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[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seeing them at their worst was when the darkspawn where ravaging the land and the dalish were like "not our problem", and decided to just sit back with some popcorn and watch the pretty little human villages burn.

Nothing really compares to that, even in terms of what the other games have shown us. So really I find most of their actions less low points as much as I do standard behavior for a people who value genetic/racially based qualifications, propagate stories of victimization without addressing their own negative parts in history, and who value isolationism over cooperation with "tradition" used as a cloak to mask their xenophobia of all things non-dalish.

Basically the dalish are these guys from the hobbit.



Without the bonus of having this guy in their group,

Elves were'nt the only ones who left a village to their fate against the darkspawn,Loghain and the Fereldan armies did the same thing to Lothering and countless other villages and even Duncan had planned on leaving Fereldan altogether in order to regroup with the Grey Wardens in Orlais.

Second blight, from the wiki.
Battle of Cumberland
Learning about the Blight, Orlesian emperor Drakon enlisted the help of the mages
and permitted them to use their full power against the darkspawn. They
proved to be essential allies in battle, and Orlesian army under
Drakon's brilliant command won a series of significant victories against
the horde including the hard-fought Battle of Cumberland in 1:16.
Throughout the entire time, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. Tensions between humans and elves became especially high when the Orlesian city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by the darkspawn in 1:25 while the elven army watched nearby.
In 1:31 the darkspawn reached Minrathous, capital of Tevinter. Although they failed to sack the city, the Imperium was greatly weakened.[5]

Again...Loghain left Lothering with no protection against the darkspawn so the elves aren't the only ones who did that.Like I mentioned before Duncan even planned on leaving Fereldan to the darkspawn had he survived Ostagar.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Yeah, but loghian didn't literally stand just outside the city limits with his whole army raised and watched it get sacked and burned. Kinda was in the middle of trying to win a civil war after deciding the suicide plan cailin had cooked up wasn't going to do much good. Arguably he did it in the worst possibly ways and ultimately made the situation worse, but he did a lot more then the dalish of old.

And that was besides the point. The dalish are depicted accurately for the society they are described as having. They don't like outsiders because they fear what the outsiders will do to them, they are highly ethnocentric because of their clinging to old traditions and ways of life, which also contribute to their low numbers, which further adds to their racial outlook and near intolerance of non-dalish out of pure survival instincts.

We've seen them at their normal, and read about them at their worst, and I don't see what the problem is in viewing it that way.

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Yeah, but loghian didn't literally stand just outside the city limits with his whole army raised and watched it get sacked and burned. Kinda was in the middle of trying to win a civil war after deciding the suicide plan cailin had cooked up wasn't going to do much good. Arguably he did it in the worst possibly ways and ultimately made the situation worse, but he did a lot more then the dalish of old.

And that was besides the point. The dalish are depicted accurately for the society they are described as having. They don't like outsiders because they fear what the outsiders will do to them, they are highly ethnocentric because of their clinging to old traditions and ways of life, which also contribute to their low numbers, which further adds to their racial outlook and near intolerance of non-dalish out of pure survival instincts.

We've seen them at their normal, and read about them at their worst, and I don't see what the problem is in viewing it that way.

When you think about it Loghain was willing to see his country lose to the Darkspawn simply because of his hatred of Orlais,in short he was willing to do the exact same thing the Dalish did if the Warden had'nt challenged him.The elves were'nt the only ones guilty of abandoning cities since Duncan was planning to sacrifice a entire country had he not died in Ostagar.

The Dalish are suspicious of outsiders but when you look at their history of losing a homeland twice,being enslaved,and then forced to keep on the move  one can understand why they might be jerks to non Dalish.

Modifié par cjones91, 18 janvier 2014 - 08:13 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

If people can't use the dalish actions of the past to justify hating them, I don't see why people can use the dalish's past to justify their hate for others.

[Chashan]

The elvhenan master race needs no image boost.

Reconquest of the Dales shall be the moment of glory for them. So get in line.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Ruling bodies should never promote destabilization.

If you look around in actual international politics, that's still par for the course. Just saying.

Modifié par Chashan, 18 janvier 2014 - 08:38 .

