1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...
True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.

Try telling that to the generations of humans cursed with lycanthropy over several centuries by Zathrian.

That being said, that was one Keeper, and not his entire clan. Nobody but he knew the truth of the curse, right?

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

He was. He lived to be 91 years old, at least (and that assumes he became king at 15) but he died almost 70 years before the Dales-Orlesian war. That means that someone who was born the day he died would have retired from public life by the time it started.

Not a single Orlesian that had taken part in uniting Orlais or conquering the planascenes were alive by the time of the war. Those wars of conquest had taken place almost 150 years prior. Not a single soldier that took part would ever even have met the man, perhaps not even his son.

Being worried about Orlesian expansionism because of those wars and Drakon would be akin to be wary of modern Germany because of the Austro-Prussian war and Bismarck.
Or being afraid of Santa Anna and a Mexican military invasion of Californa in an attempt to take back what they lost in the Mexican-American war.

Did those countries want to convert the four corners of the world to the Chant of Light, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens? Just curious, because I think the the leadership of the Dales would have had a genuine concern over an imperialist neighbor that conquered it's other neighbors in their inception as an empire, and was still focused on establishing an empire under the worship of the Maker.

[cjones91]

eluvianix wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...
True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.

Try telling that to the generations of humans cursed with lycanthropy over several centuries by Zathrian.

That being said, that was one Keeper, and not his entire clan. Nobody but he knew the truth of the curse, right?

Lanayla suspected something but was'nt really sure and I doubt the other clan members would support Zatharian if they knew what he had done.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

He was. He lived to be 91 years old, at least (and that assumes he became king at 15) but he died almost 70 years before the Dales-Orlesian war. That means that someone who was born the day he died would have retired from public life by the time it started.

Not a single Orlesian that had taken part in uniting Orlais or conquering the planascenes were alive by the time of the war. Those wars of conquest had taken place almost 150 years prior. Not a single soldier that took part would ever even have met the man, perhaps not even his son.

Being worried about Orlesian expansionism because of those wars and Drakon would be akin to be wary of modern Germany because of the Austro-Prussian war and Bismarck.
Or being afraid of Santa Anna and a Mexican military invasion of Californa in an attempt to take back what they lost in the Mexican-American war.

Did those countries want to convert the four corners of the world to the Chant of Light, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens? Just curious, because I think the the leadership of the Dales would have had a genuine concern over an imperialist neighbor that conquered it's other neighbors in their inception as an empire, and was still focused on establishing an empire under the worship of the Maker.

Well the whole catholic vs protestant was still going strong even up to those wars in some degree so yeah, there were occasionally religious drives to waging their wars previously. 

[dragondreamer]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I haven't read the entire thread - there is a lot to get through, but thought I'd post a couple of comments.

dragondreamer wrote...
True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.

Try telling that to the generations of humans cursed with lycanthropy over several centuries by Zathrian.

One man with a vendetta isn't the same thing as the social oppression of an entire segment of society by another segment of society.  I know folks in this thread like to play games, but I think it should be very clear what's being referred to by oppression in a discussion involving elves.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: The problem with Zathrian is that the Dalish are clearly set up in such a way as to be utterly subservient to their Keeper.

So if a Keeper wants to hold his entire clan hostage with a vendetta hundreds of years dead... he seems perfectly capable of doing so without a single peep from his servants...err.. people.

Had I been Athras I would have told him to stick his ironbark staff.

@Dragondreamer:  Zathrian (and it seems all Keepers) is what is called and autocrat.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 janvier 2014 - 06:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom. 

Try telling that to the generations of humans cursed with lycanthropy over several centuries by Zathrian.

So the comparison to centuries of instituted servitude by multiple human kingdoms is a single elven man who cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter?

Pasquale1234 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Because a poor human can still get opportunities to improve his/her lot while a poor elf has only two options:become a servant or work with your fellow elves. 

Yet Lia grew up to be a Kirkwall City Guard.

With a Guard Captain who is friends with two elves. It's also a city where elven children were being murdered because no one cared (which mirrors incidents in the real world) before Aveline took office, and across the sea, we had an entire group of elven women who were abducted in broad daylight.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And, BTW, being a servant is not by definition an awful job.  Like many things, it depends a lot on your employer.

Which doesn't change the fact that most elves are limited in their employment options, nor do they have representation. The elves are treated as second class citizens, barred from carrying arms, and the men, women, and children can be killed en mass in a purge.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 janvier 2014 - 06:47 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: The problem with Zathrian is that the Dalish are clearly set up in such a way as to be utterly subservient to their Keeper.

