1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

In Exile wrote...

Bad King wrote...
In regard to their lifespans, there is still considerable ambiguity if you take elves as being longer-lived when further away from humans: we still have no idea what the mechanics of it might be.

That's the first reason (and most promminet) reason to dismiss it as BS until proven otherwise, IMO. It's an insanely racist theory without evidence. 

Perhaps, but is there any source in game that specifically critiques this viewpoint? I've mainly seen fan speculation about blood magic as the opposing viewpoint (which I find dubious).

[In Exile]

Bad King wrote...
Perhaps, but is there any source in game that specifically critiques this viewpoint? 

Not that I'm aware of, but the only people who ever care to talk about this are the Dalish. 

[Iron Fist]

Bad King wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Bad King wrote...
In regard to their lifespans, there is still considerable ambiguity if you take elves as being longer-lived when further away from humans: we still have no idea what the mechanics of it might be.

That's the first reason (and most promminet) reason to dismiss it as BS until proven otherwise, IMO. It's an insanely racist theory without evidence. 

Perhaps, but is there any source in game that specifically critiques this viewpoint? I've mainly seen fan speculation about blood magic as the opposing viewpoint (which I find dubious).

Yeah, who contradicts the immortality claim except enemies of the Dalish? And also has proof?

[In Exile]

MevenSelas wrote...
Yeah, who contradicts the immortality claim except enemies of the Dalish? And also has proof?

What do you mean? No one is contradicting their claims in-setting, because no one but the Dalish even thinks about this. There's no proof relating to the elves ever being immortal in-setting, other than a bunch of shades were the supposedly immortal elf was resting in DA:O. 

[Bad King]

In Exile wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...
Yeah, who contradicts the immortality claim except enemies of the Dalish? And also has proof?

What do you mean? No one is contradicting their claims in-setting, because no one but the Dalish even thinks about this. There's no proof relating to the elves ever being immortal in-setting, other than a bunch of shades were the supposedly immortal elf was resting in DA:O. 

I imagine there'd be plenty of Circle academics eager to research this; it's probably more likely that BioWare simply didn't think of adding an opposing viewpoint when they made the games.

[lady_v23]

At first I thought you meant literally an image boost.

anyway.. This sounds horrible, but I kinda of hate the dalish? I'm pretty sure my inquisitor will have lots of fun with them.

Modifié par lady_v23, 21 janvier 2014 - 01:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...
Yeah, who contradicts the immortality claim except enemies of the Dalish? And also has proof?

What do you mean? No one is contradicting their claims in-setting, because no one but the Dalish even thinks about this. There's no proof relating to the elves ever being immortal in-setting, other than a bunch of shades were the supposedly immortal elf was resting in DA:O. 

Actually those ghosts are of humans. So not even they are even remotely related to the Elven Immortality subject. So pretty much the only evidence the Dalish got of tehir claim, is that it is "because they said so".

[Iron Fist]

In Exile wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...
Yeah, who contradicts the immortality claim except enemies of the Dalish? And also has proof?

What do you mean? No one is contradicting their claims in-setting, because no one but the Dalish even thinks about this. There's no proof relating to the elves ever being immortal in-setting, other than a bunch of shades were the supposedly immortal elf was resting in DA:O.

I just think someone would want to know if this is true or not. Since there's no evidence to the contrary, they might have been immortal at some point. Or at least long lived.

Surely when the humans first came to Thedas, their diseases affected the elves in new and startling ways. The two races had developed separately for throusands of years, after all.

The elven race is apparently dying out, for whatever reason. Gaider describes the elves as genetically adaptive.

Maybe their supposed immortality was meant to counteract that.

[Iron Fist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

And I used to have wings.  Since there's no evidence to the contrary, I might have had wings at one point.

X-rays might disprove that claim actually. 

EntropicAngel wrote...

There's something called the "burden of proof." When one makes a claim, the "burden of proof" rests on them to give evidence for their claim. The Dalish have not done so, thus a counter-argument isn't even necessary. As far as Dragon Age is concerned, the Dalish have always been as short-lived as everyone else but claim that it used to be different with nothing to back them up.

Fair enough.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also want to point out that your link doesn't lead to a Gaider quote at all, and that "genetically adaptive" actually means that the elves would NOT be dying out.

Sorry about that.

David Gaider wrote...