[LobselVith8]

cjones91 wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

Once upon a time, the Dalish did nothing during a Blight. Now they have a treaty with the Grey Wardens saying they'll lend aid during a Blight. Bringing out a mistake they made hundreds of years ago to justify all the wrongs ever done to them and *continue* to be done to them gets old.

People will always use past events to justify opression,it's the same thing with mages.

The elves also aided Andraste in fighting the Tevinter Imperium which is ommited by the Chantry so that adds fuel to the fire. 

Ilen and his clan also fought the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight. And I think it's telling that the Dalish signed a treaty despite having no incentive to do so, given the loss of their homeland and templars hunting them down (which is partly why they are nomadic, as Merrill said).

[Vandicus]

The Dalish are no friends to humans or the human kingdoms, so there's no reason to expect aid from them. Kingdoms get conquered all the time. Fereldan was conquered by Orlais. The Fereldans then proceeded to man up and kick the Orlesians out of Fereldan.

If the Dalish want land so badly, they should try and take some over. If they don't want it bad enough to fight for it, then they should stop whining about how badly they lost.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that elves are not simply another ethnicity of humans, or vice versa depending on how you want to look at it.

The Dalish don't need a PR boost because they don't do anything important. They're simply vagabonds who constantly moan about losing a war centuries ago yet don't actually try to resolve any of the problems they face. They literally run away from problems by migrating.

[Grieving Natashina]

Ugh, couldn't sleep.  Trying again in a bit.

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish are no friends to humans or the human kingdoms, so there's no reason to expect aid from them. Kingdoms get conquered all the time. Fereldan was conquered by Orlais. The Fereldans then proceeded to man up and kick the Orlesians out of Fereldan.

The Dalish have come out for the greater good, and there are good examples of that in the thread.

If the Dalish want land so badly, they should try and take some over. If they don't want it bad enough to fight for it, then they should stop whining about how badly they lost.

So, a race on the verge of of disappearing forever, should take on a race that outnumbers them vastly, in a world where many don't see them as much more than basically talking slaves?  Where is the logic in that?  Also, from what I've seen, most Dalish have long been resigned about their lands.  It's their culture they lament the most.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that elves are not simply another ethnicity of humans, or vice versa depending on how you want to look at it.

That's a tin-foil hat theory I've kicked around in my head as well.  So I wonder too.

The Dalish don't need a PR boost because they don't do anything important. They're simply vagabonds who constantly moan about losing a war centuries ago yet don't actually try to resolve any of the problems they face. They literally run away from problems by migrating.

Um, the Dalish are natives to that land.  The humans came in from elsewhere (it's all over the offical cannon) and ended up gradually taking over the race.  The Dalsih migrate in order to keep the older history of the elves alive and I think as they discover their own past, they'll find more of Thedas' past.  The Chantry has kept a lot of secrets, many of which might challenge public opinion on many matters, including the elves.  Otherwise, all of the elves would be pointy haired humans treated slightly better than the Dwarves treat(ed) their castless.  They are trying to resolve those problems by trying to find pieces of their lost magic.  Without much of their lost magic, they don't stand a chance.

That being said, I will agree that the elves are their own biggest enemies, but not for the reasons you stated.  I think it's because they choose this destructive arrogance and won't even accept members of their own race.  Often times, so-called "flat ears" are barely even welcome when they find the Dalish.  That's where I think they are so damned flawed; if recovering their culture is their goal, then why do they reject members of their own race that wish to help them just because they had the misfortune of being born in a human created slum?

Dalish: Quit pretending your any better than the city elves by being isolationists.  You're all elves and you're all kind of screwed without working together.

Final note: The elves are doing something as we speak.  There is a major uprising happening in Orlais by the city elves and the Dalish.  As of Asunder, claiming that the elves are doing nothing is ill-informed.

Modifié par Starsyn, 18 janvier 2014 - 09:31 .

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Have their actions ever DIRECTLY threatened the survival of an entire race?

The humans conquered elven lands, enslaved elves (a practice that continues to this day), and continue to oppress elves in any way possible.

The Orlesians aren't "the humans" any more than the Dalish are "the elves". That's important, because the Dalish don't see it that way and that's the source of all their problems. 

But anyway, blaming, say, the Rivani for the blight of the Dalish is silly, whereas it's absolutely justified to blame Tevinter and, to a lesser extent, Orlais. 

And the elven race is dying out. 

