1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

True enough. And given the Qunari's meticulous eugenics practices, it is of interest to me if the elves are not already beginning to regain said immortality within Qunari society. If not, then maybe elven immortality is only a legend or the human Qunari are numerous enough to continue to diminish the immortal trait (perhaps purposefully). If so the the elven influence within Qunari society may be far more profound than we have been led to believen

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

That's because the Qun makes no preferences towards race,everyone is equal in Qunari society except for mages.

They aren't all equal. They're all specific units with very specific rules and privileges. The Arishok is not the equal of a Sten.

There are roles but everyone is given a purpose.For example a person with nothing to lose can fiind something of worth by joining Qunari society.They don't discriminate based on race or any sort of background(unless you are a mage).

Slaves have a purpose. Now some people apparently enjoy life living in an assigned role. That the Qunari want to assign everyone else a role too, means that I consider them a pretty big threat to the people of Thedas. On a side note, I still find their culture the most interesting of Thedas, as unlike the others which are basically human cultures, they are an example of a human idea of a culture that was never succesfully executed in practice.

[The Baconer]

This immortality sounds more and more like total bull**** the more it is discussed.

[Fast Jimmy]

True enough. And given the Qunari's meticulous eugenics practices, it is of interest to me if the elves are not already beginning to regain said immortality within Qunari society. If not, then maybe elven immortality is only a legend or the human Qunari are numerous enough to continue to diminish the immortal trait (perhaps purposefully). If so the the elven influence within Qunari society may be far more profound than we have been led to believen

I find it fascinating that you assume that humans would be the only ones that would cause the elves to "quicken," if the stories of their immortality was true to to begin with.

Why would you think dwarves or Qunari, who have the same rough lifespans as humans, would somehow not taint the Elves just the same? Humans were just the first non-elves to arrive in Thedas.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 janvier 2014 - 07:39 .

[Vandicus]

Fortlowe wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fortlowe: Not true - the elves have integrated into the Qun just fine.

True enough. And given the Qunari's meticulous eugenics practices, it is of interest to me if the elves are not already beginning to regain said immortality within Qunari society. If not, then maybe elven immortality is only a legend or the human Qunari are numerous enough to continue to diminish the immortal trait (perhaps purposefully). If so the the elven influence within Qunari society may be far more profound than we have been led to believen

The Dales tell us that it takes more than three centuries for isolation to have any effect on their longevity, assuming there is any to be had.

[Fortlowe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Not if it's true. Just like it's not sexist to say men areon average physically stronger than women (that women put up with us proves a far more profound, deeper strength, but that's a tangent). If elven immortality by lack of human contact is a fact, then regardless of how one may feel about it, it is just so. 

Yet there is zero evidence of that "fact."

The lifespan differential between elves in the Alienage and the Dalish is only what can be accounted for living in a sewer versus living in the open and getting plenty of exercise. As per David Gaider.

Nothing in the past 3,000 years of history even HINTS at elves being apart from humans increasing their lifespans by even a year, despite them having a few examples of entire generations worth of elves living apart from humans.

Very true. Hence the 'if' in my hypothesis. Still the reproductive issue is not insubstantial. Integration diminishes the whole. If a human elf child could still be an elf or at least sire an elf then integration could work.  it becomes a matter of preserving culture then, which or own society proves that concept.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Nothing in the past 3,000 years of history even HINTS at elves being apart from humans increasing their lifespans by even a year, despite them having a few examples of entire generations worth of elves living apart from humans.

The only elf that we have on record to life a lifespan that's unnatural by IRL standards is Zathrian, and he used a bloodmagic curse. We know for a fact bloodmagic can extend lifespans from other sources (see e.g. Avernus). 

[Fast Jimmy]

Culture isn't some static thing, an object that can be found and preserved. If the Dalish were to get their own nation, a native Arlathan that woke up from mythical immortal sleep wouldn't feel at home there, despite how much the Dalish try to recover their culture. Same thing for an elf from the original Dales after the second blight - the culture of one group wouldn't be identical to another. So recovering or preserving is just not possible - even every effort was done, it can not (and should not) be the same as it was before.

Culture changes. For the better or for the worse, but it always changes. The Dalish don't build anything resembling real buildings because they are nomads, but the ancient elves had cities that spanned the continent.

Cultural identity may be what they are working to recover, but even that is fleeting. They need to focus on creating their own, new nation and bury old hatchets and hatreds. They can still research the history, lore, knowledge and relics of their past ancestors, but they need to own their own present and shed the shackles of their past before they can even hope to have a future.

[In Exile]

Fortlowe wrote...

Very true. Hence the 'if' in my hypothesis. Still the reproductive issue is not insubstantial. Integration diminishes the whole. If a human elf child could still be an elf or at least sire an elf then integration could work.  it becomes a matter of preserving culture then, which or own society proves that concept.

The reproduction issue is irrelevant. It's not as if in the ME-verse there was any justification to wholly isolate every race from the Asari just because not-asari + asari couplings led to only asari children. 