The child of elf-blooded humans and an elf is another elf-blooded human. Whether or not such a line would eventually become more "elven" is unknown -- the elf-blooded don't tend to distinguish themselves as a group for cultural reasons, and more often then not find themselves living amongst humans rather than elves. Saying that elves have recessive genes obviously isn't the answer -- I said a long time ago on the forums that elven genetics were "adaptive", but that's just an attempt to explain the phenomenon since people were insisting on talking about genetics. The elves don't know why it happens, and there's no understanding of genetics in the world to explain it... if that would even be the reason. More likely it has a supernatural origin relating to the nature of the elves themselves, though what that might be and whether or not the elves were truly once the immortals they claim simply isn't known.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 21 janvier 2014 - 02:31 .

[Bad King]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

I just think someone would want to know if this is true or not. Since there's no evidence to the contrary, they might have been immortal at some point. Or at least long lived.

Surely when the humans first came to Thedas, their diseases affected the elves in new and startling ways. The two races had developed separately for throusands of years, after all.

The elven race is apparently dying out, for whatever reason. Gaider describes the elves as genetically adaptive.

Maybe their supposed immortality was meant to counteract that.

And I used to have wings.  Since there's no evidence to the contrary, I might have had wings at one point.

There's something called the "burden of proof." When one makes a claim, the "burden of proof" rests on them to give evidence for their claim. The Dalish have not done so, thus a counter-argument isn't even necessary. As far as Dragon Age is concerned, the Dalish have always been as short-lived as everyone else but claim that it used to be different with nothing to back them up.

IRL I'd agree with you, but in a game universe we're constantly fed information without being given any evidence for it and so often we need to accept claims with some faith or else we'd probably end up disregarding much of the lore. I'd be far more sceptical of this claim if there were alternative hypotheses presented in the game to show that within the game world there are those sceptical of this idea.

For now, I consider the claim to be possibly legit based on the histories of the Dalish and will value it over fanmade explanations until explanations I feel are better are presented in the game universe or until new evidence is shown to further confirm this idea.

[ames4u]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If the Dalish stopped living in "the past glory of their people" and sought a cultural identity outside of bitter racism and cultural stagnation - then maybe I'd find them in some way interesting.

I prefer the City Elves - and would rather see them make something of themselves.

This; the Dalish are even bigger racists than the humans. Then there is the ostracising and mocking city elves just because they chose to adapt instead of wandering from place to place as their 'pure blooded people' dwindle. I don't think the Dalish quite understand the position they are in. They lack power, prestige and political pull because they refuse to play nice with the other races, so they clearly can't do much to begin with.

I liked them in the first game, which had it's issues but they didn't behave like idiots and even Velanna's clan in Awakening show more sense than anyone else-but DA2 jumped the shark in ****holish behaviour.

Modifié par ames4u, 21 janvier 2014 - 02:38 .

[Mirrman70]

I think the Dalish and City Elves are both wrong and will only lead their race to ruin. The Dalish refusal to abandon their traditions leads to an inability to adapt as a whole and the City Elves initial willingness to become second-class citizens has led to an inability to take initiative as a group. certain individuals among each group might not exhibit these traits but that doesn't mean that collective identities of each group don't have them. Ideally the Dalish willing to adapt and the City Elves willing to take the initiative should come together and form a separate group that seeks Elven independence as well as coexistence. Neither group by themselves are capable of overcoming their nature and only through casting out their cultural identities and becoming unified will they stand a chance.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, I don't blame the Arlathan elves because the Tevinter humans became focused on enslavement and conquest; I blame Tevinter for that. And I'm not even going to address your example because it isn't even remotely relevant to this discussion.[/quote]

It is entirely relevant.  People who take no action to protect themselves from the dangers of the world do not deserve sympathy.  Arlathan blinded itself to the rise of a power that could rival it, and eventually surpass it.  Is it so hard for you to acknowledge that that was a case of poor judgement on their part? [/quote]

I guess I'm just one of those people who blame the nation of slavers for enslaving people, rather than the people who were enslaved.[/quote]'

And I'm the guy who blames the person texting on their phone for not spotting the on coming car.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. The dwarves are the only ones who can safely mine lyrium, have the sole monopoly on lyrium, and mostly live underground, away from human society. I don't get the continued comparisons with the dwarves when the comparisons are so different.[/quote]

Because they're not different.  Where the Dwarves live and what monopoly they hold has nothing to do with how they are perceived by the general populace.  They are physiologically different and flat out reject Andrastianism but we see no instances of Dwarves being forced to live in slums, or denied work, or treated poorly by law enforcement.  None of these things have anything to do with Lyrium or the fact the Dwarves live underground.  The Dwarves as a collective have given the general populace a reason to not run them off, not because they live in a fortress or have lyrium, but because they're craftsmen, and warriors, and merchants.  The Elves, specifically the Dalish, have brought nothing to the table, so no one has any reason to tolerate having them around. [/quote]

