1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that Lobesel's says that the Dales were invaded because they refused to covnert, which we KNOW is not true, since WoT establishes that the reason the war started was that the ELVES attacked Red Crossing. Whatever caused the tensions is irrelevant, since we know that the Elves started the war. We also know that the Chantry didn't involve itself in the war, until far later in the war, but that being said, of course missionaries would have been a cause of tension for the conservative Dalish, but they are not what started the war. The Elven attack on Red Crossing is. There is nothing left to debate on the matter.

Ah, my friend. The Orlesians consider the war to have started when Red Crossing was attacked. That's when they shifted from skirmishes to war.

WoT does not actually say the war started then. Only that it happened and that it sparked outrage throughout Thedas.

It's entirely possible, and even likely, that the in the eyes of the elves they already were at war. Or perhaps the opposite, the elves do not look upon Red Crossing as an act of war.

So both cultures would deeply and fundamentally disagree on when it started, and why.


... this discussion does make me want to have an option, ingame, as a Orlesian to ask about Red Crossing.

Modifié par Sir JK, 19 janvier 2014 - 10:17 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise. 

Because the Elven Warden was not present during the war with Orlais, and as such he has no knowledge of the actual events, other than what he has been told?

It's almost as though there are two sides to the story.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Basically the word of the Warden on historical matters is about as much worth as a wet towel. 

I didn't realize your bias was lore.

[Wulfram]

I think the Dalish war probably started because of Red Crossing like WW1 started because of the assassination of the Archduke

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sir JK wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that Lobesel's says that the Dales were invaded because they refused to covnert, which we KNOW is not true, since WoT establishes that the reason the war started was that the ELVES attacked Red Crossing. Whatever caused the tensions is irrelevant, since we know that the Elves started the war. We also know that the Chantry didn't involve itself in the war, until far later in the war, but that being said, of course missionaries would have been a cause of tension for the conservative Dalish, but they are not what started the war. The Elven attack on Red Crossing is. There is nothing left to debate on the matter.

Ah, my friend. The Orlesians consider the war to have started when Red Crossing was attacked. That's when they shifted from skirmishes to war.

WoT does not actually say the war started then. Only that it happened and that it sparked outrage throughout Thedas.

It's entirely possible, and even likely, that the in the eyes of the elves they already were at war. Or perhaps the opposite, the elves do not look upon Red Crossing as an act of war.

So both cultures would deeply and fundamentally disagree on when it started, and why.


... this discussion does make me want to have an option, ingame, as a Orlesian to ask about Red Crossing.

Again, what motivated the different factions of the war, does not really hold any importance. WoT makes it perfectly clear that the war escalated as a result of Red Crossing. What happened prior to this was not war, again made perfectly clear by WoT since it establishes it as a period of mere skirmishes.
Both factions may have deep rooted and fundamentally different ideas as to WHY the war started, but teh matter of fact is that it wasn't a war until after the Elves attacked Red Crossing.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 19 janvier 2014 - 10:34 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

... this discussion does make me want to have an option, ingame, as a Orlesian to ask about Red Crossing.

Funny, this discussion gives me insight into another reason why the Dalish would want to avoid Andrastians. I take it you're hoping the human protagonist can be Orlesian?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote..
The Chantry version blames the elves for starting the war. It's not surprising a human protagonist could do the same. Frankly, I'm not certain how you're seriously arguing that we should disregard the protagonist providing an alternative account to the war with the Dales. There's more than one historical account to this event. I don't get why some people want to pretend otherwise.

I'm not denying that there are two versions here. I'm just saying "the protagonist says" isn't evidence of anything. What the Dalish believe is, because there is obviously a historical account behind it. But there's no source for what a protagonist believes. 

I'm very seriously arguing we should disregard what the protagonist says about any lore related matter, but not that there isn't an arguable issue about how this war started (i.e., whether Orlais or the Dales instigated). 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 11:23 .