[Rolling Flame]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Nothing in the past 3,000 years of history even HINTS at elves being apart from humans increasing their lifespans by even a year, despite them having a few examples of entire generations worth of elves living apart from humans.

Not true. It is mentioned in Origins that the Dalish live longer than humans, though by how much isn't stated.

[Vandicus]

Rolling Flame wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Nothing in the past 3,000 years of history even HINTS at elves being apart from humans increasing their lifespans by even a year, despite them having a few examples of entire generations worth of elves living apart from humans.

Not true. It is mentioned in Origins that the Dalish live longer than humans, though by how much isn't stated.

We've covered that. According to Gaider, it apparently has to do with something called "healthy living" and avoiding all of the sewage and rot that accumulates in medieval cities.

[Fortlowe]

In Exile wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Very true. Hence the 'if' in my hypothesis. Still the reproductive issue is not insubstantial. Integration diminishes the whole. If a human elf child could still be an elf or at least sire an elf then integration could work.  it becomes a matter of preserving culture then, which or own society proves that concept.

The reproduction issue is irrelevant. It's not as if in the ME-verse there was any justification to wholly isolate every race from the Asari just because not-asari + asari couplings led to only asari children. 

The Asari have a home. The Asari loose nothing in these couplings. In fact they stand to gain. 

[In Exile]

Fortlowe wrote...
The Asari have a home. The Asari loose nothing in these couplings. In fact they stand to gain. 

I'm not talking about the asari as the victims. I'm talking about the humans, who are much smaller in number, have only one largely populated world on the galactic scale - Earth - and who are newcomers to the galaxy, staring up the most dominant species in existence. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:20 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Alright time bust out the old argue against both sides of a Dalish thread thing again.

People need to stop trying to essentialize the Dalish. One can name example after example of why the Dalish are xenophobic and hostile towards humans or why they are tolerant and accepting of them and they are all true. Niether of them represent all or most Dalish. We know from David Gaider that many clans have polar opposite viewpoints when dealing with humans.

To re-purpose a quote from Sten:

"People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel (or don't) at poverty xenophobia."

There are several things I think I should mention.

The Arlathan Elves withdrew from humanity long before there was ever an Imperium. Yes. But the Imperium never became the rapidly expanding superpower it did until after it had a massive underclass of elven slaves from the conquest of the elves. Until then the Tevinter Imperium consisted of the three Neromenian kingdoms, all of whom already evidentally had the same culture anyway.

Zathrian didn't turn an entire village into werewolves. The tribe of humans attacked by Witherfang eventually left the forest.

Vandicus wrote...

No, its been called ethnic cleansing by the humans too. What we merely pointed out was that the Dalish and the
original elven empire had only themselves to blame for their fall.

If the elves were victims of ethnic cleansing then by definition they have other people to blame for their fall.

It would be like saying if the Dalish were somehow able to succeed at ethnically cleansing the former Dales of all Orlesians, then the humans have only themselves to blame.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the continental organization with armies all over the continent could play a role in preventing another fall of the Dales. It's an option I strongly want to pursue.

Sir JK's notion of extravagant and lavish Orlesian elves, death-inspired Nevarran elves, devout Anders elves, free minded Ferelden elves, diverse Marcher elves, trading Antivan elves, and Rivaini elves all trying to live together in an independent kingdom is something that I'm interested in dealing with as well.

A continent spanning organization gians it's strength from the rest of the continent. It wouldn't be able to protect a single isolated nation of elves from the ire of all of Thedas. Especially over centuries, which is the only practical solution anyway. The Orlesian Civil War and the veil tears won't last forever.

If I were you, I would not get my hopes up for being able to radically restructure Thedas to our whims in any of the games.

Anyway.

The Chasind are able to mostly coexist peacefully with the Fereldens and Rivain still has a population of Qunari and Andrastians and pantheists all coexisting. We don't know exactly why the Dalish boon failed. Alistair only vaugely hints that humans might have been responsible, but I believe there is precedent for the elves to potentially find a way to coexist with humanity somewhere in Thedas and that given that there are some Dalish clans who maintain better relations with some human communities I think the Dalish could do it too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

That whole "We must isolate ourselves or face extinction" argument is complete and utter bull****...

Just because Elves and Humans were to start living together does not mean that interracial couplings would rise to such a high percentage that it would actually endanger the Elven race. It is jsut another half-arsed bull**** statement from the pro-isolationists, who have no idea of what sociology is.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:46 .

[Green-Goose8]

Has anyone mentioned human deseases for the elves reducing lifespan

[Jedi Master of Orion]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That whole "We must isolate ourselves or face extinction" argument is complete and utter bull****...

Just because Elves and Humans were to start living together does not mean that interracial couplings would rise to such a high percentage that it would actually endanger the Elven race. It is jsut another half-arsed bull**** statement from the pro-isolationists, who have no idea of what sociology is.

Has that ever come up in the games as the main reason for Dalish isolationism? I think the forums talks about the implications of interracial marriage much more than the characters themselves do.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:51 .

