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[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

So the werewolves weren't oppressed. So the rightful Fereldan citizens traveling through a Fereldan forest did not have their rights violated when they were threatened off the presmises. So the villages and merchants weren't terrorized and killed by Vellana.

[dragondreamer]

Vandicus wrote...
Those are your words, not ours. We've criticized the Orlesian nobles. We've criticized the dwarven nobles. The only one who seems to be giving a pass to opressors and racists is you and cjones. 

The Dalish don't oppress anyone, nor have they ever, so this statement makes no sense.  And you haven't been watching the thread closely.

As for the Dales and Orlais, from the military records, it seems pretty clear that the Dales were the aggressors, as only they had an army in enemy territory. That being said, its as fair for them to conquer Orlais as it is for Orlais to conquer them. Since the Dales had no friendly relations with other nations who might have objected to the Chantry violating its alleged neutrality, they had an Exalted March called on them. Tough luck for them, they decided to go it alone, they get no support since they have no friends or allies.

The military records as we know them aren't terribly clear, but we do know that the Orlesian Chantry was sending templars into the Dales against the wishes of the Dalish.  In any real world situation when a foreign country sends an occupying force into your country without permission, that's seen as an act of war.  Nothing justifies what was done to the Dalish, and certainly justifying it because you disagree with their culture or think they're snobs is monsterous.

I realize some of you are just deadset against the Dalish with a personal bias of some sort, so most of this isn't going to get through.  But most of the victim blaming that's gone on in this thread just makes me think of this.

[Medhia Nox]

@Vandicus: My guess? It's okay, because some elves in the distant past used to live where the humans now live.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

So the werewolves weren't oppressed. So the rightful Fereldan citizens traveling through a Fereldan forest did not have their rights violated when they were threatened off the presmises. So the villages and merchants weren't terrorized and killed by Vellana.

Again that's not oppression.....oppression is using social,political,or economic power to control people.For example Russia in the late 1900's was a oppressive country and people were murdered if they spoke out against the government.

[Vandicus]

dragondreamer wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Those are your words, not ours. We've criticized the Orlesian nobles. We've criticized the dwarven nobles. The only one who seems to be giving a pass to opressors and racists is you and cjones. 

The Dalish don't oppress anyone, nor have they ever, so this statement makes no sense.  And you haven't been watching the thread closely.

As for the Dales and Orlais, from the military records, it seems pretty clear that the Dales were the aggressors, as only they had an army in enemy territory. That being said, its as fair for them to conquer Orlais as it is for Orlais to conquer them. Since the Dales had no friendly relations with other nations who might have objected to the Chantry violating its alleged neutrality, they had an Exalted March called on them. Tough luck for them, they decided to go it alone, they get no support since they have no friends or allies.

The military records as we know them aren't terribly clear, but we do know that the Orlesian Chantry was sending templars into the Dales against the wishes of the Dalish.  In any real world situation when a foreign country sends an occupying force into your country without permission, that's seen as an act of war.  Nothing justifies what was done to the Dalish, and certainly justifying it because you disagree with their culture or think they're snobs is monsterous.

I realize some of you are just deadset against the Dalish with a personal bias of some sort, so most of this isn't going to get through.  But most of the victim blaming that's gone on in this thread just makes me think of this.

You said yourself that you were giving the dwarves a free pass. No one else said that. So the statement makes perfect sense. Unless you want to admit you were putting words in your opponents' mouths to strawman them?


OK. Congratulations, you agree with us that the Dalish people didn't deserve to be oppressed and have various forms of genocide committed against them.

Now we can discuss why the Dalish lost. Why they will contiue to lose.

Where's your moral indignation about the Tevinter Imperium taking over far more human kingdoms and oppressing and dispersing their people btw? It was also the folly of those kingdoms in allowing an abomination like the Tevinter Imperium to exist. That's why all other modern human nations are opposed to Tevinter. 

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I see the reality of Thedas being filled with kingdoms that are intolerant towards the Dalish and the elven religion, and with templars hunt them down. I'm not seeing why that point continually gets glossed over with people who conveniently forget how elves, mages, and heathens are treated by Andrastians.

If the other nations are intolerant of the Dalish, it's because the Dalish have given them no reason to be otherwise.  And the load about Templars hunting Dalish is hogwash.  The Templars don't give a fig about the Dalish.  The Templars hunt Mages, regardless of race.  They aren't picking on those poor stupid Dalish out of some racial or religious bias.  Without harboring mages, it is unlikely roving bands of savages who are doing a passing job of wiping themselves out would ever get a visit from the Templar order.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The people who encroach their clans seem to be templars, who pursue them, or even Andrastians threatening the Dalish to convert can happen, as it did with the Sabrae clan. Humans even tried to burn down Velanna's clan. I don't see why that makes the Dalish bad guys.

