1258 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As we know from Sundermount, the Arlathan elves fought Tevinter, and lost. If the elven lore is true, then you think elves suddenly suffering from disease and aging would have been a match for Tevinter humans who were already accustomed to mortality and disease for generations. I'm not going to blame Arlathan or the elves because Tevinter invaded and enslaved.[/quote]


Ugh, this is why I hate this conversation.  There is an expanse of time, centuries at least, between Arlathan closing it's borders and Tevinter invading.  That span of time is when the Elves could have done something to prevent it.  The Elves were getting sick and dieing so they retreated, turning a blind eye to the expansion of the Imperium.  That was their mistake, and it is ultimately one of the reasons they lost, Tevinter was ready for war, the Elves were not.  Your argument basically amounts to not blaming people who get their houses robbed for leaving their doors unlocked.  Yes ultimately the criminal is to blame but the victim is not absolved of their idiocy simply for being a victim. [/quote]

Yes, I don't blame the Arlathan elves because the Tevinter humans became focused on enslavement and conquest; I blame Tevinter for that. And I'm not even going to address your example because it isn't even remotely relevant to this discussion.[/quote]

It is entirely relevant.  People who take no action to protect themselves from the dangers of the world do not deserve sympathy.  Arlathan blinded itself to the rise of a power that could rival it, and eventually surpass it.  Is it so hard for you to acknowledge that that was a case of poor judgement on their part?


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The dwarves have the sole monopoly[/b] on obtaining and distributing lyrium, and they reside in a virtually impenetrable location. This isn't an apt comparison.[/quote]

Yes it is.  We're not talking about the sustainability of nations here we're talking about individual attitudes.  Intolerance against the Elves is rampant while intolerance against the Dwarves is not, despite having as many if not more differences.  The reason for that lack of intolerance is that the Dwarves give people a reason to tolerate them. [/quote]

No, it isn't. The dwarves are the only ones who can safely mine lyrium, have the sole monopoly on lyrium, and mostly live underground, away from human society. I don't get the continued comparisons with the dwarves when the comparisons are so different.[/quote]

Because they're not different.  Where the Dwarves live and what monopoly they hold has nothing to do with how they are perceived by the general populace.  They are physiologically different and flat out reject Andrastianism but we see no instances of Dwarves being forced to live in slums, or denied work, or treated poorly by law enforcement.  None of these things have anything to do with Lyrium or the fact the Dwarves live underground.  The Dwarves as a collective have given the general populace a reason to not run them off, not because they live in a fortress or have lyrium, but because they're craftsmen, and warriors, and merchants.  The Elves, specifically the Dalish, have brought nothing to the table, so no one has any reason to tolerate having them around.


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the Dalish are violating the law by worshipping the Creators and having free mages in their midst, I can't take your criticism seriously. You're condemning the Dalish for not surrendering to Andrastian forces, as their culture and religion make them criminals of Chantry law.[/quote]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the Dalish attitudes towards people being decidedly unfriendly at best and outright hostile at worse.  The Dalish do not need to bow to Andrastian demands to be civil.  The simple fact is that wherever they go the Dalish are trespassers, they acknowledge this, but deny the people their trespassing against even the slightest courtesy or consideration.  Again if I set up a campsite on your front lawn, without your permission, and get pissy when you try to kick me off your property I'm the A-hole, not you, me. [/quote]

When you factor the threats to convert made by Andrastians against the Sabrae clan and templars pursuing the clans, it's not too difficult to understand why the Dalish would be wary of strangers. There are also the lynch mobs against mages, and how elves are viewed as less than people by many humans - as Duncan points out. The nomadic lifestyle of the Dalish is a matter of survival.[/quote]

It's also a violation of other people's private property.  The Dalish recognize themselves as unwelcome intruders but do nothing, absolutely nothing, to change that perception of themselves.  The Dalish have to keep moving because everywhere they go they pick fights with much larger forces.


