevinter while holding off the latest Qunari invasion. Oh. And something about demons.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

No, its been called ethnic cleansing by the humans too. What we merely pointed out was that the Dalish and the original elven empire had only themselves to blame for their fall. They let all their neighbors be subsumed by mage supremacist blood magic slavers, until Tevinter was strong enough to destroy them.

Then they entered a more fragmented time period where countries were constantly consuming each other, and they put forth no effort to safeguard themselves.

Isolationism is not a valid strategy to keep oneself from being taken over.

So I guess we can ignore the fact that the elves fought the Magisters until their homeland was sunk into the ground?Or what about the time they allied with Andraste and her forces and helped cripple the Imperium for a short time?Or how about the fact that in regards to the Dales we have no proof of who invaded first aside from biased versions of the events and they were kicking Orlais' asses until the Chantry got involved?


Being isolationist is not a bad thing since if a country tells you to keep out or else then that's their right,also the dwarves are still standing strong despite not liking the surface world all that much so that disproves your assertion that being isolated isn't a valid strategy of protecting against invaders.

Modifié par cjones91, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the Inquisition can be a factor here, since it's an organization (with an eye towards spanning the continent) with a growing military force and building alliances with other nations, and can be headed by an elven Inquisitor. 

Again, to what end? If DA:I allows some kind of creation of a Dalish/elvish state, then what steps would the Dalish take to ensure they aren't invaded within a year? A decade? A century? They can't push humans away constantly in a continent ruled by human nations.

I think the continental organization with armies all over the continent could play a role in preventing another fall of the Dales. It's an option I strongly want to pursue.

Sir JK's notion of extravagant and lavish Orlesian elves, death-inspired Nevarran elves, devout Anders elves, free minded Ferelden elves, diverse Marcher elves, trading Antivan elves, and Rivaini elves all trying to live together in an independent kingdom is something that I'm interested in dealing with as well.

[dragondreamer]

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

Apparently it's also okay for dwarves to oppress their lower social classes because humans do it too.  But elves who live in separate societies occasionally bad mouthing each other makes them monsters who deserve what they get.  I also get the sense that that it's okay to oppress the Dalish because of an imaginary threat to society if they're ever allowed to have any power (if you want a REAL real world racism equivalent I'm very familiar with this bull), despite their history painting them as some of the most passive people in Thedas.  Oh yeah, they invaded Orlais once, but apparently when they actually retaliate against being occupied it's terrible.  However, crushing their entire country for daring to retaliate is justified.

What I hope to see happen in DA:I or even Masked Empire is for the Dalish to play a role in winning the civil war for Empress.  If they can regain the Dales through a newly established relationship with Orlais they might have a better chance keeping it, especially with the Chantry crumbling from its former power.  And I imagine Ferelden would support having a buffer between them and Orlais.

And no one's discussed this at all, but if Arlathan is rediscovered, I wonder if it's possible to reestablish it.  It might be a bad idea for several reasons; there's likely some unspeakable horror in the place (it's almost mandatory -- even without magic involved there's no way there isn't a massive veil rip there, a very old one), and they'd be neighbors with the people who destroyed it in the first place, as well as the Qunari.  So even if the place itself could be reinhabited, the neighbors are the worst possible for a fledgling nation.  Still, I wonder, since I imagine a place that's been lost for ages would be empty real estate.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

No, its been called ethnic cleansing by the humans too. What we merely pointed out was that the Dalish and the original elven empire had only themselves to blame for their fall. They let all their neighbors be subsumed by mage supremacist blood magic slavers, until Tevinter was strong enough to destroy them.

Then they entered a more fragmented time period where countries were constantly consuming each other, and they put forth no effort to safeguard themselves.

Isolationism is not a valid strategy to keep oneself from being taken over.

So I guess we can ignore the fact that the elves fought the Magisters until their homeland was sunk into the ground?Or what about the time they allied with Andraste and her forces and helped cripple the Imperium for a short time?Or how about the fact that in regards to the Dales we have no proof of who invaded first aside from biased versions of the events and they were kicking Orlais' asses until the Chantry got involved?


Being isolationist is not a bad thing since if a country tells you to keep out or else then that's their right,also the dwarves are still standing strong despite not liking the surface world all that much so that disproves your assetion that being isolated isn't a valid strategy of protecting against invaders.