Really.  The Human Warden was a Templar?  Or a Missionary?  Or trying to burn down the clan?
How about Hawke?  Which of the things you listed was Hawke?  Was the Champion there on a mission of racial intolerance?  Or Duncan.  Clearly Duncan was just an elf hating sociopath, looking for an excuse to kill him some Knife Ears.

Or Brother Genetivi.  Here's your evil Chantry man, in the flesh.  So which of those terrible Chantry sins was he there to visit upon the Dalish?  Baby eating, perhaps?  Urinating on their totems?  Maybe he was going to sacrifice their Hallah to the Maker.  Surely, such a man, serving such an evil organization, was up to no good near a Dalish camp.

No?

Yet in each case, the visitor received unwarranted hostility, if not outright racism, from the Dalish.  Racism that extend to their own people, should someone dare to mingle with humans.

The Dalish can not survive by starting every contact with "Go away, shemlen, or we'll kill you."

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.

The Dales are an absurd goal.  You keep demanding that the Dalish should get that specific chunk of land back.  The chunk of land that was stolen from someone else to give to them, and which hasn't been theirs for longer than they lived there.  A land surrounded by Andrastian nations, who you claim will find it impossible to allow them to exist peacefully.

So what sane reason would they have for wanting that particular hunk of land back?  There are no great Elven libraries there, or any more lost elf culture than they'd find anywhere else.  Given the neigborhood and the current inhabitants, It's probably the least suitable chunk of land outside of Tevinter.  On the flip side, we have at least three countries that deviate from the White Chantry.  Nevarra has it's own decidedly un-Chantry practices, and Rivain is about as un-Chantry as you can find.  We even know that at one time, there were rumors of the Dalish considering settling on Llomerryn.  And sadly we already know how much support Ferelden would realistically offer to the Elves if push came to shove.

So what is it about the Dales that makes the Dalish such idiots?  Just because they were gifted a plot of land once doesn't mean they have some divine right to it for the rest of time.  If they can take it, it's theirs for as long as they can hold it, but they don't deserve it until they can take it.  And the moment they lose it, it isn't theirs anymore.  There are potential allies, and other places to live in Thedas.  The Dalish simply refuse to even attempt to cultivate or consider any of them.  They'd rather wander from place to place, doing their best to ****** off or kill anyone who gets close, regardless of intention, with predictable results.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

So the werewolves weren't oppressed. So the rightful Fereldan citizens traveling through a Fereldan forest did not have their rights violated when they were threatened off the presmises. So the villages and merchants weren't terrorized and killed by Vellana.

Again that's not oppression.....oppression is using social,political,or economic power to control people.For example Russia in the late 1900's was a oppressive country and people were murdered if they spoke out against the government.

You didn't list physical force, and then used physical force as an example. Funnily enough, the cases I've listed all include Dalish elves using physical force to deprive people of their rights.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Vandicus: My guess? It's okay, because some elves in the distant past used to live where the humans now live.

Humans were'nt native to Thedas unlike the elves.However let's assume that some do think it's okay for the elves to take the Dales,in their minds it would be giving those that occupy a taste of their own medicine.But of course Faerunner's post yesterday would ring true had the roles been reversed and the humans were the ones who were trying to take their land.The same people who condemn the elves would support the rebel humans.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I pointed out the Dalish are criminals according to Chantry law, because of their culture and religious beliefs.

So is Tevinter magisters, yet Danarius wields power in Kirkwall. The Chasind fleeing the blight aren't rounded up and forced to be converted on the spot in DAO.

You don't see Ferelden launching religious wars of conquest into the Korcari wilds or up into the Frosbacks nor Orlais into Orzammar and Kal-Sharok. You don't see Antiva and Anderfels attacking Tevinter.
The Rivaini andrastian nobility and chantry has a peaceful coexistance with the seers (to the point where they were allowed to recruit out of circles!), their followers and the Qunari and frequently does business with people following the Imperial Chantry (illegal in andrastian countries as well).

In Nevarra there's an entire order of independent mages in positions of power despite Chantry law.

Chantry law means precisely nothing if it gets in the way of peoples interests.

What all these minorities succeds in, where the Dalish fail, is that they have managed to make sure that their independence is in their larger neighbours interests.
The Frostbacks and the Korcari wilds are completely and utterly unattractive to conquerors, The dwarves provide a crucial service and are respected craftsmen. Rivain is a powderkeg noone wants to disturb. The Qunari and Tevinter are too damn powerful to touch. The deathmages allies of the nobility.

If the Dalish can find a similar safeguard, their future is assured. They need to make friends. Because they will make enemies. That much is inevitable.