There's no indication of that. The Dalish might well be in trouble, though that's not 100% supported, but again Dalish =/= elves. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
And I think it's telling that the Dalish signed a treaty despite having no incentive to do so, given the loss of their homeland and templars hunting them down (which is partly why they are nomadic, as Merrill said).

You mean, beside the fact that it would be completely insane to think the Dalish could win the Blight alone, and their only commitment was to help a politically neutral order that welcomes all races in the actual apocalypse? 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 janvier 2014 - 09:53 .

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...

Most city elves are beholden to humans for their very existence.

Their plight is horrible, which is why they're rising up (and good for them). The Dalish still don't have a monopoly on what it means to be elven.

Dalish mostly live apart and are currently the only hope for the elven race, barring an INTERNATIONAL city elf rebellion.

The Dalish are certainly the only hope for what they think elves should be, but that isn't saying very much.

Elves are literally dying out. The lack of a permanent independent home and their recessive race gene mean that they are an endangered species (or rather, race).

There's no evidence that the number of elves are getting smaller over generations. At most, there's evidence that's happening to the dalish, but  they're not the elves. 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:02 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And I think it's telling that the Dalish signed a treaty despite having no incentive to do so, given the loss of their homeland and templars hunting them down (which is partly why they are nomadic, as Merrill said).

You mean, beside the fact that it would be completely insane to think the Dalish could win the Blight alone, and their only commitment was to help a politically neutral order that welcomes all races in the actual apocalypse? 

Considering the Dalish are contributing their own people to help end the menace of the darkspawn by agreeing to the Wardens' treaty, I do think it matters. And an agreement with a neutral organization like the Wardens makes more sense than trying to reach an agreement with a society and religious organization that thinks the Dalish should surrender their cultural beliefs and convert to the Chantry, like the elves who submitted to human rule after the fall of the Dales.

[Angrywolves]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Yeah, but loghian didn't literally stand just outside the city limits with his whole army raised and watched it get sacked and burned. Kinda was in the middle of trying to win a civil war after deciding the suicide plan cailin had cooked up wasn't going to do much good. Arguably he did it in the worst possibly ways and ultimately made the situation worse, but he did a lot more then the dalish of old.

And that was besides the point. The dalish are depicted accurately for the society they are described as having. They don't like outsiders because they fear what the outsiders will do to them, they are highly ethnocentric because of their clinging to old traditions and ways of life, which also contribute to their low numbers, which further adds to their racial outlook and near intolerance of non-dalish out of pure survival instincts.

We've seen them at their normal, and read about them at their worst, and I don't see what the problem is in viewing it that way.

When you think about it Loghain was willing to see his country lose to the Darkspawn simply because of his hatred of Orlais,in short he was willing to do the exact same thing the Dalish did if the Warden had'nt challenged him.The elves were'nt the only ones guilty of abandoning cities since Duncan was planning to sacrifice a entire country had he not died in Ostagar.

The Dalish are suspicious of outsiders but when you look at their history of losing a homeland twice,being enslaved,and then forced to keep on the move  one can understand why they might be jerks to non Dalish.

This.

You are right.

We'll see what the dalish do in DAI It's time for their meeting Arlathan, or however it's called.

Some players want to kill all the dalish, or so they say.

I want to help them get their homeland back.<_<

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the Dalish are contributing their own people to help end the menace of the darkspawn by agreeing to the Wardens' treaty, I do think it matters.

During a Blight. That's what the treaty covers. It's not a day-to-day recruitment commitment. The Dalish lose as much as any other group in Thedas if the darkspawn overrun everything. 

And an agreement with a neutral organization like the Wardens makes more sense than trying to reach an agreement with a society and religious organization that thinks the Dalish should surrender their cultural beliefs and convert to the Chantry, like the elves who submitted to human rule after the fall of the Dales. 

I'm not bringing up your cultural assimilation wipping boy. I'm just pointing out that it isn't benevolence for the Dalish to agree to help the GWs. It would be stupid for them not to help. 

Also, funny enough, the Wardens are very much an Andrastian organization. Officially, after that Orlais did during the Second (or was it third?) blight. 

[KiwiQuiche]

No they don't.

I view them the same as the Chantry; they dug their own grave via their actions and attitudes and now they need to lie in it.

