1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's true. It's why I questioned how accurate it was. And the entry in question is actually not sourced. But I'm pretty sure I remember reading the same premise years back back when the timeline didn't have World of Thedas to rely on and had to cite obscure materials for all the lore in the timeline that wasn't in the games.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

WoT makes it perfectly clear that there was border skirmishes between the two nations, and that the war started in earnest after the Dalish captured Red Crossing.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WoT makes it perfectly clear that there was border skirmishes between the two nations, and that the war started in earnest after the Dalish captured Red Crossing.

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

[EmperorSahlertz]

WoT timeline is WoG, so there is only that ONE side to this particular aspect of the story.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

Stuff that the protagonist says cannot count for lore purposes, since the protagonist is a mouthpiece to express the opinion of the player. A racist human has the option of blaming the elves for it, but that doesn't somehow substantiate the other narrative or even count as evidence in favour of it. 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WoT timeline is WoG, so there is only that ONE side to this particular aspect of the story.

WoT is a collection of entries, not WoG. The absense of the Dalish version doesn't invalidate their historical account.

[Fortlowe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

True enough. And given the Qunari's meticulous eugenics practices, it is of interest to me if the elves are not already beginning to regain said immortality within Qunari society. If not, then maybe elven immortality is only a legend or the human Qunari are numerous enough to continue to diminish the immortal trait (perhaps purposefully). If so the the elven influence within Qunari society may be far more profound than we have been led to believen

I find it fascinating that you assume that humans would be the only ones that would cause the elves to "quicken," if the stories of their immortality was true to to begin with.

Why would you think dwarves or Qunari, who have the same rough lifespans as humans, would somehow not taint the Elves just the same? Humans were just the first non-elves to arrive in Thedas.

I didn't say I did not suspect the effect could come from the Qunari, either. However there is no lore that suggests it. There is information suggesting the dwarves do not have the same quickening affect. The dwarves are native to Thedas and had a longstanding relationship with the elves prior to the arrival of humanity and the Qunari. A relationship that is another thread of pre human migration history I'm very interested in.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

Stuff that the protagonist says cannot count for lore purposes, since the protagonist is a mouthpiece to express the opinion of the player. A racist human has the option of blaming the elves for it, but that doesn't somehow substantiate the other narrative or even count as evidence in favour of it. 

The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WoT makes it perfectly clear that there was border skirmishes between the two nations, and that the war started in earnest after the Dalish captured Red Crossing.

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

To add to both of you. It's actually entirely possible that the WoT version and the Dalish version are compatible since there's no discussion what the border tensions in 2:05 actually is. They don't actually contradict since the elves make no mention what they did during the war nor does the Andrastian version discuss what exactly happened prior to Red Crossing.

[Huge_Beaver]

Let Bioware portray them however they want, despite their current image I'm still a big fan and would probably support them above all factions. And I doubt I'm the only one.

[cjones91]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

Stuff that the protagonist says cannot count for lore purposes, since the protagonist is a mouthpiece to express the opinion of the player. A racist human has the option of blaming the elves for it, but that doesn't somehow substantiate the other narrative or even count as evidence in favour of it. 

The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise.

Because people are biased and are only willing to believe one side of the story if it matches their perspective.

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: Fortunately that applies to all sides of any discussion.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:41 .

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WoT timeline is WoG, so there is only that ONE side to this particular aspect of the story.

WoT is a collection of entries, not WoG. The absense of the Dalish version doesn't invalidate their historical account.

WoT is presented as the objective history, to the point they released errata to correct inaccuracies.  New official information always supersedes old when there is a conflict between the two.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WoT timeline is WoG, so there is only that ONE side to this particular aspect of the story.

WoT is a collection of entries, not WoG. The absense of the Dalish version doesn't invalidate their historical account.

WoT says in the very introduction that the body of the book is an objective voice. So.... Yeah... It is WoG.

[Veruin]

cjones91 wrote...
Because people are biased and are only willing to believe one side of the story if it matches their perspective.

Sounds like what you and Lobel are doing.  Pot meet kettle.

[HiroVoid]

No idea what WoT is supposed to portray, but wasn't it made based on Bioware's Dragon Age Bible they use as an internal document.

[cjones91]

Veruin wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Because people are biased and are only willing to believe one side of the story if it matches their perspective.

Sounds like what you and Lobel are doing.  Pot meet kettle.

Funny because when I said that I was talking about myself as well,I have no problem admitting to being biased so your comment has no effect on me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah, World of Thedas says the main text is in universe but objective. As I've said before I also don't think the Dalish account actually says what LobselVith and possibly others believe it says.