So if a Keeper wants to hold his entire clan hostage with a vendetta hundreds of years dead... he seems perfectly capable of doing so without a single peep from his servants...err.. people.

Had I been Athras I would have told him to stick his ironbark staff.

@Dragondreamer:  Zathrian is was is called and autocrat.

Thing is, I still don't think they knew the truth of the curse he had wrought, subservient or no.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Ignorance won't save them. Had the Warden not come along - that entire clan, save Zathrian who would probably have fled to a new clan - would have been consumed because they put all their faith in their Keeper.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: The problem with Zathrian is that the Dalish are clearly set up in such a way as to be utterly subservient to their Keeper.

So if a Keeper wants to hold his entire clan hostage with a vendetta hundreds of years dead... he seems perfectly capable of doing so without a single peep from his servants...err.. people.

A Keeper was prohibited from a relationship with a person by the elders (Dalish Origin), and no one held Velanna or Merrill hostage when the two characters decided to go their own way.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: Ignorance won't save them. Had the Warden not come along - that entire clan, save Zathrian who would probably have fled to a new clan - would have been consumed because they put all their faith in their Keeper.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. All I am saying is that I blame only Zathrian because he cursed the innocent people and lied to his clan to hide his involvement in the creation of those werewolves.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: I'm not sure what you're saying... Marethari and Zathrian weren't in total control of their respective clans? I'm not sure I experienced the same Dalish clans as you.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: I'm not sure what you're saying... Marethari and Zathrian weren't in total control of their respective clans? I'm not sure I experienced the same Dalish clans as you.

The parents of the Dalish protagonist saw each other in secret because the elders prohibited the Keeper from the relationship. Hardly total control.

[dragondreamer]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: I'm not sure what you're saying... Marethari and Zathrian weren't in total control of their respective clans? I'm not sure I experienced the same Dalish clans as you.

In the Dalish origin it's explained that the Keeper isn't the same as a "ruler", they're more of a spiritual leader, so they're very respected and influential, but the Clan Elders can and will override them should they decide to do so.

[myahele]

I wonder if zathrian taught other keepers about his techniques? Dalish is all about passing on knowledge and info to each other. Then there's also the fact that they all meet every decade or so.

The fact that he's lived a long life and still looks to be in his prime will raise eyebrows among other keepers.

It also seems that all each clan has its own culture and beliefs, so that's one thing to keep in mind

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Did those countries want to convert the four corners of the world to the Chant of Light, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens? Just curious, because I think the the leadership of the Dales would have had a genuine concern over an imperialist neighbor that conquered it's other neighbors in their inception as an empire, and was still focused on establishing an empire under the worship of the Maker.

Right... these things aren't terribly easy to respond to Lobsel. But I'll try my best.

Obviously neither Prussia nor Mexico of the late 19th century sought to spread the Chant of Light, seeing it's a fictional religion created in the 21st century.

Did they seek to actively spread their own religion? No, though there was secterarian violence in both wars. Prussia vs France was a war of mostly protestants against catholics, and the same applies of USA against Mexico. In the latter war, there were catholics in the USA accused of being mexican collaborators. Completely without evidence. It turned real ugly in some cases.

However, ever since the Westphalian peace: religion was no longer the primary ideological base of a country. Instead the primary ideology was that of the nation and the people. In a sense, this took largely the same role as religion did when it came to conflict.

And both wars were absolutely about the idea of Nations. The idea of Germany and the idea of USA most notably (and they were utlimately the succesful).

So, in that sense. Yes. They were trying to spread their ideas to their neighbours, forcefully.

But, like Orlais at the beginning of the Glory Age, it does not matter because they are not the same nations today as they were back then.
If the elves at the beginning of the Glory Age are concerned about Drakon's empire, then they are living in the past or downright indulging in the creation of an enemy to wage war against. Much like me being worried about Bismarks german empire would be me living in the past or indulging in the creation of an enemy.

However, and this is an important one, they might very well have had legitimate grievances with the Orlais of Glory Age, which isn't Drakon's empire but the one a few generations later.

Furthermore, The Ciriane and the Planasene shared religion. They might not have been united under the Chantry, but they both revered Andraste and Maker. This was not wiping out a foreign religion, it was uniting people believing the same thing under a single priesthood (one allied to the emperor).
Moreover, it was not a complete war of conquest as much as it was a restoration of Maferath's kingdom. A mere 140 years earlier, both Ciriane and Planasene had fought side by side under Maferath and Andraste.
In addition, without these conquests... Orlais would be smaller geographically than the Dales. Perhaps even in population.

