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[dragonflight288]

Sir JK wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

But mostly mages and elves in general,if one of them screws up then they all get blamed for it,Hell,the mages can't go one day of their lives without someone blaming them for something like the common cold.

Orlesians, Tevinter and Qunari sit in the same boat really.

Meanwhile Fereldans and Nevarrans seem to be able to do no wrong... It's fascinating really...

What can I say, we have nationalistic pride when it comes to Ferelden because that was where the first game took place. And Nevarra is kind of scarce on details. We don't have enough information to criticize them. 

[Osena109]

 No the Dalish need to wake up and face reality there people were never  truely immortal and they cosed the war with the chantry  because they used blood magic to prolong there life's

[Sir JK]

dragonflight288 wrote...

What can I say, we have nationalistic pride when it comes to Ferelden because that was where the first game took place. And Nevarra is kind of scarce on details. We don't have enough information to criticize them. 

Or is it because Nevarra is not only Orlais' enemy but also defeating Orlesians (I think you're right when it comes to Ferelden though).

[dragonflight288]

Sir JK wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

What can I say, we have nationalistic pride when it comes to Ferelden because that was where the first game took place. And Nevarra is kind of scarce on details. We don't have enough information to criticize them. 

Or is it because Nevarra is not only Orlais' enemy but also defeating Orlesians (I think you're right when it comes to Ferelden though).

Well that's a plus about Nevarra in my book. 

Although the Inquisitor is probably going to be Orlesian.

And thanks. 

[Iron Fist]

Osena109 wrote...

 No the Dalish need to wake up and face reality there people were never  truely immortal and they cosed the war with the chantry  because they used blood magic to prolong there life's

We don't know the true story. It's all dubious historical information.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Did those countries want to convert the four corners of the world to the Chant of Light, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens? Just curious, because I think the the leadership of the Dales would have had a genuine concern over an imperialist neighbor that conquered it's other neighbors in their inception as an empire, and was still focused on establishing an empire under the worship of the Maker.

Right... these things aren't terribly easy to respond to Lobsel. But I'll try my best. 

Obviously neither Prussia nor Mexico of the late 19th century sought to spread the Chant of Light, seeing it's a fictional religion created in the 21st century. 

Did they seek to actively spread their own religion? No, though there was secterarian violence in both wars. Prussia vs France was a war of mostly protestants against catholics, and the same applies of USA against Mexico. In the latter war, there were catholics in the USA accused of being mexican collaborators. Completely without evidence. It turned real ugly in some cases. 

However, ever since the Westphalian peace: religion was no longer the primary ideological base of a country. Instead the primary ideology was that of the nation and the people. In a sense, this took largely the same role as religion did when it came to conflict. 

And both wars were absolutely about the idea of Nations. The idea of Germany and the idea of USA most notably (and they were utlimately the succesful). 

So, in that sense. Yes. They were trying to spread their ideas to their neighbours, forcefully.

But, like Orlais at the beginning of the Glory Age, it does not matter because they are not the same nations today as they were back then. 
If the elves at the beginning of the Glory Age are concerned about Drakon's empire, then they are living in the past or downright indulging in the creation of an enemy to wage war against. Much like me being worried about Bismarks german empire would be me living in the past or indulging in the creation of an enemy. 

However, and this is an important one, they might very well have had legitimate grievances with the Orlais of Glory Age, which isn't Drakon's empire but the one a few generations later. 

Furthermore, The Ciriane and the Planasene shared religion. They might not have been united under the Chantry, but they both revered Andraste and Maker. This was not wiping out a foreign religion, it was uniting people believing the same thing under a single priesthood (one allied to the emperor). 
Moreover, it was not a complete war of conquest as much as it was a restoration of Maferath's kingdom. A mere 140 years earlier, both Ciriane and Planasene had fought side by side under Maferath and Andraste.
In addition, without these conquests... Orlais would be smaller geographically than the Dales. Perhaps even in population. 

But again... the Dales might have had legitimate cause to pressure Drakon from now continuing his campaign into the Free Marches (unclear whether Nevarra is considered a Marcher city or a Planasene one in this case). 