But if they make friends with their neighbours, Chantry law will, like always, mean nothing.

And no, this does not mean giving up their culture. It'll have to adapt, yes. But it has done that anyways.
I sincerely doubt that "The loss of the Dales" was an integral part of their culture when they formed the Dales. The dalish of today have no more retained the Culture of the Dales than the Chantry has retained the uncorrupted teachings of Andraste.

Culture only lives in the present.

Modifié par Sir JK, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:07 .

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: Zathrian didn't oppress his own people?

I'll have to tell Athras he can enter the forest to go look for his wife.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Vandicus: My guess? It's okay, because some elves in the distant past used to live where the humans now live.

Humans were'nt native to Thedas unlike the elves.However let's assume that some do think it's okay for the elves to take the Dales,in their minds it would be giving those that occupy a taste of their own medicine.But of course Faerunner's post yesterday would ring true had the roles been reversed and the humans were the ones who were trying to take their land.The same people who condemn the elves would support the rebel humans.

I'll repeat what I've said before. Sure, go ahead, take the Dales from the Orlesians, if you do so without ethnic genocide or oppressive policies, you'll be the most morally superior nation on Thedas. If you do so with those, you'll be about par for the course.

Either way, unless they drop their isolationist attitudes, they'll lose them again.

Speaking of which, you criticize our ability to support rebel elves, but I've supported the City Elves. The City Elves are people trying to make real progress. The Dalish are just whiny vagabonds who also are racist against City Elves.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

So the werewolves weren't oppressed. So the rightful Fereldan citizens traveling through a Fereldan forest did not have their rights violated when they were threatened off the presmises. So the villages and merchants weren't terrorized and killed by Vellana.

Again that's not oppression.....oppression is using social,political,or economic power to control people.For example Russia in the late 1900's was a oppressive country and people were murdered if they spoke out against the government.

You didn't list physical force, and then used physical force as an example. Funnily enough, the cases I've listed all include Dalish elves using physical force to deprive people of their rights.

Your example was flawed from the get go,it would have some merit if the Dalish took over a major human settlement and then controlled the people there with threats of violence while making them do things they would never do.However aside from some run ins with humans the Dalish are not oppressive at all,hostile at times perhaps but not oppressive.

[Green-Goose8]

(hanven't read all of the forum so i don't know if someones suggested it) but hasn't anyone wondered if the elves were to blame for the 1st elven/human war, the humans came to thedas probably fleeing from a natural disaster and so the elves didn't like the "invasion" since they lost there immortality.The only way to defeat the elves was to resort to blood magic and thus became the tevinter magisters and the enslavement of the elves (i might be speaking hogwash)

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: Zathrian didn't oppress his own people?

I'll have to tell Athras he can enter the forest to go look for his wife.

So if a police force warns people to stay away from a place because there might be a serial killer hiding there it's oppressive?

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: Dude, seriously?

Are the police force the serial killers?

[Vandicus]

Green-Goose8 wrote...

(hanven't read all of the forum so i don't know if someones suggested it) but hasn't anyone wondered if the elves were to blame for the 1st elven/human war, the humans came to thedas probably fleeing from a natural disaster and so the elves didn't like the "invasion" since they lost there immortality.The only way to defeat the elves was to resort to blood magic and thus became the tevinter magisters and the enslavement of the elves (i might be speaking hogwash)

The lore states that basically.

1. Humans show up.
2. Elves begin trade for a while, then retreat into isolationism.
3. Magisters seize control of Tevinter.
4. Tevinter spends the next 214 years enslaving other nearby humans.
5. They then go after the elves.


The elves being the most powerful force on Thedas for centuries, yet failing to do anything to secure that power, is what makes them incompetent.

[Angrywolves]

I just know if my Inquisitor can help the dalish get the dales back I will and deal with any consequences from that good or bad as they appear.

[Hellion Rex]

Green-Goose8 wrote...

(hanven't read all of the forum so i don't know if someones suggested it) but hasn't anyone wondered if the elves were to blame for the 1st elven/human war, the humans came to thedas probably fleeing from a natural disaster and so the elves didn't like the "invasion" since they lost there immortality.The only way to defeat the elves was to resort to blood magic and thus became the tevinter magisters and the enslavement of the elves (i might be speaking hogwash)

We unfortunately lack a lot of information, but what we do have suggests that when humans began to encroach, the Arlathan elves closed their borders, all until Tevinter sank them into the earth.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: Dude, seriously?

Are the police force the serial killers?

No,however just like Zatharian the police would be doing their best to keep people safe.If Anthras went to go look for his wife then he would be in extreme danger of getting attacked by the werewolves.

[BlankPage]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

*Achem* What? You're not serious right? 