The elves only fought Tevinter after they were attacked. They didn't fight Tevinter when they subjugating all the other humans. The only reason Tevinter got as strong as they did was because the only other significant faction at that time, the elves, simply stood by and watched as they conquered everyone else.

The Dales in the second circumstances, after they formed the kingdom, switched back to isolationism again. There was nothing to persuade Orlais not to attack them. They went it solo which is why they lost.


Any student of real world history will tell you that isolationism doesn't protect you against countries set on conquest. Funnily enough, they don't care if you want to be isolationist.

[LobselVith8]

HiroVoid wrote...

I'm sure the Inquisition will be able to lead many daring changes that will drastically affect future games such as restoring the elves to a homeland, bringing mages and non-mages together happily, and the freedom of all slaves in Tevinter while holding off the latest Qunari invasion. Oh. And something about demons.

If the alternative to bringing about actual change with our choices is instead a narrative where our protagonist affects nothing but a restoration of the status quo, then I don't think Inquisition is going to be my cup of tea.

[Vandicus]

dragondreamer wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

Apparently it's also okay for dwarves to oppress their lower social classes because humans do it too.  But elves who live in separate societies occasionally bad mouthing each other makes them monsters who deserve what they get.  I also get the sense that that it's okay to oppress the Dalish because of an imaginary threat to society if they're ever allowed to have any power (if you want a REAL real world racism equivalent I'm very familiar with this bull), despite their history painting them as some of the most passive people in Thedas.  Oh yeah, they invaded Orlais once, but apparently when they actually retaliate against being occupied it's terrible.  However, crushing their entire country for daring to retaliate is justified.

What I hope to see happen in DA:I or even Masked Empire is for the Dalish to play a role in winning the civil war for Empress.  If they can regain the Dales through a newly established relationship with Orlais they might have a better chance keeping it, especially with the Chantry crumbling from its former power.  And I imagine Ferelden would support having a buffer between them and Orlais.

And no one's discussed this at all, but if Arlathan is rediscovered, I wonder if it's possible to reestablish it.  It might be a bad idea for several reasons; there's likely some unspeakable horror in the place (it's almost mandatory -- even without magic involved there's no way there isn't a massive veil rip there, a very old one), and they'd be neighbors with the people who destroyed it in the first place, as well as the Qunari.  So even if the place itself could be reinhabited, the neighbors are the worst possible for a fledgling nation.  Still, I wonder, since I imagine a place that's been lost for ages would be empty real estate.

Those are your words, not ours. We've criticized the Orlesian nobles. We've criticized the dwarven nobles. The only one who seems to be giving a pass to opressors and racists is you and cjones. 

As for the Dales and Orlais, from the military records, it seems pretty clear that the Dales were the aggressors, as only they had an army in enemy territory. That being said, its as fair for them to conquer Orlais as it is for Orlais to conquer them. Since the Dales had no friendly relations with other nations who might have objected to the Chantry violating its alleged neutrality, they had an Exalted March called on them. Tough luck for them, they decided to go it alone, they get no support since they have no friends or allies.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I'm sure the Inquisition will be able to lead many daring changes that will drastically affect future games such as restoring the elves to a homeland, bringing mages and non-mages together happily, and the freedom of all slaves in Tevinter while holding off the latest Qunari invasion. Oh. And something about demons.

If the alternative to bringing about actual change with our choices is instead a narrative where our protagonist affects nothing but a restoration of the status quo, then I don't think Inquisition is going to be my cup of tea.

I rather imagine the status quo of the last few centuries will entirely be shattered with DA:I, with most of the major powers essentially collapsing. I doubt we'll have absolute control over what happens next, though we'll probably be able to influence it. Ironically, substantial devestation to the population of the lower class(shortage of labor) is likely to increase the power of elves(as they're disproportionately lower class) and other serfs.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

No, its been called ethnic cleansing by the humans too. What we merely pointed out was that the Dalish and the original elven empire had only themselves to blame for their fall. They let all their neighbors be subsumed by mage supremacist blood magic slavers, until Tevinter was strong enough to destroy them.

Then they entered a more fragmented time period where countries were constantly consuming each other, and they put forth no effort to safeguard themselves.