There are elven craftsmen, merchants, and even Grey Wardens[/quote]

Name 3.  Name or point out (if names aren't given) 3 elves who work as either craftsmen or merchants outside the Dalish.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Your insistence on glossing over the dwarves mainly living underground and dealing with (arguably) the most valuable item in all of Thedas doesn't change the fact that the situation with the dwarves is entirely different than the situation of the elves. It's intellectually dishonest to act as though their situations are hardly any different from each other.[/quote]

Ok I'm going to try this one more time.  Where they live, and what they have, are national factors.  They're reasons governments and the Chantry tolerate them.  We are talking about social intolerance which ultimately boils down to social factors.  Farmer Joe doesn't care about where the Dwarves live or whether they have lyrium.  In all respects the Dwarves and Elves have the same social factors levelled against them, the difference is Dwarves have gone out of their way to demonstrate they're worth having around, while the elves haven't.  As far as the common folk are concerned the Elves aren't good for anything and the Dalish are dangerously violent.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
When you factor the threats to convert made by Andrastians against the Sabrae clan and templars pursuing the clans, it's not too difficult to understand why the Dalish would be wary of strangers. There are also the lynch mobs against mages, and how elves are viewed as less than people by many humans - as Duncan points out. The nomadic lifestyle of the Dalish is a matter of survival.[/quote]

It's also a violation of other people's private property.  The Dalish recognize themselves as unwelcome intruders but do nothing, absolutely nothing, to change that perception of themselves.  The Dalish have to keep moving because everywhere they go they pick fights with much larger forces. [/quote]

When the law prohibits an entire race of people from their culture and religion simply because Chantry law acts as though everyone should be religiously Andrastian, I don't think the law should be respected. And since the Dalish aren't going to convert to the Chantry, it's a moot point.[/quote]

Again this is not about the Chantry.  People aren't intolerant of the Elves because the Chantry tells them to be, they're intolerant to Elves because they've no reason not to be.  The Dalish threaten people on their own land for coming too close to a clan they had no way of knowing was there.  That's not conducive to civil relations.  And as I've said before as the party with the most to gain by improving relations with human nations it falls to the Dalish to be the first to extend an olive branch.

City Elves on the other hand aspire to nothing because they believe, by and large, that they can never improve their lot.  You know what they say about never trying.

Real world example here.  Where I live people are far more intolerant of Americans than they are of Indians (people from India not Native Americans).  There are far fewer Americans than Indians, and America has a lot more of the things we want.  They are the Dwarves in this situation, so according to your criteria we should be far more tolerant of the Americans than the Indians, so why not?  Because nobody cares about that, what they care about is that when they do meet Americans (visitors or people who've moved from their) they're usually arrogant jerks, where as Indians are usually polite and friendly.

This may not hold true all the time but it's the common perception where I live, and that's what generates the intolerance.  Economics and geography don't factor into it.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You must have played a different version of Origins than everyone else on the planet, since the Dalish do honor the treaty and aid in the Battle of Denerim (if your Warden sided with them or helped end the curse that immobilized the clan).[/quote]

Yes if you drag them kicking and screaming they will but when you approach them and say, "I have a treaty you have to help me." their initial response is to refuse. [/quote]

You don't coerce Zathrian's clan into it; many of their hunters were attacked by werewolves, and they are tending to the injuried and infected, which is why it's addressed that they can't initially help.[/quote]

You're right you don't, they extort you.  They hold their obligation hostage until you do their dirty work.  Yes many of their hunters are wounded but they could still help.  They wouldn't be able to contribute much but they could still contribute.  You've mistaken why they won't help you for why they can't.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Because Orlais was invading their neighbors and forcing conversion to the Maker in a series of Exalted Marches by Drakon, and the Dales remained a nation of elves who followed the Creators? Just a thought.[/quote]

You said there was nothing in the Dalish lore to suggest they'd refuse to work with humans, I pointed out the entire history of the Dales.  The Dales stood for 300 years and not once did they attempt any kind of relations with human nations, and they bordered 3.  [/quote]

The Dales bordered Orlais and the Frostback Mountains, and my point was that elven lore doesn't prohibit the Dalish to have contact with humans.[/quote]

Orlais to the west, the Almarri tribes to the east, and the Free Marches across the sea to the south.  Any of which they could have easily had dealings with if they wished.  Elven lore does prohibit it though because they believe contact with humans robs them of their immortality, which they desperately want back.  You can't maintain an alliance with people you refuse to meet because they bring disease and death.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
You can't blame 300 years of history on the actions of a man who's max life expectancy was probably 75. [/quote]