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish have a treaty with the Wardens;[/quote]

A treaty they outright refuse to honour. [/quote]

You must have played a different version of Origins than everyone else on the planet, since the Dalish do honor the treaty and aid in the Battle of Denerim (if your Warden sided with them or helped end the curse that immobilized the clan).[/quote]

Yes if you drag them kicking and screaming they will but when you approach them and say, "I have a treaty you have to help me." their initial response is to refuse.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari welcomed Duncan and Hawke into her camp, while Velanna's clan civilly commented on the Warden-Commander. I'm not seeing how elven lore has prohibited the Dalish from speaking and engaging with non-elves.[/quote]

And the simple fact the Dales never did doesn't count because...?  The Dalish desire to recreate their past means they need to isolate themselves from humans.  Maintaining alliances often requires that you host an envoy of your allies.  This would mean letting a human live with them.  Add to this the Dalish attitude problem (as mentioned above) and you aren't going to have long lasting peaceful relations. [/quote]

Because Orlais was invading their neighbors and forcing conversion to the Maker in a series of Exalted Marches by Drakon, and the Dales remained a nation of elves who followed the Creators? Just a thought.[/quote]

You said there was nothing in the Dalish lore to suggest they'd refuse to work with humans, I pointed out the entire history of the Dales.  The Dales stood for 300 years and not once did they attempt any kind of relations with human nations, and they bordered 3.  You can't blame 300 years of history on the actions of a man who's max life expectancy was probably 75.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As for an independent Dales (one with the religious freedom to worship the Creators), I think the Inquisition can play a part in preventing another invasion by Andrastian forces. [/quote]

If the Dalish need the Inquisition to keep other nations from invading, maybe they don't deserve a nation.  However I mentioned this already.  The Dalish require a group like the Inquisition to put their interests ahead of everyone elses because they're A-holes.[/quote]

Well, Orlais had the Chantry, and an independent Dales could have the Inquisition. If it protects the elven kingdom from being invaded in an attempt at forced conversion, I don't see the problem.[/quote]

Except the Chantry was formed as part of the Orlesian political system.  What you're proposing is an independent goon force threaten to beat on anyone the Dalish happen to ****** off.  Which will be pretty much anyone who tries to deal with them or is forced to live close.

Edit: Not to mention the Chantry has rarely, if ever, fought Orlais' battles for them.  The Chantry may have supported the Orlesian occupation of Fereldan but at no point did the rebellion find themselves fighting Chantry Templars alongside Orlesian Chevaliers

Modifié par DPSSOC, 20 janvier 2014 - 03:09 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It wasn't just Red Crossing that happened prior to The Exalted March though. Before the Divine called for holy war the elves had control of one of Orlais' biggest cities and were marching on their capital.

Which still doesn't negate my point that all sources indicate humans were waiting for the first excuse to attack the elves. =/

Considering that the Elves were the ones who struck first, and were the ones who occupied a huge part of Orlesian territory, and even besieged the capital (and according to the wiki succeeded in sacking it), I would say that it was the Elves who was just waiting for an excuse to attack.

The Orlesians sent armed troops into Dalish lands after being told to leave the first time.Sending a armed force into a nation that asked to leave is practically begging for a fight.

Uhm... No they didn't? IF you are going by the Dalish codex entry, which is absolute and utter bull**** and isn't even worth the cumstain in a teenagers underwear, then you should be able to differ between the CHANTRY and ORLAIS. The Dalish codex entry, can be interpreted as the Chantry sent in their Templars, but as you should know, despite the two being closely tied together, the Chantry and Orlais are not the same.

It's true that they aren't the same, but the Chantry has aided Orlais in every single major conflict, nearly named an age in honor of Orlais's supremecy, and has been part of Orlais from the very beginning. Heck, History of the Chantry codexes say that the Chantry was founded by Drakon, and together they Exalted Marched all their neighbors to make the Empire of Orlais.

In Ferelden at the end of the Stolen Throne, Maric and Loghain were literally only a hair away from kicking out the chantry entirely because they are seen more as an Orlesian organization and less a religious one. 

Many people, both in the books (Maric and Loghain being prominent ones,) and many people in the forums have a very hard time distinguishing the two because they've been so interconnected throughout their combined history.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It wasn't just Red Crossing that happened prior to The Exalted March though. Before the Divine called for holy war the elves had control of one of Orlais' biggest cities and were marching on their capital.

Which still doesn't negate my point that all sources indicate humans were waiting for the first excuse to attack the elves. =/

Considering that the Elves were the ones who struck first, and were the ones who occupied a huge part of Orlesian territory, and even besieged the capital (and according to the wiki succeeded in sacking it), I would say that it was the Elves who was just waiting for an excuse to attack.