Isolationism is not a valid strategy to keep oneself from being taken over.

So I guess we can ignore the fact that the elves fought the Magisters until their homeland was sunk into the ground?Or what about the time they allied with Andraste and her forces and helped cripple the Imperium for a short time?Or how about the fact that in regards to the Dales we have no proof of who invaded first aside from biased versions of the events and they were kicking Orlais' asses until the Chantry got involved?


Being isolationist is not a bad thing since if a country tells you to keep out or else then that's their right,also the dwarves are still standing strong despite not liking the surface world all that much so that disproves your assetion that being isolated isn't a valid strategy of protecting against invaders.

The elves only fought Tevinter after they were attacked. They didn't fight Tevinter when they subjugating all the other humans. The only reason Tevinter got as strong as they did was because the only other significant faction at that time, the elves, simply stood by and watched as they conquered everyone else.

The Dales in the second circumstances, after they formed the kingdom, switched back to isolationism again. There was nothing to persuade Orlais not to attack them. They went it solo which is why they lost.


Any student of real world history will tell you that isolationism doesn't protect you against countries set on conquest. Funnily enough, they don't care if you want to be isolationist.

They still fought Tevinter to the point where the Magisters were forced to sink Arlathan into the sea,and it's not the elves' job to police Thedas since everyone else was resisting Tevinter at the time including several tribes.If someone is dumb enough to trespass on  a person's property despite the fact that was a big red sign that said "Beware of Dog" and then that person gets bit who is at fault:the property owner or the person with the bite mark?

You fault the Dalish for being isolationist yet ignore the times where they helped everyone against the Imperium and the Third,Fourth and Fifth Blights.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Why is it called ethnic cleansing when the elves do it but smart military strategy when the humans do it?

Umm... what? When humans do it it's called genocide and ethnic cleasing. If the elves wanted to do it in the Dales, it would also be called genocide and ethnic cleansing. 

That's not what I've seen from this thread,apparently it's sound strategy to invade a land and then force it's people to submit everything including their heritage and culture while making those who refuse live as nomads.However when the Dalish contemplate doing the same thing then all of a sudden it's wrong and ethnic cleansing.

Apparently it's also okay for dwarves to oppress their lower social classes because humans do it too.  But elves who live in separate societies occasionally bad mouthing each other makes them monsters who deserve what they get.  I also get the sense that that it's okay to oppress the Dalish because of an imaginary threat to society if they're ever allowed to have any power (if you want a REAL real world racism equivalent I'm very familiar with this bull), despite their history painting them as some of the most passive people in Thedas.  Oh yeah, they invaded Orlais once, but apparently when they actually retaliate against being occupied it's terrible.  However, crushing their entire country for daring to retaliate is justified.

What I hope to see happen in DA:I or even Masked Empire is for the Dalish to play a role in winning the civil war for Empress.  If they can regain the Dales through a newly established relationship with Orlais they might have a better chance keeping it, especially with the Chantry crumbling from its former power.  And I imagine Ferelden would support having a buffer between them and Orlais.

And no one's discussed this at all, but if Arlathan is rediscovered, I wonder if it's possible to reestablish it.  It might be a bad idea for several reasons; there's likely some unspeakable horror in the place (it's almost mandatory -- even without magic involved there's no way there isn't a massive veil rip there, a very old one), and they'd be neighbors with the people who destroyed it in the first place, as well as the Qunari.  So even if the place itself could be reinhabited, the neighbors are the worst possible for a fledgling nation.  Still, I wonder, since I imagine a place that's been lost for ages would be empty real estate.

Those are your words, not ours. We've criticized the Orlesian nobles. We've criticized the dwarven nobles. The only one who seems to be giving a pass to opressors and racists is you and cjones. 

As for the Dales and Orlais, from the military records, it seems pretty clear that the Dales were the aggressors, as only they had an army in enemy territory. That being said, its as fair for them to conquer Orlais as it is for Orlais to conquer them. Since the Dales had no friendly relations with other nations who might have objected to the Chantry violating its alleged neutrality, they had an Exalted March called on them. Tough luck for them, they decided to go it alone, they get no support since they have no friends or allies.

Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...
They still fought Tevinter to the point where the Magisters were forced to sink Arlathan into the sea,and it's not the elves' job to police Thedas since everyone else was resisting Tevinter at the time including several tribes.If someone is dumb enough to trespass on  a person's property despite the fact that was a big red sign that said "Beware of Dog" and then that person gets bit who is at fault:the property owner or the person with the bite mark?

You fault the Dalish for being isolationist yet ignore the times where they helped everyone against the Imperium and the Third,Fourth and Fifth Blights.

Its not their job from a moral perspective, but from a practical perspective they had every opportunity to stop the evil empire, who was cruelly oppressing humans for centuries before setting their sights on the Dalish I might add, from growing strong enough to defeat them. The elves let Tevinter win. They chose the course of action that inevitably results in defeat, because they ignore their power.

They did stop being isolationist at times. The second fall, was because they returned to isolationism.

Every time they've had a kingdom, they pursued isolationism, and then subsequently fell. That's the reason they lose. That's the reason they'll keep on losing if they don't wise up.

[General TSAR]

The Dalish are nothing more than worthless vagabonds, nothing can boast their image.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
They still fought Tevinter to the point where the Magisters were forced to sink Arlathan into the sea,and it's not the elves' job to police Thedas since everyone else was resisting Tevinter at the time including several tribes.If someone is dumb enough to trespass on  a person's property despite the fact that was a big red sign that said "Beware of Dog" and then that person gets bit who is at fault:the property owner or the person with the bite mark?

You fault the Dalish for being isolationist yet ignore the times where they helped everyone against the Imperium and the Third,Fourth and Fifth Blights.

Its not their job from a moral perspective, but from a practical perspective they had every opportunity to stop the evil empire, who was cruelly oppressing humans for centuries before setting their sights on the Dalish I might add, from growing strong enough to defeat them. The elves let Tevinter win. They chose the course of action that inevitably results in defeat, because they ignore their power.

They did stop being isolationist at times. The second fall, was because they returned to isolationism.

Every time they've had a kingdom, they pursued isolationism, and then subsequently fell. That's the reason they lose. That's the reason they'll keep on losing if they don't wise up.

They let Tevinter win?How is that their fault?The Magisters of that time had the power of the Old Gods behind them so what the hell were the elves supposed to do?They still would've gotten beat and enslaved regardless.I don't understand this notion that it's wrong for the elves to keep to themselves and leave everyone else be and that they deserve to be treated the way they are because of it.Not everyone likes being around other people

Modifié par cjones91, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:56 .

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
They still fought Tevinter to the point where the Magisters were forced to sink Arlathan into the sea,and it's not the elves' job to police Thedas since everyone else was resisting Tevinter at the time including several tribes.If someone is dumb enough to trespass on  a person's property despite the fact that was a big red sign that said "Beware of Dog" and then that person gets bit who is at fault:the property owner or the person with the bite mark?

You fault the Dalish for being isolationist yet ignore the times where they helped everyone against the Imperium and the Third,Fourth and Fifth Blights.

Its not their job from a moral perspective, but from a practical perspective they had every opportunity to stop the evil empire, who was cruelly oppressing humans for centuries before setting their sights on the Dalish I might add, from growing strong enough to defeat them. The elves let Tevinter win. They chose the course of action that inevitably results in defeat, because they ignore their power.

They did stop being isolationist at times. The second fall, was because they returned to isolationism.

Every time they've had a kingdom, they pursued isolationism, and then subsequently fell. That's the reason they lose. That's the reason they'll keep on losing if they don't wise up.

They let Tevinter win?How is that their fault?The Magisters of that time had the power of the Old Gods behind them so what the hell were the elves supposed to do?They still would've gotten beat ad enslaved regardless.I don't understand this notion that it's wrong for the elves to keep to themselves and leave everyone and they deserve to be treated the way they are because of it.Not everyone likes being around other people

The Tevinter empire was building for centuries. That's hundreds of years. The Tevinter Empire did not start as rulers of all humanity. The elves, stood by, and let the Tevinter enslave the other humans. There were 214 years between the mages trying to take over, and then invading the elves.

I'm not saying its morally wrong to ignore your neighbors being made slaves, I'm saying its idiotic. That guy running around town shooting everyone, is probably a problem. You might just want to try and stop that instead of waiting for him to come to you.