Zathrian, a keeper of his clan, had his daughter raped and his son killed. By humans. What does he do in return? Turns the entire village of where those men came from into werewolves for the rest of eternity. Did those guilty deserve their fate? Probably. Did those innocent do anything wrong? 

Google defines Oppression as "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control." Would turning an entire village of innocents into werewolves qualify to you as "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control." Because it does to me. But, what about the other example? Velanna? Her sister was taken by darkspawn. She blames humans (Wrongly) and beings to murder any human that walks on the road near her clan. HOW is that not cruel and wrong to you? Literally killing innocents. Even if it were true and humans had taken her sister (Which is totally wasn't) still wouldn't authorize her to kill any passing humans. 

Or! Maybe we should talk about Tamlen! Who suggest killing three humans for simply being near him. Dalish never opress! No way! <_<

[cjones91]

BlankPage wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Oh that's rich..... who have the elves oppressed?And just like my earlier post about the subject you are using a biased version of the events to lay all of the blame on the Dalish when it could've happened in a number of ways.

 Zathrian, Velanna, random elves in the Dalish storyline, to answer your question about oppressors. I can list individuals from every race in Thedas who've oppressed people. I'm not giving any of them a free pass.

I'm blaming the Dalish for being incompetent, not for immoral acts of conquest. They lost because of poor decision making in thinking that ignoring Tevinter was the best way to deal with them. Of course they'd lose the war. Tevinter had as much time as they wanted to prepare, since the elves would never attack them. The elves waited until the evil mage supremacist slavers were ready to destroy them. Its idiotic to fight on the enemy's terms, but the elves gave them centuries to prepare.

If your only examples of oppression are of characters who never did anything to oppress others then you don't know the meaning of the word.If a elf does'nt agree with the Keeper then he/she is free to leave and fiind another clan,if the Dalish were oppressors like you claim then that would'nt happen.

*Achem* What? You're not serious right? 

Zathrian, a keeper of his clan, had his daughter raped and his son killed. By humans. What does he do in return? Turns the entire village of where those men came from into werewolves for the rest of eternity. Did those guilty deserve their fate? Probably. Did those innocent do anything wrong? 

Google defines Oppression as "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control." Would turning an entire village of innocents into werewolves qualify to you as "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control." Because it does to me. But, what about the other example? Velanna? Her sister was taken by darkspawn. She blames humans (Wrongly) and beings to murder any human that walks on the road near her clan. HOW is that not cruel and wrong to you? Literally killing innocents. Even if it were true and humans had taken her sister (Which is totally wasn't) still wouldn't authorize her to kill any passing humans. 

Or! Maybe we should talk about Tamlen! Who suggest killing three humans for simply being near him. Dalish never opress! No way! <_<

So you have three dalish elves who fit the technical term of oppression....big deal.Vandicus implied the Dalish as a whole are oppressors not just a small number of them.To me oppression is taking over a town and turning it into a slave camp.Oppression to me is what cults do where they control their followers through threats of phyiscal harm or death if they try to leave,that is oppression.

[HiroVoid]

From what we can gather, each Dalish tribe tends to have different attitudes and ways of doing things, so it's pretty impossible to label all the Dalish as much as anything aside from Nomadic and other terms.

To me oppression is taking over a town and turning it into a slave camp.

Turning a town into werewolf monsters for generations to be passed down to their offspring would probably be a similar comparison then.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:33 .

[TK514]

cjones91 wrote...
So you have three dalish elves who fit the technical term of oppression....big deal.Vandicus implied the Dalish as a whole are oppressors not just a small number of them.To me oppression is taking over a town and turning it into a slave camp.Oppression to me is what cults do where they control their followers through threats of phyiscal harm or death if they try to leave,that is oppression.

It is facinating to watch you change the goalposts.

Modifié par TK514, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:36 .

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
So you have three dalish elves who fit the technical term of oppression....big deal.Vandicus implied the Dalish as a whole are oppressors not just a small number of them.To me oppression is taking over a town and turning it into a slave camp.Oppression to me is what cults do where they control their followers through threats of phyiscal harm or death if they try to leave,that is oppression.

It is facinating to watch you change the goalposts.

He lost me an hour ago.

[cjones91]

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
So you have three dalish elves who fit the technical term of oppression....big deal.Vandicus implied the Dalish as a whole are oppressors not just a small number of them.To me oppression is taking over a town and turning it into a slave camp.Oppression to me is what cults do where they control their followers through threats of phyiscal harm or death if they try to leave,that is oppression.

It is facinating to watch you change the goalposts.

How am I changing goalposts?I'm not the one who claimed all Dalish were oppressive and tried to bring three weak examples of that being the case.