The Orlesians sent armed troops into Dalish lands after being told to leave the first time.Sending a armed force into a nation that asked to leave is practically begging for a fight.

Uhm... No they didn't? IF you are going by the Dalish codex entry, which is absolute and utter bull**** and isn't even worth the cumstain in a teenagers underwear, then you should be able to differ between the CHANTRY and ORLAIS. The Dalish codex entry, can be interpreted as the Chantry sent in their Templars, but as you should know, despite the two being closely tied together, the Chantry and Orlais are not the same.

The Chantry and Emperor Drakon were allies at the time so they are connected through the fact that the Chantry as we know was created by him.Anyway it's a known fact that after the Chantry emmisaries were forced out by the Dalish that a armed templar escort was sent sometime after.This is just one of the things that escalated the tensions between the Dales and Orlais.

Neither side disputes this so using one version of events to lay blame on the other side for starting the conflict while dismissing the second version as bull**** is being biased.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...
The Chantry and Emperor Drakon were allies at the time so they are connected through the fact that the Chantry as we know was created by him.Anyway it's a known fact that after the Chantry emmisaries were forced out by the Dalish that a armed templar escort was sent sometime after.This is just one of the things that escalated the tensions between the Dales and Orlais.

Neither side disputes this so using one version of events to lay blame on the other side for starting the conflict while dismissing the second version as bull**** is being biased.

The ONLY source there is of Templars EVER being in the Dales, in a time that MAY not have been during the Exalted March, is the godawful worthless Dalish codex entry, which is about as reliable as an old nordic Saga. Especially once you actually look at the author of the entry, and realize that he is a hateful racist, which obviously would embelish to try and victimize his people even further.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I keep saying that I think the templars referenced in that entry are the ones that joined in the Exalted March that conquered the Dales. The preceding sentence mentions that missionaries prior to the war and the following sentence mentions the elves being scattered form Halamshiral after the war.

Obviously, but some on this forum seems to be intent on misinterpreting the codex entry.

[BlueMagitek]

Pretty sure Drakon was dead at the time. :/

And I'm fairly certain that you can't combine Templars sent for protection against murder crazy elves vs. Orlaisian Chevaliers. The two organizations might be close to one another, but until Empress Celene declares herself Matriarch of the Chantry and combines the position with her place as Empress (which she won't do, since Tevinter is much more Byzantine and Ferelden is more Britain), the two are not interchangeable.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The Chantry and Emperor Drakon were allies at the time so they are connected through the fact that the Chantry as we know was created by him.Anyway it's a known fact that after the Chantry emmisaries were forced out by the Dalish that a armed templar escort was sent sometime after.This is just one of the things that escalated the tensions between the Dales and Orlais.

Neither side disputes this so using one version of events to lay blame on the other side for starting the conflict while dismissing the second version as bull**** is being biased.

The ONLY source there is of Templars EVER being in the Dales, in a time that MAY not have been during the Exalted March, is the godawful worthless Dalish codex entry, which is about as reliable as an old nordic Saga. Especially once you actually look at the author of the entry, and realize that he is a hateful racist, which obviously would embelish to try and victimize his people even further.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I keep saying that I think the templars referenced in that entry are the ones that joined in the Exalted March that conquered the Dales. The preceding sentence mentions that missionaries prior to the war and the following sentence mentions the elves being scattered form Halamshiral after the war.

Obviously, but some on this forum seems to be intent on misinterpreting the codex entry.

There are non Dalish who believe the part of the armed templars being sent into the Dales after the Chantry's missionaries were forced out.Leliana is one of them.

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Pretty sure Drakon was dead at the time. :/

And I'm fairly certain that you can't combine Templars sent for protection against murder crazy elves vs. Orlaisian Chevaliers. The two organizations might be close to one another, but until Empress Celene declares herself Matriarch of the Chantry and combines the position with her place as Empress (which she won't do, since Tevinter is much more Byzantine and Ferelden is more Britain), the two are not interchangeable.

But the two are connected at the hip,there's a reason why Maric and Loghain were suspicous of the Chantry after Orlais was driven out of Fereldan.Nobody can deny the fact that without Orlais the Chantry would'nt exist as we know it.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Holy hyperbole Batman,seriously though nobody is giving elves a pass for anything. 