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


If the elves were victims of ethnic cleansing then by definition they have other people to blame for their fall.

It would be like saying if the Dalish were somehow able to succeed at ethnically cleansing the former Dales of all Orlesians, then the humans have only themselves to blame.

If the Orlesians saw the Dales invading all their neighbors and then went, "oh woe is me" when being invaded I would find it equally laughable. So yes we can also blame the invaders themselves, but the elves did very little to protect themselves. The failure of the Dalish elves and the original elves to utilize diplomacy or intervene against the Tevinter in its infancy lead to their downfall.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I wasn't talking about the game. I don't think any Elf ever lingers more on the subject than to establish that a human is born of the coupling.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


If the elves were victims of ethnic cleansing then by definition they have other people to blame for their fall.

It would be like saying if the Dalish were somehow able to succeed at ethnically cleansing the former Dales of all Orlesians, then the humans have only themselves to blame.

If the Orlesians saw the Dales invading all their neighbors and then went, "oh woe is me" when being invaded I would find it equally laughable. So yes we can also blame the invaders themselves, but the elves did very little to protect themselves. The failure of the Dalish elves and the original elves to utilize diplomacy or intervene against the Tevinter in its infancy lead to their downfall.

Actually, the lore suggest that there was extremely high tensions between Orlais and the Dales very early on. At this point in time, there weren't really all that many nations yet. Basically tehre were only three other human nations, the Anderfels, Orlais and Tevinter. The rest of humanity made up city-states or lived in tribal communities.
Anyway, the tensions between the Dales and Orlais obviously means that diplomatic relations was rapidly declining, which must have been a result of some actions from either side. We also know that border skirmishes with the Dales prevented Emperor Drakon from launching an invasion of the Free Marches, since he had to retrun to Orlais to deal with the situation.
So the Dales did try to pick a fight with Orlais on several occasions, they might even had succeeded, had they not forced the Chantry to join the conflict.

[Fortlowe]

In Exile wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...
The Asari have a home. The Asari loose nothing in these couplings. In fact they stand to gain. 

I'm not talking about the asari as the victims. I'm talking about the humans, who are much smaller in number, have only one largely populated world on the galactic scale - Earth - and who are newcomers to the galaxy, staring up the most dominant species in existence. 

Indeed. However humanity has a home. The Asari did not conquer that home and wipe as much of its existence from creation as possible, scattering humanity to the winds in the process. Humans lost nothing of themselves in their interactions with the Asari. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We don't know specifically what it was that prevented Drakon from er...marching into the Free Marches. All the wiki says was "pressures." Anyway, I think all that went out the window with the Second Blight. The border skirmishes started up after the end of it.

There is one thing that is worth mentioning that I've noticed since the last time BSN had this argument but I realized the old entry on the wiki's timeline (which predate World of Thedas) actually says Orlais attacked the Dales in response to the raid on Red Crossing. And that would make the invasion of Orlais was in response to that and the Exalted March of the Dales was in response to that. I don't know how closely the wiki copied it's paragraphs from it's original source (presumably the Prima Guide) or if it is supposed to supersede the ambiguity of World of Thedas but if it's accurate then one could interpret either side as having started the war.

We can really only guess about what the motives of either side during the Dales-Orlais war was or what might have happened in other circumtances but my theory is that the elven successes early in the war surprised both sides and the it bred a sense of overconfidence in the elves who just kept pushing further and further without realizing the consequences they might provoke in sacking Val Royeaux. Perhaps the elves might have won the war if they hadn't inspired the Orlesians to holy war.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:11 .

[HiroVoid]

You always need to note the source when quoting the wiki. There've been other times its innaccurate due to assumptions.

[LobselVith8]

HiroVoid wrote...

You always need to note the source when quoting the wiki. There've been other times its innaccurate due to assumptions.

It's from the codex entries on the Dales. The historical accounts from the Chantry and the Dalish read that the other was the instigator of the war. The Chantry says the elves attacked Red Crossing unprovoked, while the Dalish say the Chantry invaded because the elves wouldn't convert.

[Heimdall]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

True enough. And given the Qunari's meticulous eugenics practices, it is of interest to me if the elves are not already beginning to regain said immortality within Qunari society. If not, then maybe elven immortality is only a legend or the human Qunari are numerous enough to continue to diminish the immortal trait (perhaps purposefully). If so the the elven influence within Qunari society may be far more profound than we have been led to believen

I find it fascinating that you assume that humans would be the only ones that would cause the elves to "quicken," if the stories of their immortality was true to to begin with.

Why would you think dwarves or Qunari, who have the same rough lifespans as humans, would somehow not taint the Elves just the same? Humans were just the first non-elves to arrive in Thedas.

If the timeline is to be believed, dwarves and elves came into contact about 1500 years before humans entered into the picture.  It's not unreasonable to think the elves would have noticed if dwarves made them "quicken" in that time.  Assuming they were immortal of course.

Nothing on Qunari though.