But again... the Dales might have had legitimate cause to pressure Drakon from now continuing his campaign into the Free Marches (unclear whether Nevarra is considered a Marcher city or a Planasene one in this case).

They might also have had legitimate concerns with the Orlais of Glory Age, just having come out as the victor of the Blight. But those will be separate ones. Because there would have been noone left alive to remember what Orlais was like during those early wars*.
The Orlais of Glory will be just as distinct from pre-Divine Orlais as modern Germany is from the Germany of 1870.

* Unless of course the elves had somehow "recovered" long life during this period. So literally the same ones that saw Drakon conquer his northern fellow andrastians would still be in power. At which point them living in the past would make sense.

Modifié par Sir JK, 20 janvier 2014 - 08:08 .

[dragonflight288]

Now to be fair before I get into a rant that I wrote over a year ago, (this will be a copy and paste from a PM conversation I had with Etheral when he asked my opinion of Merrill, the Eluvians and the Dalish and took me over 2 and a half hours to write) that what I've written is NOT my opinion of the Dalish throughout history and the Dales, nor is it a condemnation of all elves.

I wish to make it clear that I hold Orlais more at fault than the Dales for the war as I look at the social and economical situations that we know of and I find that Orlais (and the Chantry) had the greatest motivation for the war, but that also does not mean I hold the Dalish blameless for that same war. They hold some blame too. I just give more to Orlais.

Now remember, this is going to be pretty long, and it mainly reflects Merethari, Merrill, the eluvians, and the Dalish on Sundermount, but I do cover a lot about the Dalish in general.

Okay, are we cool? We're cool. Here we go, a PM to Etheral about the Dalish done on August 10th, 2011, and my opinions haven't changed that much.

************


My opinion is pretty simple. The Dalish elves are self-righteous and arrogant. They and the chantry both are responsible for the sacking of the Dales...although I blame the chantry more than I do the elves...a lot more. Both sides hide their dirty laundry after all.

When I play as a Dalish warden or talk to the Dalish as an outsider, I see the dalish having a threefold mission.

The first is the restoration of Arlathan and everything associated with it. This means the revival of the language, the culture, the gods, the knowledge, and the technology. So that means magical knowledge, like the eluvians, blood magic, arcane warriors, in addition to the technology a crafter can supply his people.

The second is to restore their homeland. Which means finding a land to call home. Set up their findings, each clan learning all they can from the others as one clan may find information another lacks.

The third is teaching the lost ones...the city elves, the old ways.

Essentially they want to rebuild their empire and unite the elves.

Now moving on to Merrill, Merethari, and the dalish elves near Kirkwall. They had just escaped the blight and are camping dangerously close to Kirkwall and its templars. The clan knows that the Keeper has a debt to pay to Ashbelennar (Flemeth) so they expect to stay there for Hawke to show up. Only they were expecting an elf, as the watch outright admits.

While they are there, Merrill and Merethari encounter a demon sealed within a statue. Merethari refuses to even listen to it, while Merrill is more open. Both are knowledgeable about the Fade and the dangers of consorting with demons. Merrill is also holding a piece of the eluvian, likely stashed safely away because of the corruption from the darkspawn.

She learns blood magic from the demon and how to purify the tainted shard. The fact that she stays in close proximity to the shard for over a decade without becoming tainted, or tainting anyone around her is proof that she succeeded.

Merrill uses her blood magic very carefully, only believing in herself when dealing with demons, taking their knowledge as they offer it, but not their deals.

Merethari fears the darkspawn taint, having lost two hunters to the eluvian before it was potentially destroyed by Duncan. She is also afraid of blood magic and what it may lead Merrill too.

So the first time that Hawke meets the Dalish, only a few are suspicious of Merrill, but some, like the crafter mourn her leaving. Merethari even tells Merrill it's not too late to reconsider her path.

On my first playthrough, I'm just wearing a blank look with question marks in my eyes. So I decide to see what's happening as the game progresses.

We come to act 2, and I see the city-born Pol running from Merrill, even more terrified of her than he is of the Varterral. I am absolutely shocked by that happening.

When we get back to camp, Merethari admits she told the clan that Merrill could bring back the taint and that she was a blood mage...then had the audacity to ask her to return. I literally face-palmed at that.

Pol was city-born, and when he greets Hawke, he's all "Praise Andras....the CREATORS!" leading me to believe he was still a believer in the chantry, but didn't want to return to the alienage. So his views are colored by andrastian beliefs regarding blood magic.