Other then you and a handful of others. 

Because it's acknowledged by some of us that the Chantry version of what transpired to the Dales isn't the only historical account there is? Or because some people are disinclined to entirely trust the Chantry narrative because of the invasions that befell Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden?

No its because you only acknowledge the elves version to have any truth to it and that the others must be lies because you don't like that.

Because someone who repeats "there are two sides to every story" always ignores the side that conflicts with their bias. That only accepts one side and the other is lies.

Because you constantly shift the goal posts and discussion away because you know the Dalish are not the innocent angels you want to believe them to be.

That at the end of the day it was the Dales who marched a army into big bad oogey boogey Orleis dacking every village and town in their path to the capital.

Your precious elves attacked when their neighbor was at their weakest and lost. No taksies backsies. They proved not just tobe unwilling to help but will take advantage of any weakness. That is fact that the Dales were the ones to march a army onto foreign soil.

Not some missionaries protected by Templars (because it clear unarmed missionaries needed the protection) but an actual army. With a clear goal of sacking whatever city they could.

[BlueMagitek]

I'm not denying that, but the two are not the same thing.

Otherwise, Leliana, for example, would not have found solace from the forces chasing her.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Holy hyperbole Batman,seriously though nobody is giving elves a pass for anything. 

Other then you and a handful of others. 

Because it's acknowledged by some of us that the Chantry version of what transpired to the Dales isn't the only historical account there is? Or because some people are disinclined to entirely trust the Chantry narrative because of the invasions that befell Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden?

No its because you only acknowledge the elves version to have any truth to it and that the others must be lies because you don't like that.

Because someone who repeats "there are two sides to every story" always ignores the side that conflicts with their bias. That only accepts one side and the other is lies.

Because you constantly shift the goal posts and discussion away because you know the Dalish are not the innocent angels you want to believe them to be.

That at the end of the day it was the Dales who marched a army into big bad oogey boogey Orleis dacking every village and town in their path to the capital.

Your precious elves attacked when their neighbor was at their weakest and lost. No taksies backsies. They proved not just tobe unwilling to help but will take advantage of any weakness. That is fact that the Dales were the ones to march a army onto foreign soil.

Not some missionaries protected by Templars (because it clear unarmed missionaries needed the protection) but an actual army. With a clear goal of sacking whatever city they could.

I have always looked at both versions of events so you're just projecting.Tbh I don't even like the Dalish as much you think I do and have always prefered playing as a City Elf.

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm not denying that, but the two are not the same thing.

Otherwise, Leliana, for example, would not have found solace from the forces chasing her.

Marjolane was just one of many nobles who were'nt that important in the social structure of Orlais,but had Leliana did something to anger Empress Celene however....then I doubt the Chantry would be willing to take her in with open arms.

[BlueMagitek]

Marjolane was a bard, Leliana was implicated in selling state secrets.

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Marjolane was a bard, Leliana was implicated in selling state secrets.

And nobody seemed to care when she became the right hand of the Divine,considering Leliana was a bard herself you would think may Orlesian nobles would take offense to a accused traitor becoming a servant of the Divine herself.But like I said unless she did something to anger Empress Celene then Leliana was safe from the Orlesian court aside from that exiled captain and Marjolane.

[BlueMagitek]

Also, she was saved by a Chantry Mother who knew she was there for treason, so that kind of goes against the two being one in the same as well.

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Also, she was saved by a Chantry Mother who knew she was there for treason, so that kind of goes against the two being one in the same as well.

Never said otherwise,but the Chantry and Orlais do have a symbiotic relationship of sorts which has benefited them both in many ways.It's no surprise many people in the world of Thedas see them as one and the same.

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

 have always looked at both versions of events so you're just projecting.Tbh I don't even like the Dalish as much you think I do and have always prefered playing as a City Elf.

Did I quote you?

Guilty conscience much?

Understand I don't care what you say you are because your posts betray those self-delusions. So continue to tell yourself these lies you don't fool anyone... but yourself.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

 have always looked at both versions of events so you're just projecting.Tbh I don't even like the Dalish as much you think I do and have always prefered playing as a City Elf.

Did I quote you?