The Codex entry on the Dales mentions templars being sent after the missionaries were expelled but I'm pretty sure this is a reference to the end of the war not the beginning.

The Dalish believe the humans attacked them because they would not worship the Maker, hence the Exalted March came after they banished the missionaries and prevented a Chantry from being built. Since we don't know how the border skirmishes started, the basic premises of both stories are still compatible with World of Thedas.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:59 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

Stuff that the protagonist says cannot count for lore purposes, since the protagonist is a mouthpiece to express the opinion of the player. A racist human has the option of blaming the elves for it, but that doesn't somehow substantiate the other narrative or even count as evidence in favour of it. 

The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise.

Because the Elven Warden was not present during the war with Orlais, and as such he has no knowledge of the actual events, other than what he has been told? Basically the word of the Warden on historical matters is about as much worth as a wet towel.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

Stuff that the protagonist says cannot count for lore purposes, since the protagonist is a mouthpiece to express the opinion of the player. A racist human has the option of blaming the elves for it, but that doesn't somehow substantiate the other narrative or even count as evidence in favour of it. 

The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise.

Because the Elven Warden was not present during the war with Orlais, and as such he has no knowledge of the actual events, other than what he has been told? Basically the word of the Warden on historical matters is about as much worth as a wet towel.

Unfortunately both historical accounts are laced with bias and nobody should use them separately to determine what actually happened to the Dales.

[Joe25]

 How to give the Dalish an image boost? I would from a fashion standpiont start with a more Celitc style of armor it would give their image a harder stronger backbone then their green plate mail.  


And maybe, add some wings on the side for color. ( I know never going to happen) 

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's more than one side to the story. The Dalish and the elven Warden express a different narrative about the inception that lead to the fall of the Dales.

Stuff that the protagonist says cannot count for lore purposes, since the protagonist is a mouthpiece to express the opinion of the player. A racist human has the option of blaming the elves for it, but that doesn't somehow substantiate the other narrative or even count as evidence in favour of it. 

The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise.

Because the Elven Warden was not present during the war with Orlais, and as such he has no knowledge of the actual events, other than what he has been told? Basically the word of the Warden on historical matters is about as much worth as a wet towel.

Unfortunately both historical accounts are laced with bias and nobody should use them separately to determine what actually happened to the Dales.

And we know that the Dalish account, or at least Lobsel's interpretation of it, is decidedly wrong, since we can verify it through WoT.

[Sir JK]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And we know that the Dalish account, or at least Lobsel's interpretation of it, is decidedly wrong, since we can verify it through WoT.

Sorry, Sahlertz. But there's plenty room in WoT's version not to contradict Lobsel's interpretation. It's fairly ambigous as to what happened in the 5-10 year period preceding the war. Something happened certainly, but it does not even remotely hint at what. Save that the relations between Orlais and the Dales turned very tense.

Modifié par Sir JK, 19 janvier 2014 - 10:02 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sir JK wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And we know that the Dalish account, or at least Lobsel's interpretation of it, is decidedly wrong, since we can verify it through WoT.

Sorry, Sahlertz. But there's plenty room in WoT's version not to contradict Lobsel's interpretation. It's fairly ambigous as to what happened in the 5-10 year period preceding the war. Something happened certainly, but it does not even remotely hint at what. Save that the relations between Orlais and the Dales turned very tense.

Except that Lobesel's says that the Dales were invaded because they refused to covnert, which we KNOW is not true, since WoT establishes that the reason the war started was that the ELVES attacked Red Crossing. Whatever caused the tensions is irrelevant, since we know that the Elves started the war. We also know that the Chantry didn't involve itself in the war, until far later in the war, but that being said, of course missionaries would have been a cause of tension for the conservative Dalish, but they are not what started the war. The Elven attack on Red Crossing is. There is nothing left to debate on the matter.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 19 janvier 2014 - 10:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Veruin wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Because people are biased and are only willing to believe one side of the story if it matches their perspective.

Sounds like what you and Lobel are doing.  Pot meet kettle. 

By pointing out that there is more than one side to the story when it comes to the war with the Dales, and nothing more? By the way, who is Lobel?

I'm not saying either side is true, I'm saying there are two sides to the story. That's it. 

What I'm seeing here is people acting disingenuous by pretending there's only one side to the story when the elven Warden and the Dalish codex make it clear that isn't the case. Their bias doesn't make the Chantry version absolute fact. There's nothing in WoT that reads that the Dalish version is inaccurate. And, as I keep pointing out ad nauseam, all I'm saying is that there are two sides to the story. And until the developers say otherwise, we don't know which one is the truth.