They might also have had legitimate concerns with the Orlais of Glory Age, just having come out as the victor of the Blight. But those will be separate ones. Because there would have been noone left alive to remember what Orlais was like during those early wars*.
The Orlais of Glory will be just as distinct from pre-Divine Orlais as modern Germany is from the Germany of 1870. 

* Unless of course the elves had somehow "recovered" long life during this period. So literally the same ones that saw Drakon conquer his northern fellow andrastians would still be in power. At which point them living in the past would make sense. 

Except not only did the Dales have an entire population who followed the Creators, they had free mages in positions of authority who weren't controlled by templars (as Lanaya points out that many Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales). Orlais is an empire devoted to bringing everyone under the worship of the Maker, and putting mages under the control of the templars. It's not difficult to see why the Dales wouldn't open it's doors to their Orlesian neighbor, despite Emperor Drakon's demise.

Honestly, I don't think it's unreasonable that they would be wary of a growing power seeking to convert people to the Maker, and who also want to control mages in the name of their religion.

Furthermore, I don't think belief in the Maker or Andraste means the city-states followed the same religious beliefs as the Cult turned national religion that was imposed by Drakon, as we see with the Disciples of Andraste in Haven. As the developers addressed, there were different Cults of the Maker.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is nothing at all in the lore indicating that Orlais had any wish to attack the Dales, as a matter of fact, there is a lot speaking against that, since ALL of Orlais' expansion was in the opposite direction of the Dales. It would actually seem that Drakon was perfectly content with letting the Dales be, since he never actively clashed with the Dales.
And I think that it is a massive mistake to think that Drakon went about his conquest in some attempt to spread the Maker's word. He much more likely used the newly established Chantry to improve stability of newly conquered territories. The Chantry would most likely also be sued to bring clans, countries and territory into the Orlesian fold without violence, like for instance Drakon did with the Anderfels. Every human in those times worshipped the Maker, Drakon simply created the Chantry to better facilitate unification between all humans.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Well I liked the Dalish in Origins. And though some were hostile there were others that were grateful for the help we offered them. Then we have the ones in DA2...I killed them every playthrough lol

[LobselVith8]

Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches and conquered his neighbors to create the Orlesian Empire - his intent was a society under the worship of the Maker.

According to History of the Chantry: Part 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

[Dave of Canada]

teenparty wrote...

 The dalish have been clearly established as underdogs in Thedas. They've been mocked by two of our elf companions (Zevran and Fenris). In DA2 they were depicted even more negatively than in DAO. I feel we have so far been seeing them at their worst. Does anyone wish that we'll be able to help the dalish have some moment of glory during DA:I?

How can we make lawless brigands look good, though? Aside from turning themselves over to the Chantry to be placed into an Alienage, they deserve nothing but to be put to the sword or locked away. As long as they remain on human land, that is.

[TK514]

Dave of Canada wrote...

teenparty wrote...

 The dalish have been clearly established as underdogs in Thedas. They've been mocked by two of our elf companions (Zevran and Fenris). In DA2 they were depicted even more negatively than in DAO. I feel we have so far been seeing them at their worst. Does anyone wish that we'll be able to help the dalish have some moment of glory during DA:I?

How can we make lawless brigands look good, though? Aside from turning themselves over to the Chantry to be placed into an Alienage, they deserve nothing but to be put to the sword or locked away. As long as they remain on human land, that is.

paying some rent wouldn't hurt them that's for sure.  As it is, they're just trespassers and poachers.  In short, bandits, and they should be treated accordingly.

[Bad King]

Osena109 wrote...

 No the Dalish need to wake up and face reality there people were never  truely immortal and they cosed the war with the chantry  because they used blood magic to prolong there life's

It's highly unlikely that they used blood magic to extend their lives: according to their own lore and according to David Gaider (see swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.html - specifically his comments on elves), there seems to be a relationship between proximity to humans and age at death for elves. It was Tevinter blood magic that obliterated Arlathan: had the elves been blood mages, they would have had a fighting chance: as a result, the Dalish despise blood magic. If you side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish clan, the angry elf Panowen will not kill you (and will in fact reward you) if you tell her that you killed Zathrian because of his use of blood magic.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Furthermore, I don't think belief in the Maker or Andraste means the city-states followed the same religious beliefs as the Cult turned national religion that was imposed by Drakon, as we see with the Disciples of Andraste in Haven. As the developers addressed, there were different Cults of the Maker. 