Guilty conscience much?

Understand I don't care what you say you are because your posts betray those self-delusions. So continue to tell yourself these lies you don't fool anyone... but yourself.

Self delusions?Keep telling yourself that.

[LobselVith8]

cjones91 wrote...

I have always looked at both versions of events so you're just projecting.Tbh I don't even like the Dalish as much you think I do and have always prefered playing as a City Elf. 

It's a transparent attempt at flamebaiting. I wouldn't take that poster's words seriously when post after post seems intend on trying to ignite a flame war.

[Dabrikishaw]

Yes they do.

[Sir JK]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Pretty sure Drakon was dead at the time. :/

He was. He lived to be 91 years old, at least (and that assumes he became king at 15) but he died almost 70 years before the Dales-Orlesian war. That means that someone who was born the day he died would have retired from public life by the time it started.

Not a single Orlesian that had taken part in uniting Orlais or conquering the planascenes were alive by the time of the war. Those wars of conquest had taken place almost 150 years prior. Not a single soldier that took part would ever even have met the man, perhaps not even his son.

Being worried about Orlesian expansionism because of those wars and Drakon would be akin to be wary of modern Germany because of the Austro-Prussian war and Bismarck.
Or being afraid of Santa Anna and a Mexican military invasion of Californa in an attempt to take back what they lost in the Mexican-American war.

Modifié par Sir JK, 20 janvier 2014 - 05:36 .

[Mistic]

Sir JK wrote...

Being worried about Orlesian expansionism because of those wars and Drakon would be akin to be wary of modern Germany because of the Austro-Prussian war and Bismarck.
Or being afraid of Santa Anna and a Mexican military invasion of Californa in an attempt to take back what they lost in the Mexican-American war.

Well, true, but it's not just Drakon. Orlais has been an expansionist empire for ages (literally). Nevarra, the Free Marches and most recently Ferelden can testify that Orlais likes his neighbors' territories too much, religious war or not.

But seriously, why do people obsess over who shot first in the Dalish-Orlesian war? It doesn't matter now. Why not talk about ways to solve this problem? For example, that supposed picture of Arlathan could be a third solution to the Dales problem. Instead of giving the Dales to the Elves or let Orlais crush down the rebellion, give them the option of moving to Arlathan. Of course, you may have problems with Tevinter then, but they also have problems with the Qunari, so maybe there's room for more negotiation...

Vir Atish'an. Also, we all know the Dalish-Orlesian war was Hawke's fault. Everything is Hawke's fault xD

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Marjolane was a bard, Leliana was implicated in selling state secrets.

And nobody seemed to care when she became the right hand of the Divine,considering Leliana was a bard herself you would think may Orlesian nobles would take offense to a accused traitor becoming a servant of the Divine herself.But like I said unless she did something to anger Empress Celene then Leliana was safe from the Orlesian court aside from that exiled captain and Marjolane.

Don't you mean Sister Nightingale? 

Elthina does say that no one know who the left hand of the Divine is (Leliana) as she travels in secret and goes by an alias. We know who she is because she was in our party, and Hawke knows who she is, not only because she served in Lothering where he/she's from, but also because she's famous in Ferelden for her role in stopping the Blight.

[Pasquale1234]

I haven't read the entire thread - there is a lot to get through, but thought I'd post a couple of comments.

dragondreamer wrote...
True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.

Try telling that to the generations of humans cursed with lycanthropy over several centuries by Zathrian.

cjones91 wrote..
Because a poor human can still get opportunities to improve his/her lot while a poor elf has only two options:become a servant or work with your fellow elves.

Yet Lia grew up to be a Kirkwall City Guard.