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What happened prior to this was not war, again made perfectly clear by WoT since it establishes it as a period of mere skirmishes.

Skirmishes can definetly be the start of a war. Once border troops start killing each other, it's arguable that the two countries are being inevitably drawn toward a military confrontation unless they immediately start diplomacy. It's the highest possible state of tension you can have. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What happened prior to this was not war, again made perfectly clear by WoT since it establishes it as a period of mere skirmishes.

Skirmishes can definetly be the start of a war. Once border troops start killing each other, it's arguable that the two countries are being inevitably drawn toward a military confrontation unless they immediately start diplomacy. It's the highest possible state of tension you can have. 

It usually leads to war, but border skirmishes was a common occurence, and was not necessarily a part of open warfare. It could be small engagements over important resources or bridges, or simply two towns in close proximity fighting it out. So far all evidence points towards that the Orlesian military did not mobilize until after the attack on Red Crossing.

[BlueMagitek]

Didn't the Exalted March only come after the Dalish sacked VR?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Faerunner wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I think the Dalish war probably started because of Red Crossing like WW1 started because of the assassination of the Archduke

Yeah, the Orlesians were biting at the bit to attack the elves and jumped at the first excuse to do so.

I doubt the village of Red Crossing was "defenseless" nor that the elves that supposedly attacked were affiliated with the Dales (they could have been vagrants or desperate folk), but immediately sending an Exalted March to invade, conquer, subjugate, and convert an entire nation of people for one attack at one small village is disproportionate retribution if ever I saw it. (And that's not even taking into account the Dalish that humans invaded after they refused to be converted.)

The Exalted March wasn't called until over a decade later, after the Dalish had captured Montsimmard and was marching on Val Royaux.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
I doubt the village of Red Crossing was "defenseless" nor that the elves that supposedly attacked were affiliated with the Dales (they could have been vagrants or desperate folk), but immediately sending an Exalted March to invade, conquer, subjugate, and convert an entire nation of people for one attack at one small village is disproportionate retribution if ever I saw it. (And that's not even taking into account the Dalish that humans invaded after they refused to be converted.)

That's not accurate. Every source agrees that the Dales were initially very succesful in their military campaign, and repeatedly routed Orlesian armies. Whether or not Orlais started the war, the Dales managed to curbstomp their enemy all the way to Val Royeaux. That in itself suggests that the Dalish couldn't have just been victims to start, especially if Orlais was the aggressor and instigator. Routing a well-equiped military force all the way to their own capital doesn't happen without a well-armed force, and the Dales couldn't have taken Red Cross (especially if it wasn't defenceless) or Montsimmard without siege weapons. 

It's undeniable that the Dales were victimized in the Orlesian victory, but the Dales march into Orlais went far beyond just the Red Crossing. Or arey you suggesting that the Orlesians just made up the fact that they were almost crushed by the Dales?

[addiction21]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Didn't the Exalted March only come after the Dalish sacked VR?

Yes and many other towns in their path. It wasn't some "unaffiliated elves" it was a army from the Dales organized and determined to cause harm.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The raid on Red Crossing occurred in 2:9 Glory. The Fall of Montismmard and Sack of Val Royeaux and the call for the Exalted March all happened the following year in 2:10. The Fall of Halamshiral was what happened 10 years later.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 janvier 2014 - 01:24 .

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Didn't the Exalted March only come after the Dalish sacked VR?

VR never actually got sacked, but the Dalish were knocking on the doors.

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The raid on Red Crossing occurred in 2:9 Glory. The Fall of Montismmard and Sack of Val Royeaux and the call for the Exalted March all happened the following year in 2:10. The Fall of Halamshiral was what happened 10 years later.

That the Dales held out for over a decade is in itself a testament to the overall might of their kingdom. 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Didn't the Exalted March only come after the Dalish sacked VR?