To expand on this point, we in fact have good reasons to believe the opposite was true since it was the Orlesian Chantry that wrote the modern Chant and the standardized the current dogma the Chantry follows.

Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches and conquered his neighbors to create the Orlesian Empire - his intent was a society under the worship of the Maker.

Obviously the Chantry would say that about him. That doesn't mean Drakon was some sort of religious fanatic instead of just a regular ol' bloodthirsty warlord. More importantly, even if Drakon was the highest sort of religious loon, it certainly doesn't mean his succesors were religious fanatics. Certainly Orlais today, as a state, is not particularly tied to Chantry dogma as a matter of state policy. 

[In Exile]

Bad King wrote...
It's highly unlikely that they used blood magic to extend their lives: according to their own lore and according to David Gaider (see swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.html - specifically his comments on elves), there seems to be a relationship between proximity to humans and age at death for elves. It was Tevinter blood magic that obliterated Arlathan: had the elves been blood mages, they would have had a fighting chance: as a result, the Dalish despise blood magic. If you side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish clan, the angry elf Panowen will not kill you (and will in fact reward you) if you tell her that you killed Zathrian because of his use of blood magic. 

The interpretation of that statement by DG as the elves "recovering" immortality is directly contracted by Mary Kirby (http://social.biowar...ndex/16519770/2):

"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse." 

An explicit design goal of DA:O was to be ambiguous about religion and cosmology to replicate our own IRL position about these sort of universal truths. It is far more likely DG was being coy. 

[Iron Fist]

The Dalish mostly oppose the use of the blood magic. The few who do use it either keep it a secret or are exiled from their clans.

[Bad King]

In Exile wrote...

Bad King wrote...
It's highly unlikely that they used blood magic to extend their lives: according to their own lore and according to David Gaider (see swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.html - specifically his comments on elves), there seems to be a relationship between proximity to humans and age at death for elves. It was Tevinter blood magic that obliterated Arlathan: had the elves been blood mages, they would have had a fighting chance: as a result, the Dalish despise blood magic. If you side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish clan, the angry elf Panowen will not kill you (and will in fact reward you) if you tell her that you killed Zathrian because of his use of blood magic. 

The interpretation of that statement by DG as the elves "recovering" immortality is directly contracted by Mary Kirby (http://social.biowar...ndex/16519770/2):

"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse." 

An explicit design goal of DA:O was to be ambiguous about religion and cosmology to replicate our own IRL position about these sort of universal truths. It is far more likely DG was being coy. 

Or maybe they're simply confused about their own lore (like the Mass Effect writers), though I'd hope this isn't the case.

In regard to their lifespans, there is still considerable ambiguity if you take elves as being longer-lived when further away from humans: we still have no idea what the mechanics of it might be.

Modifié par Bad King, 21 janvier 2014 - 01:29 .

[Iron Fist]

Bad King wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Bad King wrote...
It's highly unlikely that they used blood magic to extend their lives: according to their own lore and according to David Gaider (see swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.html - specifically his comments on elves), there seems to be a relationship between proximity to humans and age at death for elves. It was Tevinter blood magic that obliterated Arlathan: had the elves been blood mages, they would have had a fighting chance: as a result, the Dalish despise blood magic. If you side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish clan, the angry elf Panowen will not kill you (and will in fact reward you) if you tell her that you killed Zathrian because of his use of blood magic. 

The interpretation of that statement by DG as the elves "recovering" immortality is directly contracted by Mary Kirby (http://social.biowar...ndex/16519770/2):

"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse." 

An explicit design goal of DA:O was to be ambiguous about religion and cosmology to replicate our own IRL position about these sort of universal truths. It is far more likely DG was being coy. 