And, BTW, being a servant is not by definition an awful job.  Like many things, it depends a lot on your employer.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 20 janvier 2014 - 06:26 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I don't blame the Arlathan elves because the Tevinter humans became focused on enslavement and conquest; I blame Tevinter for that. And I'm not even going to address your example because it isn't even remotely relevant to this discussion.[/quote]

It is entirely relevant.  People who take no action to protect themselves from the dangers of the world do not deserve sympathy.  Arlathan blinded itself to the rise of a power that could rival it, and eventually surpass it.  Is it so hard for you to acknowledge that that was a case of poor judgement on their part? [/quote]

I guess I'm just one of those people who blame the nation of slavers for enslaving people, rather than the people who were enslaved.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it isn't. The dwarves are the only ones who can safely mine lyrium, have the sole monopoly on lyrium, and mostly live underground, away from human society. I don't get the continued comparisons with the dwarves when the comparisons are so different.[/quote]

Because they're not different.  Where the Dwarves live and what monopoly they hold has nothing to do with how they are perceived by the general populace.  They are physiologically different and flat out reject Andrastianism but we see no instances of Dwarves being forced to live in slums, or denied work, or treated poorly by law enforcement.  None of these things have anything to do with Lyrium or the fact the Dwarves live underground.  The Dwarves as a collective have given the general populace a reason to not run them off, not because they live in a fortress or have lyrium, but because they're craftsmen, and warriors, and merchants.  The Elves, specifically the Dalish, have brought nothing to the table, so no one has any reason to tolerate having them around. [/quote]

There are elven craftsmen, merchants, and even Grey Wardens. Your insistence on glossing over the dwarves mainly living underground and dealing with (arguably) the most valuable item in all of Thedas doesn't change the fact that the situation with the dwarves is entirely different than the situation of the elves. It's intellectually dishonest to act as though their situations are hardly any different from each other.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

When you factor the threats to convert made by Andrastians against the Sabrae clan and templars pursuing the clans, it's not too difficult to understand why the Dalish would be wary of strangers. There are also the lynch mobs against mages, and how elves are viewed as less than people by many humans - as Duncan points out. The nomadic lifestyle of the Dalish is a matter of survival.[/quote]

It's also a violation of other people's private property.  The Dalish recognize themselves as unwelcome intruders but do nothing, absolutely nothing, to change that perception of themselves.  The Dalish have to keep moving because everywhere they go they pick fights with much larger forces. [/quote]

When the law prohibits an entire race of people from their culture and religion simply because Chantry law acts as though everyone should be religiously Andrastian, I don't think the law should be respected. And since the Dalish aren't going to convert to the Chantry, it's a moot point.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You must have played a different version of Origins than everyone else on the planet, since the Dalish do honor the treaty and aid in the Battle of Denerim (if your Warden sided with them or helped end the curse that immobilized the clan).[/quote]

Yes if you drag them kicking and screaming they will but when you approach them and say, "I have a treaty you have to help me." their initial response is to refuse. [/quote]

You don't coerce Zathrian's clan into it; many of their hunters were attacked by werewolves, and they are tending to the injuried and infected, which is why it's addressed that they can't initially help.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Orlais was invading their neighbors and forcing conversion to the Maker in a series of Exalted Marches by Drakon, and the Dales remained a nation of elves who followed the Creators? Just a thought.[/quote]

You said there was nothing in the Dalish lore to suggest they'd refuse to work with humans, I pointed out the entire history of the Dales.  The Dales stood for 300 years and not once did they attempt any kind of relations with human nations, and they bordered 3.  [/quote]

The Dales bordered Orlais and the Frostback Mountains, and my point was that elven lore doesn't prohibit the Dalish to have contact with humans.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

You can't blame 300 years of history on the actions of a man who's max life expectancy was probably 75. [/quote]

And yet, Drakon's legacy of invasion and conquest has lived on with the Orlesian Empire.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Well, Orlais had the Chantry, and an independent Dales could have the Inquisition. If it protects the elven kingdom from being invaded in an attempt at forced conversion, I don't see the problem.[/quote]

Except the Chantry was formed as part of the Orlesian political system.  What you're proposing is an independent goon force threaten to beat on anyone the Dalish happen to ****** off.  Which will be pretty much anyone who tries to deal with them or is forced to live close. [/quote]

Protecting the religious and cultural freedom of the elves from invaders who would try to subjugate and convert them wouldn't make the Inquisition a "goon squad".

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

Edit: Not to mention the Chantry has rarely, if ever, fought Orlais' battles for them.  The Chantry may have supported the Orlesian occupation of Fereldan but at no point did the rebellion find themselves fighting Chantry Templars alongside Orlesian Chevaliers[/quote]

Orlais has their own army. However, the Exalted Marches are evidence of the Chantry using religion to mobilize troops against an enemy.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 janvier 2014 - 06:27 .