1258 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

ames4u wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

If the Dalish stopped living in "the past glory of their people" and sought a cultural identity outside of bitter racism and cultural stagnation - then maybe I'd find them in some way interesting. 

I prefer the City Elves - and would rather see them make something of themselves. 

This; the Dalish are even bigger racists than the humans.

Considering the treatment of the elves in the human nations, I'm going to strongly disagree with you.

ames4u wrote...

Then there is the ostracising and mocking city elves just because they chose to adapt instead of wandering from place to place as their 'pure blooded people' dwindle.

You mean the people who didn't want to surrender their religious beliefs or culture, which was criminalized in the Andrastian kingdoms, and who took in humans like Aveline and Feynriel?

And I take it you have no problem with the Alienage elves denigrating the Dalish elves?

ames4u wrote...

I don't think the Dalish quite understand the position they are in. They lack power, prestige and political pull because they refuse to play nice with the other races, so they clearly can't do much to begin with.

I don't recall the Alienage elves having power, prestige, or political pull. I do recall the purges, the lack of rights, and the blatant racism, however.

ames4u wrote...

I liked them in the first game, which had it's issues but they didn't behave like idiots and even Velanna's clan in Awakening show more sense than anyone else-but DA2 jumped the shark in ****holish behaviour. 

Considering the depiction of mages and templars, that's a discussion for another forum.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 janvier 2014 - 03:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MevenSelas wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

That still doesn't mean elves will be dying out. It simply means that elves need to mate more often than they die, and with each other--two things most severely limited by their nomadic nature, not the fact that they don't make half-species'.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So? Are you of the opinion that Elves usually couple with members of other races than their own?

I'll answer both of you.

The lack of a permanent independent home means that elves will continue to either be nomadic refugees (the Dalish), cloistered in ghettoes (city elves), or slaves (in Tevinter).

These don't seem like situations that are conducive to positive growth for elves. Either inbreeding or crossbreeding will become more common over time, leading to increasing numbers of infertile and non-elven children.

Considering the low posistion in society Elves generally hold, interbreeding will mot likely NOT become a major issue in the near future. Elves does, and probably forever will, generally couple with other Elves, just like humans mostly couple with other humans, and Dwarves with Dwarves. The Elves as a race isn't said to be in decline anywhere either, to my knowledge anyway, the Dalish as a people on the other hand, I recall being said was declining. And for obvious reasons, they consist of small nomadic clans, who only meet once every ten years, so inbreeding is bound to happen, and since the genetic pool of the Dalish Elves were small to begin with, their lifestyle is certainly not helping their population grow.

[Iron Fist]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering the low posistion in society Elves generally hold, interbreeding will mot likely NOT become a major issue in the near future. Elves does, and probably forever will, generally couple with other Elves, just like humans mostly couple with other humans, and Dwarves with Dwarves. The Elves as a race isn't said to be in decline anywhere either, to my knowledge anyway, the Dalish as a people on the other hand, I recall being said was declining. And for obvious reasons, they consist of small nomadic clans, who only meet once every ten years, so inbreeding is bound to happen, and since the genetic pool of the Dalish Elves were small to begin with, their lifestyle is certainly not helping their population grow.

City elves have arranged marriages for the sake of perpetuating the race. Clearly, they fear decline too.

[Iron Fist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

I'll answer both of you.

The lack of a permanent independent home means that elves will continue to either be nomadic refugees (the Dalish), cloistered in ghettoes (city elves), or slaves (in Tevinter).

These don't seem like situations that are conducive to positive growth for elves. Either inbreeding or crossbreeding will become more common over time, leading to increasing numbers of infertile and non-elven children.

Exactly--those things (refugees, Alienages)--are potential reasons for the elves to die out, not their crossbreeding.

It has already been established by Gaider that crossbreeding (elf-human and elf-dwarf) doesn't produce elven children.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches and conquered his neighbors to create the Orlesian Empire - his intent was a society under the worship of the Maker.

According to History of the Chantry: Part 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

And who is the source of your quote? The Chantry? Oh, right right right.. And they couldn't possibly have ANY motivation to make Drakon appear as a righteous crusader, now could they?
You really need to improve your source criticism skills...
We are not doubting wether or not Drakon established the Chantry, we are doubting wether or not he was purely religiously motivated, or if he was actually a highly skileld statesman (which everything seems to suggest that he actually was).

To answer the question at the beginning, the writer of the History of the Chantry, while a chanry scholar, is Brother Genitivi, and he goes out of his way to try and be as factual as possible in other codex entries, so I would say this codex is pretty reliable. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

MevenSelas wrote...

City elves have arranged marriages for the sake of perpetuating the race. Clearly, they fear decline too.

Could also jsut be a cultural aspect. Arranged marriages also serve the purpose of preserving family names. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure that is the ONLY purpose of arranged marriages.

MevenSelas wrote...

It has already been established by Gaider that crossbreeding (elf-human and elf-dwarf) doesn't produce elven children.

Elves who couple with a person of another race is already rare, so this aspect of their race is NOT a reason for them to be in decline.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That seems to be the approach for most posters who hate the Dalish.

And it isn't the quickening that painted humans in a bad light, it was the slavery.

Lol. I don't know any posters, off the top of my head, who "hate the Dalish." It just makes absolutely no sense that being NEAR someone would limit your lifespan. It's nonsense. No scientific explanation, no magical explanation.

You claim that it didn't paint the humans in a bad light, but its very existence paints the humans in a bad light.

An amusing quote: "You, sir! YOU, are a blight!"

It makes as much sense as anything else magical in Dragon Age. I have my own doubts that the Elves were ever immortal but Bioware could just as easily make the elven stories of the Quickening be true.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 janvier 2014 - 04:13 .