But the very moment he ran to his death rather than be rescued by Merrill, I felt it was too late for Merrill to return to the clan, as they all now hated her guts and distrusted her, based entirely on Merethari's opinion, which has no evidence supporting it.

For one thing, Merrill does not control anyone's mind throughout the game, she does not get the taint, or infect anyone else with it. And in Witch Hunt, elves who had gone into that ruin with the eluvian were corrupted by the taint, so we prove that Merrill succeeded in purifying it.

We also have a clear distinction concerning their differing opinions on the eluvian. Merrill is constantly researching a scrap of lore, using a single shard, and is in the process of rebuilding an eluvian from scratch. Merethari believes that such knowledge belongs to another time and should be left well enough alone. She doesn't even want to touch the lore saying it is far too dangerous. She even tries to renege on her deal with Merrill.

Merrill asks for the tool in Act 2, and Merethari says she'll give it to her in exchange for defeating the Varterral. Well, we defeat the varterral but she gives the tool to Hawke and asks he/she NOT give it to Merrill. She broke her deal, and an important dalish rite invoked by Merrill.

In Act 3, the Dalish are pretty fed up with Kirkwall. They want to leave, but have no Halla. They are fed up with Merethari who is keeping them there as she is constantly asking Merrill to return. And because Merrill is a blood mage and may bring back the taint, she becomes an easy target for their hatred and malcontent, to the point that they refuse to even listen to an opinion that isn't theirs.

Granted, the dalish generally do that regardless of Merrill, and the Chantry...and every other culture. Getting off track.

Merrill, knowledgeable about the eluvians, having done a butt load of research and hard work into rebuilding the mirror, is at a dead end. She doesn't know enough to complete it. She recognizes the demon does. She asks Hawke to accompany her up...and should the worst come to pass, kill her.

Up to this point, I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on. Merrill is discovering the lost knowledge, she is trying to rebuild a very large part of the Dalish heritage (and even if they only manage the long distance communication, that would benefit all the clans and the people as a whole). She invoked the rite to obtain a tool, and honored her end of the bargain.

Merethari on the other hand, was doing nothing to help the clan leave. She stuck around asking Merrill to return to a clan that hated her...courtesy of Merethari warning them of blood magic and the taint. She tried to break the deal with Merrill, and she didn't research or even look into any lore on eluvians.

What it came down to for me was simple. Merrill is a world authority of Eluvians, possibly only Morrigan surpassing her in knowledge for getting one started. She is working at a goal to benefit her people worldwide, she is restoring a part of their heritage. Merrill was following the mission of the Dalish.

Merethari was thinking too much like a mother and less a keeper. I don't doubt she cared for Merrill, but I doubt her (un)common sense. She and the Dalish had an opinion, and no amount of evidence would change it.

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

We show up at the cave, and Merethari reveals herself as an abomination. She says the demon planned to escape from the eluvian and Merrill would be the first victim, so she (Merethari) willingly paid the price she feared Merrill would pay.

Again, I facepalmed. Someone who has steadfastly avoided dealing with demons, wouldn't listen to what they say, didn't do ANY research at all eluvians, she seemed to assume a lot. And she was so self-righteous that she wouldn't even consider that Merrill could be correct...and she practically abandoned her duty as a Keeper because of Merrill.

So we have to kill Merethari, and therein any chance of completing the Eluvian because a leader without any facts but a very strong opinion felt her way was the best way.

After we leave the cave, we are confronted by the dalish elves. They didn't know that Merethari was an abomination, so that shows me that Merethari thought it fit to warn them about Merrill but not about herself. And when we tell them that Merethari was an abomination, they, having spent a decade blaming Merrill for them staying there, Pol's death, fearing her because she was a blood mage and could potentially bring back the darkspawn taint.

And having spent so long blaming Merrill, they won't even consider that Merethari made her own choices, that Merrill did the duty of the clan by killing an abomination. All they see is Merrill driving Merethari to desperation...despite the fact that Merrill left the clan roughly a decade earlier and no longer had any claim to them.

They are angry, prejudiced against Hawke as a shemlen, prejudiced against Merrill as a blood mage, afraid of the taint, that they won't even consider the fact that Merrill is helping her people. We are forced to kill them, because I won't take responsibility for Merrill when Merethari was also a completely rational adult who could make her own decisions.

They attack en mass because of hatred and self-righteousness. There is no way they can be in the wrong, it has to be all their fault, the shemlen and the outcast.

Essentially Merrill was accomplishing what Dalish are supposed to do, and she was hated because of it.