Or maybe they're simply confused about their own lore (like the Mass Effect writers), though I'd hope this isn't the case.

This might be the case. Look at Bethesda. The Elder Scrolls series has been around since at least 1994 and even it is still confused about its own lore.

[LobselVith8]

Bad King wrote...

Or maybe they're simply confused about their own lore (like the Mass Effect writers), though I'd hope this isn't the case.

Yeah, Gaider and Kirby providing completely opposing statements about the longevity of the Dalish has never been clarified. And considering Malcolm Hawke's multiple backstories, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches and conquered his neighbors to create the Orlesian Empire - his intent was a society under the worship of the Maker.

According to History of the Chantry: Part 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

And who is the source of your quote? The Chantry? Oh, right right right.. And they couldn't possibly have ANY motivation to make Drakon appear as a righteous crusader, now could they?
You really need to improve your source criticism skills...
We are not doubting wether or not Drakon established the Chantry, we are doubting wether or not he was purely religiously motivated, or if he was actually a highly skileld statesman (which everything seems to suggest that he actually was).

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
That's what I mean when I say humans were biting at the bit to attack the elves. They could not do so on rumors alone, although they seem like they wish they could. I have my doubts about Red Crossing, but if it indeed happened, Orlesians pounced on the first confirmed elven attack as an excuse to declare open war, take the country, and forcibly convert its citizens. By their own admission.

You misunderstand. I'm not contesting that the Dalish account is that they were attacked by the Orlesians. I'm saying that the dispute was more complicated than that, because the Dalish in the end (a) repelled the invasion (if there was one) and ( retaliated in Orlais, with a string of very significant military victories, and the sacking of at least one major city (with all of the associated raping, killing and pillaging that implies). As a result, talking about the elves being victims at the start is problematic, even if we assume that Orlais started the fight. They obviously were victims by the end, though. That goes without saying. 

If Red Crossing happened, then the immediate fallout of that was a one-year line drive by the Dales into Orlesian territory that culimated in the sacking of one city and an army at the Gates of Val Royeaux. If the Red Crossing didn't happen, then we have the elves (justly?) retaliating for an invasion into their territory with an invasion. 

The problem with talking about who was moral/immoral in this conflict is that, before the sack of Harmishal, the Orlesians and Dalish had basically committed the same scale of war atrocities against each other, at least as far as we know. After the fall of the Dales, the Orlesians ramp up the insanity to 100 and become as bad as the Tevinters, but before that, its more muddled. 

* Speaking of which, why do you pounce on everything I say? I haven't been here for weeks, if not months, and you still jump at the chance to shred my every post same as before. I literally anticipate a rebuke from you every time I post on this forum.

We literally only interact in threads about the Dalish, were I take the opposite side. If we actually did a tally, I maybe respondend to you twice in this thread? So I'm not sure why you think I'm singling you out. Maybe because we agree on CEs, so we had a positive rapport at first, meaning I stand out more in your mind? 

[Fast Jimmy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Or maybe they're simply confused about their own lore (like the Mass Effect writers), though I'd hope this isn't the case.

Yeah, Gaider and Kirby providing completely opposing statements about the longevity of the Dalish has never been clarified. And considering Malcolm Hawke's multiple backstories, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.

In Ben We Trust.

[In Exile]

Bad King wrote...
Or maybe they're simply confused about their own lore (like the Mass Effect writers), though I'd hope this isn't the case.

Sure. It could be. But even if it were the case, we don't know which version is right. Which means that WOG isn't going to be a tiebreaker here. 

In regard to their lifespans, there is still considerable ambiguity if you take elves as being longer-lived when further away from humans: we still have no idea what the mechanics of it might be.

That's the first reason (and most promminet) reason to dismiss it as BS until proven otherwise, IMO. It's an insanely racist theory without evidence. 

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I prefer Kirby's interpretation.

Seems less silly and arbitrary.

Also doesn't have that whole "humans=bad" complex that fantasy writers have.

If anything, it has a "Qunari=good" vibe. Which I really love. The lore on one hand does everything to villify these guys, but then on another portrays them as a nearly infallible society.

Isn't that life in  a nutshell?