[Hellion Rex]

In Exile wrote...
Also, funny enough, the Wardens are very much an Andrastian organization.

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian?

[Vandicus]

Starsyn wrote...

Ugh, couldn't sleep.  Trying again in a bit.

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish are no friends to humans or the human kingdoms, so there's no reason to expect aid from them. Kingdoms get conquered all the time. Fereldan was conquered by Orlais. The Fereldans then proceeded to man up and kick the Orlesians out of Fereldan.

The Dalish have come out for the greater good, and there are good examples of that in the thread.

If the Dalish want land so badly, they should try and take some over. If they don't want it bad enough to fight for it, then they should stop whining about how badly they lost.

So, a race on the verge of of disappearing forever, should take on a race that outnumbers them vastly, in a world where many don't see them as much more than basically talking slaves?  Where is the logic in that?  Also, from what I've seen, most Dalish have long been resigned about their lands.  It's their culture they lament the most.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that elves are not simply another ethnicity of humans, or vice versa depending on how you want to look at it.

That's a tin-foil hat theory I've kicked around in my head as well.  So I wonder too.

The Dalish don't need a PR boost because they don't do anything important. They're simply vagabonds who constantly moan about losing a war centuries ago yet don't actually try to resolve any of the problems they face. They literally run away from problems by migrating.

Um, the Dalish are natives to that land.  The humans came in from elsewhere (it's all over the offical cannon) and ended up gradually taking over the race.  The Dalsih migrate in order to keep the older history of the elves alive and I think as they discover their own past, they'll find more of Thedas' past.  The Chantry has kept a lot of secrets, many of which might challenge public opinion on many matters, including the elves.  Otherwise, all of the elves would be pointy haired humans treated slightly better than the Dwarves treat(ed) their castless.  They are trying to resolve those problems by trying to find pieces of their lost magic.  Without much of their lost magic, they don't stand a chance.

That being said, I will agree that the elves are their own biggest enemies, but not for the reasons you stated.  I think it's because they choose this destructive arrogance and won't even accept members of their own race.  Often times, so-called "flat ears" are barely even welcome when they find the Dalish.  That's where I think they are so damned flawed; if recovering their culture is their goal, then why do they reject members of their own race that wish to help them just because they had the misfortune of being born in a human created slum?

Dalish: Quit pretending your any better than the city elves by being isolationists.  You're all elves and you're all kind of screwed without working together.

Final note: The elves are doing something as we speak.  There is a major uprising happening in Orlais by the city elves and the Dalish.  As of Asunder, claiming that the elves are doing nothing is ill-informed.

The ancient Dalish received lands for their troubles, and then lost them. The modern Dalish, who are entirely different people separated by many generations from the Dalish who were allies with humans who are also long dead, have no notable friends or allies amongst the human kingdoms.

I never said the Dalish should go to war with all humans. I said that if they want land of their own, they'll have to seize it themselves, or give someone with power a very good reason to give them land. Going to war against one group of humans is not the same as going to war with all humans. Humans themselves war with each other more than other races. Being obsessed with one's culture to the extent of being irrationally hostile and isolationist to anyone who isn't part of your special true Aryan club, is not exactly a point in the Dalish's favor. There's reasonable caution for anyone who isn't part of one's nation, then there's blaming people around you for events that happened hundreds of years ago. The average human on Thedas has never met a Dalish elf, yet you can be sure their first encounter will involve racial slurs on the part of the Dalish and possibly a  threat of bodily harm.

As for city elves, its only a matter of time before they change society to view them as equal. Though subjugated ethnicities are often viewed as second-class citizens initially, the societies eventually change to become fully accepting of them.

The elven rebellion is in fact a counterpoint to your earlier suggestion of rebellion or conquest being an insurmountable task. To me the attitude of being will to try and change their situation is far superior to the one of constant lamentation that seems to be a theme amongst all of the Dalish we've encountered previously.

[In Exile]

eluvianix wrote...

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian?