Merethari was not doing her duty, unwittingly sowed the seeds of hatred and distrust, because she was thinking more of a witless mother with no long-term plan. In addition to her endangering the clan by becoming an abomination without warning anyone, and abandoning the mission of the dalish by denying any research into the eluvian, and breaking her deal with merrill in act 2.

That's essentially my rant about Merrill and the Dalish. I always romance Merrill as well. She's just so dang cute and intelligent...just naive. Of course, she seems much more sarcastic later in the game than innocently naive. Another trait I like because she pulls it off well.

[Iron Fist]

The Dalish need to actually unite and decide what they stand for because it seems that the different clans don't agree on everything, yet people blame the entire Dalish community when an individual does something horrible.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 20 janvier 2014 - 08:33 .

[cjones91]

MevenSelas wrote...

The Dalish need to actually unite and decide what they stand for because it seems that the different clans don't agree on everything, yet people blame the entire Dalish community when an individual does something horrible.

Just like with mages.

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

The Dalish need to actually unite and decide what they stand for because it seems that the different clans don't agree on everything, yet people blame the entire Dalish community when an individual does something horrible.

Just like with mages.

And to a certain extent....every other group. 

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

The Dalish need to actually unite and decide what they stand for because it seems that the different clans don't agree on everything, yet people blame the entire Dalish community when an individual does something horrible.

Just like with mages.

And to a certain extent....every other group. 

But mostly mages and elves in general,if one of them screws up then they all get blamed for it,Hell,the mages can't go one day of their lives without someone blaming them for something like the common cold.

[Sir JK]

cjones91 wrote...

But mostly mages and elves in general,if one of them screws up then they all get blamed for it,Hell,the mages can't go one day of their lives without someone blaming them for something like the common cold.

Orlesians, Tevinter and Qunari sit in the same boat really.

Meanwhile Fereldans and Nevarrans seem to be able to do no wrong... It's fascinating really...

[Pasquale1234]

LobselVith8 wrote...
So the comparison to centuries of instituted servitude by multiple human kingdoms is a single elven man who cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter?

Actually he "punished" a lot of people who had nothing to do with that unfortunate incident, including members of his own clan for centuries.

The point is that the Dalish are also capable of committing atrocities.

With a Guard Captain who is friends with two elves. It's also a city where elven children were being murdered because no one cared (which mirrors incidents in the real world) before Aveline took office, and across the sea, we had an entire group of elven women who were abducted in broad daylight.

There's actually more to it than that.  Several of the party members approve of Hawke killing Kelder to ensure that he wouldn't harm any more elven children.

I really like Lia's characterization and growth.  She seems to have made Hawke somewhat of a role model, and her experience with Kelder seemed to have strengthened her.  She went from not wanting Hawke to hurt Kelder to accepting that his death was necessary.  Most people face adversity and injustice to some degree - what we do about it and how we allow it to change us is up to us.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And, BTW, being a servant is not by definition an awful job.  Like many things, it depends a lot on your employer.

Which doesn't change the fact that most elves are limited in their employment options, nor do they have representation. The elves are treated as second class citizens, barred from carrying arms, and the men, women, and children can be killed en mass in a purge.

Fereldens faced similar issues in Kirkwall.  As a noble's lady-in-waiting, Iona appeared to enjoy a much nicer lifestyle than many human laborers.  So did Orana once she arrived at the Hawke estate, especially since it was Sandal's job to empty the chamber pot, and Bodahn thoroughly tended the equipment.

I don't deny that elves have been and are routinely mistreated.

I would, however, suggest that in some ways some of them have been their own worst enemies.

Most of my Cousland Wardens would have been willing to set aside land in Highever and / or Amaranthine for elven occupation.  They would have passed and enforced laws to allow them to practice their culture and religion, protect halla, keep templars at bay, and give the Keeper full Bann status.  In return, they would have expected full fealty, payment of taxes, supplying troops, etc - but I've never really believed that they would be satisfied with anything less than full and complete isolationist sovereignty.  Perhaps that depends on the clan - and just as elves are not all alike, neither are humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sir JK wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

But mostly mages and elves in general,if one of them screws up then they all get blamed for it,Hell,the mages can't go one day of their lives without someone blaming them for something like the common cold.

Orlesians, Tevinter and Qunari sit in the same boat really.

Meanwhile Fereldans and Nevarrans seem to be able to do no wrong... It's fascinating really...

I can't remember anyone ever blaming King Calenhad or any of the Van Markam Kings of Nevarra for being conquerors like they do for Emperor Drakon, even though they all did the same thing (minus saving the world from darkspawn).

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 janvier 2014 - 09:05 .