And yet, Drakon's legacy of invasion and conquest has lived on with the Orlesian Empire.[/quote]

Your point?  Either the Dalish attitude towards all humans, the attitude that is the root of most of their problems, existed long before or persisted long after Drakon's death.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Well, Orlais had the Chantry, and an independent Dales could have the Inquisition. If it protects the elven kingdom from being invaded in an attempt at forced conversion, I don't see the problem.[/quote]

Except the Chantry was formed as part of the Orlesian political system.  What you're proposing is an independent goon force threaten to beat on anyone the Dalish happen to ****** off.  Which will be pretty much anyone who tries to deal with them or is forced to live close. [/quote]

Protecting the religious and cultural freedom of the elves from invaders who would try to subjugate and convert them wouldn't make the Inquisition a "goon squad".[/quote]

It does when you're protecting the religious and cultural freedom of a group that, inadvertently perhaps, picks fights with every non-elf they encounter.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Edit: Not to mention the Chantry has rarely, if ever, fought Orlais' battles for them.  The Chantry may have supported the Orlesian occupation of Fereldan but at no point did the rebellion find themselves fighting Chantry Templars alongside Orlesian Chevaliers[/quote]

Orlais has their own army. However, the Exalted Marches are evidence of the Chantry using religion to mobilize troops against an enemy.[/quote]

True, but that's the Chantry using religion to mobilize against their enemies, not Orlais using the Chantry to use religion to mobilize trrops against their enemies.  Which, in case you think to suggest otherwise is not the same thing.  The number of times Orlais has gone to war without the Chantry lending anything more than validation far outweigh the number of times they've rallied forces on mass to aid an Orlesian conquest.

The Chantry didn't call an Exalted March until the Dalish had pushed to Val Royeaux and were looking to sack the seat of the Divine.  You can argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that this could have been Orlais saying, "Ok we're losing call in reinforcements." but it strikes me more as the Dalish, having pushed that far and seeming to not regard them as a separate entity, had made it the Chantry's fight.

The Imperial Chantry was a direct assault on the authourity of the Divine and in response she mobilized what forces she could.  That was entirely the Chantry's fight, not Orlais using them to flex it's might.

Finally the Qunari, again a direct assault on the Chantry as they came not just to conquer but convert, again Orlais did not use them to gain an advantage in a matter that was purely theirs.

[Iron Fist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

That doesn't say anything about elves dying out. But by this time I'm not sure how that relates to anything else.

Elves can only be produced by other elves, unlike humans and dwarves.

Besides dwarves, they are the least populous race in Thedas. At some point, the pool will dry up. No more elves...

If they had once been immortal, then this probably wasn't a problem.

[Iron Fist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

That's silly. By the same token, Dwarves are only produced by Dwarves and they'll die out, same for Qunari.

The fact that each race only reproduces with its own kind has nothing to do with dying out. Elves not reproducing, or sequestering themselves into inbred communities, has everything to do with it.

Gaider has said that elf-human and elf-dwarf unions produce humans and dwarves respectively.

The only way to produce an elf is an elf-elf union.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MevenSelas wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

That's silly. By the same token, Dwarves are only produced by Dwarves and they'll die out, same for Qunari.

The fact that each race only reproduces with its own kind has nothing to do with dying out. Elves not reproducing, or sequestering themselves into inbred communities, has everything to do with it.

Gaider has said that elf-human and elf-dwarf unions produce humans and dwarves respectively.

The only way to produce an elf is an elf-elf union.

So? Are you of the opinion that Elves usually couple with members of other races than their own?

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I prefer Kirby's interpretation.

Seems less silly and arbitrary.

Also doesn't have that whole "humans=bad" complex that fantasy writers have. 

That seems to be the approach for most posters who hate the Dalish.

And it isn't the quickening that painted humans in a bad light, it was the slavery.

[Iron Fist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

That still doesn't mean elves will be dying out. It simply means that elves need to mate more often than they die, and with each other--two things most severely limited by their nomadic nature, not the fact that they don't make half-species'.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So? Are you of the opinion that Elves usually couple with members of other races than their own?

I'll answer both of you.

The lack of a permanent independent home means that elves will continue to either be nomadic refugees (the Dalish), cloistered in ghettoes (city elves), or slaves (in Tevinter).

These don't seem like situations that are conducive to positive growth for elves. Either inbreeding or crossbreeding will become more common over time, leading to increasing numbers of infertile and non-elven children.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 21 janvier 2014 - 03:32 .