1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Fortlowe wrote...

It's not a dream if it's true. It's a goal. Who wouldn't want themselves and everyone they love to live forever.

I agree, our modern day government have been remiss in their lack of effort to find the fountain of youth.

[Medhia Nox]

Darth Brotarian: Which is exactly why they're getting what they're asking for.

If they don't want to "play the game" - then they'll have to accept the consequences for bowing out.

Is that how it "should" be? Probably not. It would be nice if everyone could just live according to their own desires, but it's also naive to think that people have no vested interest in securing "their own desires" by crushing the desires of others.

While I'm anti-Dalish from a story perspective - any character I would play, would never simply strike out at the Dalish for kicks. I left Merrill sitting in her house staring at a mirror precisely because I have no interest in the Dalish - seems that I saved at least a Keeper, and at most an entire Dalish clan.

I find the Dalish to be a short sighted, self-centered minority so obsessed with being a minority that they're alienating themselves from ever being able to grab any real power.

You don't want to play by the majorities rules? Good on ya. But don't be so naive as to think the world bends to "what should be". Note: Maybe Thedas does... it's a fantasy world, but that's on the writers and not supported by reality in any way.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 janvier 2014 - 07:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

I'd like to see them actually follow the last two tenets of Vir Tanadhal. It seems the Dalish know how to be unflexible, but not how to work with other elves or humans. 

Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible.

Psst... you mentioned the same thing twice .

More seriously, the permanent settlement in Antiva or Rivain (it's not exactly clear where) is perhaps an even betetr example. Since it shows us Dalish that has managed to get along with their neighbours well enough to be able to stay in one spot.

Which all helps to show us that not even the Dalish are one and the same everywhere. Which is great

Modifié par Sir JK, 19 janvier 2014 - 07:09 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I'd like to see them actually follow the last two tenets of Vir Tanadhal. It seems the Dalish know how to be unflexible, but not how to work with other elves or humans. 

Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible.

Some Dalish can be flexible(helps when the entire world is at stake I suppose). Most aren't. I'm not exactly holding my breath expecting that to change, but when and if they acquire a new nation, they'll need to be more flexible than they were the last two times.

[cjones91]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I'd like to see them actually follow the last two tenets of Vir Tanadhal. It seems the Dalish know how to be unflexible, but not how to work with other elves or humans. 

Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible.

Shh...best not to ruin his dream of the Dalish hating humans.Afterall those examples of the Dalish helping people mean nothing because they're oppressing racists who go out of their way to pick on those poor humans for the lulz.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Psst... you mentioned the same thing twice .

Well, they signed the treaty, and stayed true to it. 

Sir JK wrote...

More seriously, the permanent settlement in Antiva or Rivain (it's not exactly clear where) is perhaps an even betetr example. Since it shows us Dalish that has managed to get along with their neighbours well enough to be able to stay in one spot.

Which all helps to show us that not even the Dalish are one and the same everywhere. Which is great

The clans are all different. Zevran mentions that the Dalish in Antiva are more violent than their Ferelden counterparts. An Antivan Dalish mage. 

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The clans are all different. Zevran mentions that the Dalish in Antiva are more violent than their Ferelden counterparts. An Antivan Dalish mage. 

Cool, I hadn't seen that one. I guess the permanent settlement is in Rivain then.

Modifié par Sir JK, 19 janvier 2014 - 07:14 .

[Medhia Nox]

So not even the different clans can agree... they're doomed.

[Fast Jimmy]

Vandicus wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

It's not a dream if it's true. It's a goal. Who wouldn't want themselves and everyone they love to live forever.

I agree, our modern day government have been remiss in their lack of effort to find the fountain of youth.

And if I were to say that the reason we don't have immortality IRL is because of racial intermixing, would I not sound incredibly racist? 

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible. 

The treaties, again, don't count. It would be insane for the Dalish to choose their own extermination at the hands of the Darkspawn. And they certainly don't get bonus points for helping to prevent the Apocalypse in the Fifth Blight, the same way that we don't give Orlais a gold star for sending in chevalier to Ferelden with GWs. 

[Vandicus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So not even the different clans can agree... they're doomed.

Vir Adahlen, the Way of the Forest: together we are stronger than the one

Ironically enough, the third tenet of their philosophy which they generally do not follow. Especially in regards to city elves.

Modifié par Vandicus, 19 janvier 2014 - 07:18 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And if I were to say that the reason we don't have immortality IRL is because of racial intermixing, would I not sound incredibly racist? 

It's apparently not racist if you say it's been part of your culture for millenia, with no primary sources to back it up beside folklore. 

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible. 

Some Dalish can be flexible(helps when the entire world is at stake I suppose). Most aren't. I'm not exactly holding my breath expecting that to change, but when and if they acquire a new nation, they'll need to be more flexible than they were the last two times. 

And you know that most Dalish aren't how, exactly? Multiple clans aided in the Fifth Blight (if The Warden asks for their aid), Velanna's clan talks positively about her being in the company of humans, and even the Sabrae clan cautions the templars who tortured one of their da'len hunters to back off, instead of trying to kill them immediately for torturing a child. I'm seeing flexibility so far.

[Fortlowe]

Vandicus wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

It's not a dream if it's true. It's a goal. Who wouldn't want themselves and everyone they love to live forever.

I agree, our modern day government have been remiss in their lack of effort to find the fountain of youth.

 

The lore says elves live longer with diminishing human contact. To me this lends credence to at least the elven belief if not the reality of immortality. Regardless, increased human contact, benign though it may be, increases the likelihood of human elf coupling, which dimminishes the elven species by default.