It was called after the elves were close to the capital, but Faerunner is addressing the Orlesian version that says the war started because Red Crossing was attacked, and she finds it to be an insufficient reason for a war - if that account is accurate. I think the use of the term 'Exalted March' was simply a mistake.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 janvier 2014 - 01:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

eluvianix wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Didn't the Exalted March only come after the Dalish sacked VR?

VR never actually got sacked, but the Dalish were knocking on the doors.

Ah. Well the point was that it was immediately. Nor was it for a single attack on a small village. 

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Arlathan had engaged Tevinter, and only retreated because they were starting to fall ill to diseases and mortality for the first time in their existence - according to elven lore. I don't see how that supports your argument when Arlathan engaged Tevinter beforehand.[/quote]

You pointed it out yourself, they retreated, completely.  Arlathan's total withdrawal meant that they weren't able to keep Tevinter in check, or even keep an eye on them.  That let Tevinter grow powerful enough to invade.  Had the elves just kept an eye on them, didn't have to interact just watch, they could have seen how Tevinter was shaping up and taken pre-emptive action. [/quote]

As we know from Sundermount, the Arlathan elves fought Tevinter, and lost. If the elven lore is true, then you think elves suddenly suffering from disease and aging would have been a match for Tevinter humans who were already accustomed to mortality and disease for generations. I'm not going to blame Arlathan or the elves because Tevinter invaded and enslaved.[/quote]

Ugh, this is why I hate this conversation.  There is an expanse of time, centuries at least, between Arlathan closing it's borders and Tevinter invading.  That span of time is when the Elves could have done something to prevent it.  The Elves were getting sick and dieing so they retreated, turning a blind eye to the expansion of the Imperium.  That was their mistake, and it is ultimately one of the reasons they lost, Tevinter was ready for war, the Elves were not.  Your argument basically amounts to not blaming people who get their houses robbed for leaving their doors unlocked.  Yes ultimately the criminal is to blame but the victim is not absolved of their idiocy simply for being a victim.


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I see the reality of Thedas being filled with kingdoms that are intolerant towards the Dalish and the elven religion, and with templars hunt them down. I'm not seeing why that point continually gets glossed over with people who conveniently forget how elves, mages, and heathens are treated by Andrastians.[/quote]

Because the Dalish give people no reason to get over or look past their intolerance.  That's the sad truth about humanity is that we aren't going to change our way of looking at/dealing with things on our own, we need to be given reasons to reassess.  So it falls on the people who suffer intolerance to give the intolerant a reason to reassess.  It's not enough to not do anything to deserve intolerance, you have to demonstrate that you deserve tolerance.  The Dwarves are a good example, they have as many differences as the elves do with humans but we don't see a lot of intolerance towards them, primarily because they offered trade in things the humans couldn't get on their own. [/quote]

The dwarves have the sole monopoly on obtaining and distributing lyrium, and they reside in a virtually impenetrable location. This isn't an apt comparison.[/quote]

Yes it is.  We're not talking about the sustainability of nations here we're talking about individual attitudes.  Intolerance against the Elves is rampant while intolerance against the Dwarves is not, despite having as many if not more differences.  The reason for that lack of intolerance is that the Dwarves give people a reason to tolerate them.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The people who encroach their clans seem to be templars, who pursue them, or even Andrastians threatening the Dalish to convert can happen, as it did with the Sabrae clan. Humans even tried to burn down Velanna's clan. I don't see why that makes the Dalish bad guys.[/quote]

Because the Dalish are constantly trespassing on other people's property.  You can't set up a campfire on some dude's lawn without his permission and then get upset when he comes out with a hose.  If the Dalish, just once, approached a settlement and said, "We'd like to set up camp around here is that cool?" I'd have a degree of sympathy for them, hell if they just once offered ANYTHING in return for leaving them in peace I'd be on their side. [/quote]