From the DA Wiki, with WOT as the source:

"In 1:33 Orlesian armies marched northwards to the Grey Warden fortress of Weisshaupt, relieving it from the siege. The Wardens were so impressed with Drakon that they converted to the Chantry. The united forces moved further north to salvage what was left of Anderfels, leading to its conversion to the Chantry and annexation by the Orlesian Empire later that year." 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Angrywolves wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Yeah, but loghian didn't literally stand just outside the city limits with his whole army raised and watched it get sacked and burned. Kinda was in the middle of trying to win a civil war after deciding the suicide plan cailin had cooked up wasn't going to do much good. Arguably he did it in the worst possibly ways and ultimately made the situation worse, but he did a lot more then the dalish of old.

And that was besides the point. The dalish are depicted accurately for the society they are described as having. They don't like outsiders because they fear what the outsiders will do to them, they are highly ethnocentric because of their clinging to old traditions and ways of life, which also contribute to their low numbers, which further adds to their racial outlook and near intolerance of non-dalish out of pure survival instincts.

We've seen them at their normal, and read about them at their worst, and I don't see what the problem is in viewing it that way.

When you think about it Loghain was willing to see his country lose to the Darkspawn simply because of his hatred of Orlais,in short he was willing to do the exact same thing the Dalish did if the Warden had'nt challenged him.The elves were'nt the only ones guilty of abandoning cities since Duncan was planning to sacrifice a entire country had he not died in Ostagar.

The Dalish are suspicious of outsiders but when you look at their history of losing a homeland twice,being enslaved,and then forced to keep on the move  one can understand why they might be jerks to non Dalish.

This.

You are right.

We'll see what the dalish do in DAI It's time for their meeting Arlathan, or however it's called.

Some players want to kill all the dalish, or so they say.

I want to help them get their homeland back.<_<

I'd have tried to establish  a new treaty between the chantry and the dalish, instead of clinging to the past and giving them a old pile of rocks covered by hundreds of tons of mud and dirt.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Dalish are contributing their own people to help end the menace of the darkspawn by agreeing to the Wardens' treaty, I do think it matters.

During a Blight. That's what the treaty covers. It's not a day-to-day recruitment commitment. The Dalish lose as much as any other group in Thedas if the darkspawn overrun everything.

In which you and I will simply have to disagree on the importance of the Dalish signing a treaty in the wake of all they lost. The only group that fights the darkspawn 24/7 are the dwarves; I give them tremendous credit for that.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And an agreement with a neutral organization like the Wardens makes more sense than trying to reach an agreement with a society and religious organization that thinks the Dalish should surrender their cultural beliefs and convert to the Chantry, like the elves who submitted to human rule after the fall of the Dales.

I'm not bringing up your cultural assimilation wipping boy. I'm just pointing out that it isn't benevolence for the Dalish to agree to help the GWs. It would be stupid for them not to help. 

Also, funny enough, the Wardens are very much an Andrastian organization. Officially, after that Orlais did during the Second (or was it third?) blight. 

They're politically neutral (with a few obvious exceptions) and conversion to the Chantry isn't mandated for their members; non-Andrastians aren't expected to give up their culture or religion to be a member.

[KiwiQuiche]

eluvianix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Also, funny enough, the Wardens are very much an Andrastian organization.

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian?

They're not. They may have been started by the Chantry a few centuries, yet they are no longer a part of it nor do they answer to it anymore; I thought the fact blood mages/apostates were allowed in their ranks made it fairly obvious, Exile.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

eluvianix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Also, funny enough, the Wardens are very much an Andrastian organization.

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian?

They converted during the 2nd blight when drakon saved the anderfels from destruction.

[In Exile]

Vandicus wrote...
I never said the Dalish should go to war with all humans. I said that if they want land of their own, they'll have to seize it themselves, or give someone with power a very good reason to give them land. Going to war against one group of humans is not the same as going to war with all humans. Humans themselves war with each other more than other races.

For the Dalish to take lands it'll mean slavery or ethnic cleansing. How exactly the rest of the human nations in Thedas see that would be pretty iffy. If there's an expansionist neighbour, the Dalish's conquest is a pretty good justification for basically annexing the territor (the elves are attacking, we're here to save our fellow humans! the land is in disorder, we'll just keep troops here to maintain order! keeping you safe is costly, pay us taxes!). 

It seems to me that for the Dalish to suceed in carving out a homeland for themselves, they'll need political and military backing from at least some powerful nations. 

At any rate, I do agree with the general tenor of the rest of your post. 

[KiwiQuiche]

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'