For the elves, PR, doesn't matter. They cannot intergrate. Isolation has proven ineffective. They can continue to be oppressed and eventually fade away entirely, or they can attempt to retake Thedas and likely be wiped out quickly, or possibly win. Which, if they did win, then they would have to oppress their former oppressors or eradicate them entirely. 

Middle ground is a slow death.

[Medhia Nox]

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The clans are all different. Zevran mentions that the Dalish in Antiva are more violent than their Ferelden counterparts. An Antivan Dalish mage. 

Cool, I hadn't seen that one. I guess the permanent settlement is in Rivain then. 

It's bugged dialogue. He's supposed to say: "We have Dalish up in Antiva City, though they're much more violent I hear."

As for the settlement in Rivain, Gaider said they have a semi-permanent settlement in the city of Llomerryn.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the treaty with the Wardens, the adoption and support of the historical Aveline the Knight, the Dalish aiding The Warden against the Fifth Blight, and the Sabrae clan allowing Feynriel into the group show that the Dalish can be flexible. 

Some Dalish can be flexible(helps when the entire world is at stake I suppose). Most aren't. I'm not exactly holding my breath expecting that to change, but when and if they acquire a new nation, they'll need to be more flexible than they were the last two times. 

And you know that most Dalish aren't how, exactly? Multiple clans aided in the Fifth Blight (if The Warden asks for their aid), Velanna's clan talks positively about her being in the company of humans, and even the Sabrae clan cautions the templars who tortured one of their da'len hunters to back off, instead of trying to kill them immediately for torturing a child. I'm seeing flexibility so far.

Fifth Blight is about protecting themselves. They live in Fereldan too.

The Second Blight, when the elves weren't immediately threatened, they watched humans die.
When the Tevinter Imperium rose, they watched humans be enslaved.

Track record seems to be that the elves look after their own, well excluding city elves according to codexes(original Dalish codexes from DA:O). They generally don't go out of their way to build positive relations with neighbors.

Not all clans are inflexible. When they formed a nation the last two times they demonstrated impractical degrees of unflexibility. Marethari, the leader of the Sabrae clan, came across as substantially more sensible then the blacksmith or the camp guards, who were both very aggressive towards Hawke. I don't think their ability to avoid hostilities with Kirkwall was a result of the clan's general population being particularly level-headed.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

That's because the Qun makes no preferences towards race,everyone is equal in Qunari society except for mages.

[Fortlowe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

It's not a dream if it's true. It's a goal. Who wouldn't want themselves and everyone they love to live forever.

I agree, our modern day government have been remiss in their lack of effort to find the fountain of youth.

And if I were to say that the reason we don't have immortality IRL is because of racial intermixing, would I not sound incredibly racist? 

Not if it's true. Just like it's not sexist to say men areon average physically stronger than women (that women put up with us proves a far more profound, deeper strength, but that's a tangent). If elven immortality by lack of human contact is a fact, then regardless of how one may feel about it, it is just so. 

[Vandicus]

Fortlowe wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

It's not a dream if it's true. It's a goal. Who wouldn't want themselves and everyone they love to live forever.

I agree, our modern day government have been remiss in their lack of effort to find the fountain of youth.

 

The lore says elves live longer with diminishing human contact. To me this lends credence to at least the elven belief if not the reality of immortality. Regardless, increased human contact, benign though it may be, increases the likelihood of human elf coupling, which dimminishes the elven species by default.

For the elves, PR, doesn't matter. They cannot intergrate. Isolation has proven ineffective. They can continue to be oppressed and eventually fade away entirely, or they can attempt to retake Thedas and likely be wiped out quickly, or possibly win. Which, if they did win, then they would have to oppress their former oppressors or eradicate them entirely. 

Middle ground is a slow death.

Why can't they integrate, and why must their rule be oppressive? I imagine the average human in Thedas(majority population) would love to not be a serf or slave. If the elves took over and did away with feudalism that'd be a significant step up for the majority of the population.

As for integration, there's nothing forcing elves to marry humans.

In terms of mixed breeds vs being one of the five major ethnicities talked about today, the five major ethnicities have actually grown in total number(though not proportionally) in integrated societies. 5 million elves out of a hundred million people is still more elves than 2 million elves out of 10 million people.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's bugged dialogue. He's supposed to say: "We have Dalish up in Antiva City, though they're much more violent I hear."

As for the settlement in Rivain, Gaider said they have a semi-permanent settlement in the city of Llomerryn.

Ah.

And yes I know Gaider said that... Isabela said opposite ingame however, so I'm not sure what to go on.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

That's because the Qun makes no preferences towards race,everyone is equal in Qunari society except for mages.

They aren't all equal. They're all specific units with very specific rules and privileges. The Arishok is not the equal of a Sten.

[Fast Jimmy]

Not if it's true. Just like it's not sexist to say men areon average physically stronger than women (that women put up with us proves a far more profound, deeper strength, but that's a tangent). If elven immortality by lack of human contact is a fact, then regardless of how one may feel about it, it is just so. 

Yet there is zero evidence of that "fact."

The lifespan differential between elves in the Alienage and the Dalish is only what can be accounted for living in a sewer versus living in the open and getting plenty of exercise. As per David Gaider.

Nothing in the past 3,000 years of history even HINTS at elves being apart from humans increasing their lifespans by even a year, despite them having a few examples of entire generations worth of elves living apart from humans.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 janvier 2014 - 07:36 .

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

That's because the Qun makes no preferences towards race,everyone is equal in Qunari society except for mages.

They aren't all equal. They're all specific units with very specific rules and privileges. The Arishok is not the equal of a Sten.

There are roles but everyone is given a purpose.For example a person with nothing to lose can fiind something of worth by joining Qunari society.They don't discriminate based on race or any sort of background(unless you are a mage).