Considering the Dalish are violating the law by worshipping the Creators and having free mages in their midst, I can't take your criticism seriously. You're condemning the Dalish for not surrendering to Andrastian forces, as their culture and religion make them criminals of Chantry law.[/quote]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the Dalish attitudes towards people being decidedly unfriendly at best and outright hostile at worse.  The Dalish do not need to bow to Andrastian demands to be civil.  The simple fact is that wherever they go the Dalish are trespassers, they acknowledge this, but deny the people their trespassing against even the slightest courtesy or consideration.  Again if I set up a campsite on your front lawn, without your permission, and get pissy when you try to kick me off your property I'm the A-hole, not you, me.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish are condemned as heathens, and their religion is the main issue in any alliance with an Andrastian nation. I'm not seeing why the entirety of the blame is laid at the feet of the Dalish. I'm certainly hoping the Inquisition affords the protagonist an opportunity to build alliances that can help the Elvhen, as well as dislodging Orlesian power from the Dales.[/quote]

To what end?  The Dalish are incapable of maintaining alliances (they won't deal with humans because immortality) so any set up in Inquisition will survive only as long as the Inquisitor is around to act on their behalf. As for getting Orlais out of the Dales the question comes again to what end?  Let's say in an ideal situation you convince Orlais to withdraw it's people from the Dales, the end result will be the Fall of the Dales all over again because the Dalish have learned nothing in their centuries of exile, and without the Inquisitor, or someone like them, to put out fires hostilities will rise, war will break out, and the Dalish will again stand alone.[/quote]

The Dalish have a treaty with the Wardens;[/quote]
 
A treaty they outright refuse to honour.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari welcomed Duncan and Hawke into her camp, while Velanna's clan civilly commented on the Warden-Commander. I'm not seeing how elven lore has prohibited the Dalish from speaking and engaging with non-elves.[/quote]

And the simple fact the Dales never did doesn't count because...?  The Dalish desire to recreate their past means they need to isolate themselves from humans.  Maintaining alliances often requires that you host an envoy of your allies.  This would mean letting a human live with them.  Add to this the Dalish attitude problem (as mentioned above) and you aren't going to have long lasting peaceful relations.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As for an independent Dales (one with the religious freedom to worship the Creators), I think the Inquisition can play a part in preventing another invasion by Andrastian forces.
[/quote]

If the Dalish need the Inquisition to keep other nations from invading, maybe they don't deserve a nation.  However I mentioned this already.  The Dalish require a group like the Inquisition to put their interests ahead of everyone elses because they're A-holes.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It wasn't just Red Crossing that happened prior to The Exalted March though. Before the Divine called for holy war the elves had control of one of Orlais' biggest cities and were marching on their capital.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 janvier 2014 - 01:45 .

[Texhnolyze101]

Elves aren't the problem its the humans and the chantry.

[General TSAR]

I know a solution to the Elf problem.

One systematic Holy Exalted March between all the Kingdoms could in theory neutralize the Elven clans + their warriors, hunters, and mages and the Elven women will be spoils of war for the victors and since Elven DNA is recessive, no need to worry about Elven children.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


As we know from Sundermount, the Arlathan elves fought Tevinter, and lost. If the elven lore is true, then you think elves suddenly suffering from disease and aging would have been a match for Tevinter humans who were already accustomed to mortality and disease for generations. I'm not going to blame Arlathan or the elves because Tevinter invaded and enslaved.[/quote]


Ugh, this is why I hate this conversation.  There is an expanse of time, centuries at least, between Arlathan closing it's borders and Tevinter invading.  That span of time is when the Elves could have done something to prevent it.  The Elves were getting sick and dieing so they retreated, turning a blind eye to the expansion of the Imperium.  That was their mistake, and it is ultimately one of the reasons they lost, Tevinter was ready for war, the Elves were not.  Your argument basically amounts to not blaming people who get their houses robbed for leaving their doors unlocked.  Yes ultimately the criminal is to blame but the victim is not absolved of their idiocy simply for being a victim. [/quote]


Yes, I don't blame the Arlathan elves because the Tevinter humans became focused on enslavement and conquest; I blame Tevinter for that. And I'm not even going to address your example because it isn't even remotely relevant to this discussion.


[quote]DPSSOC wrote...


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


The dwarves have the sole monopoly[/b] on obtaining and distributing lyrium, and they reside in a virtually impenetrable location. This isn't an apt comparison.[/quote]


Yes it is.  We're not talking about the sustainability of nations here we're talking about individual attitudes.  Intolerance against the Elves is rampant while intolerance against the Dwarves is not, despite having as many if not more differences.  The reason for that lack of intolerance is that the Dwarves give people a reason to tolerate them. [/quote]


No, it isn't. The dwarves are the only ones who can safely mine lyrium, have the sole monopoly on lyrium, and mostly live underground, away from human society. I don't get the continued comparisons with the dwarves when the comparisons are so different.


[quote]DPSSOC wrote...


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


Considering the Dalish are violating the law by worshipping the Creators and having free mages in their midst, I can't take your criticism seriously. You're condemning the Dalish for not surrendering to Andrastian forces, as their culture and religion make them criminals of Chantry law.[/quote]


Which has absolutely nothing to do with the Dalish attitudes towards people being decidedly unfriendly at best and outright hostile at worse.  The Dalish do not need to bow to Andrastian demands to be civil.  The simple fact is that wherever they go the Dalish are trespassers, they acknowledge this, but deny the people their trespassing against even the slightest courtesy or consideration.  Again if I set up a campsite on your front lawn, without your permission, and get pissy when you try to kick me off your property I'm the A-hole, not you, me. [/quote]


When you factor the threats to convert made by Andrastians against the Sabrae clan and templars pursuing the clans, it's not too difficult to understand why the Dalish would be wary of strangers. There are also the lynch mobs against mages, and how elves are viewed as less than people by many humans - as Duncan points out. The nomadic lifestyle of the Dalish is a matter of survival.


[quote]DPSSOC wrote...


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


The Dalish have a treaty with the Wardens;[/quote]


A treaty they outright refuse to honour. [/quote]


You must have played a different version of Origins than everyone else on the planet, since the Dalish do honor the treaty and aid in the Battle of Denerim (if your Warden sided with them or helped end the curse that immobilized the clan).


[quote]DPSSOC wrote...


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


Marethari welcomed Duncan and Hawke into her camp, while Velanna's clan civilly commented on the Warden-Commander. I'm not seeing how elven lore has prohibited the Dalish from speaking and engaging with non-elves.[/quote]


And the simple fact the Dales never did doesn't count because...?  The Dalish desire to recreate their past means they need to isolate themselves from humans.  Maintaining alliances often requires that you host an envoy of your allies.  This would mean letting a human live with them.  Add to this the Dalish attitude problem (as mentioned above) and you aren't going to have long lasting peaceful relations. [/quote]


Because Orlais was invading their neighbors and forcing conversion to the Maker in a series of Exalted Marches by Drakon, and the Dales remained a nation of elves who followed the Creators? Just a thought.


[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for an independent Dales (one with the religious freedom to worship the Creators), I think the Inquisition can play a part in preventing another invasion by Andrastian forces. [/quote]

If the Dalish need the Inquisition to keep other nations from invading, maybe they don't deserve a nation.  However I mentioned this already.  The Dalish require a group like the Inquisition to put their interests ahead of everyone elses because they're A-holes.[/quote]

Well, Orlais had the Chantry, and an independent Dales could have the Inquisition. If it protects the elven kingdom from being invaded in an attempt at forced conversion, I don't see the problem.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 janvier 2014 - 02:09 .

[The Hierophant]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Elves aren't the problem its the humans and the chantry.

The elves could do no wrong.

Token victim race ftw.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 20 janvier 2014 - 02:10 .