[Iron Fist]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Seeing as how high reproduction is typically a part of poor minorities in"ghetto" areas*, yeah I don't see this as a problem either. Seen no evidence of it ingame.

Ghettoes are also plagued by an increasing lack of resources, lower health standards, and higher crime.

Since city elves have limited freedom of movement, the infant mortality rate is probably high.

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It makes as much sense as anything else magical in Dragon Age. I have my own doubts that the Elves were ever immortal but Bioware could just as easily make the elven stories of the Quickening be true.

The elves being immortal once isn't a problem - lots of fantasy settings play around with that, and even in their own lore the elves were never really "immortal" in the sense that they couldn't die, just that they effectively couldn't die of old age (but not even that was really correct). 

The problem is basing it all on what is possibly the most racist justification in a mainstream work of fantasy. So far, what the Dalish believe in setting is really, really racist in setting. IRL we just debate it. If the devs choose - for whatever reason - to make that cannon truth, then their work basically becomes racist IRL, by pretty much endorsing the view of "racial contamination" which only racist nutters believe in IRL. 

Modifié par In Exile, 21 janvier 2014 - 04:34 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The thing though would be that in our world it is nonsense, but if it were to actually be true in Thedas, then it wouldn't really be racist of the Dalish to claim it, since it would be true.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except not only did the Dales have an entire population who followed the Creators, they had free mages in positions of authority who weren't controlled by templars (as Lanaya points out that many Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales). Orlais is an empire devoted to bringing everyone under the worship of the Maker, and putting mages under the control of the templars. It's not difficult to see why the Dales wouldn't open it's doors to their Orlesian neighbor, despite Emperor Drakon's demise.

Honestly, I don't think it's unreasonable that they would be wary of a growing power seeking to convert people to the Maker, and who also want to control mages in the name of their religion.

Furthermore, I don't think belief in the Maker or Andraste means the city-states followed the same religious beliefs as the Cult turned national religion that was imposed by Drakon, as we see with the Disciples of Andraste in Haven. As the developers addressed, there were different Cults of the Maker.

See.... this I buy. This is a more much reasonable cause for the Dales to oppose
Orlais. The Orlesians willing to export their way of life and the Dalish seeing it as a threat to theirs.

Add that the Elves might be concerned that the Orlesians might
be drunk on their own victory and prepared to go to war over trivial
things. Throw in the spectre of Arlathan into the mix and we have a perfect recipe for a Dales that would view the Orlais of 2:00-2:05 with concern and hostility.

Much better than having them be afraid of the ghost of Drakon

Modifié par Sir JK, 21 janvier 2014 - 04:56 .

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The thing though would be that in our world it is nonsense, but if it were to actually be true in Thedas, then it wouldn't really be racist of the Dalish to claim it, since it would be true.

Well, it would still be racist if the Dalish believe they're intrisically worth more or huamns are worth less because of the difference. Even if IRL there were real differences between groups, it's still racist to associate those differences with worth. 

[cjones91]

So let me get this straight...if the Dalish were proven to be immortal in the past it would be racist because humans may have shortened their life spans by being in contact?That's really stretching to paint something as racist when it really isn't.

[LobselVith8]

cjones91 wrote...

So let me get this straight...if the Dalish were proven to be immortal in the past it would be racist because humans may have shortened their life spans by being in contact?That's really stretching to paint something as racist when it really isn't.

It's apparently racist because some people conflate it with real world racism, even though it's a fantasy example that has no genuine real world equivalent. It's no different than how some felt that it was racist to point out that the children of elves and humans are technically human.

[EmperorSahlertz]

EntropicAngel wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The thing though would be that in our world it is nonsense, but if it were to actually be true in Thedas, then it wouldn't really be racist of the Dalish to claim it, since it would be true.

Racism has nothing to do with being true or not. It refers to an imbalance in the intrinsic physical qualities of each race.

It's racist in the same way that dwarves not having magic is racist, though the dwarves have a huge benefit to make up for their deficiency (able to work with lyrium, which brings a lot of income--I would also say magic resistance but not sure if that's actually true within the lore outside of gameplay).

Humans causing immortal elves to become mortal is racist and one-sided.

So because Gorillas are naturally physically stronger than humans, they are all racists? I'm sorry taht doesn't make any sense.
Racism is a sense of superiority of race. Or more acurately the distinct inferiority of other races. It wouldn't be racist if humans ACTUALLY caused the Elves to lose their immortality.

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The thing though would be that in our world it is nonsense, but if it were to actually be true in Thedas, then it wouldn't really be racist of the Dalish to claim it, since it would be true.

Well, it would still be racist if the Dalish believe they're intrisically worth more or huamns are worth less because of the difference. Even if IRL there were real differences between groups, it's still racist to associate those differences with worth. 

Yes, of course. If the Elves believes themselves superior to humans, because of the Elven immortality, then THAT would be racist.

[The Hierophant]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yes, of course. If the Elves believes themselves superior to humans, because of the Elven immortality, then THAT would be racist.

Combine that with Shemlen being used as a derogatory term to note a human's short life span in comparison to the elves', the implications seem unpleasant.

On the flipside the devs wouldn't have to waste resources on including the Dalish in future titles if it's confirmed that contact with humans shortens their lifespans. 

It'a a win win situation since Elven Immortality theorists would be proven right while the devs would have a story given reason to exclude the Dalish from future titles so that more focus could be granted to the other races.

Magical fantasy eugenics + racial segregation = awesome.[/sarcasm]

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 janvier 2014 - 06:31 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I think the answer is yes, distinguishing between "belief" and "fact". It could be true that Group X, on average, has a greater ability than Group Y, but it would only be racist if Group X then believed that this difference made them more worthy (or Group Y less worthy) of regard or worth. 

But now you're talking about a different belief - the belief that one group is more worthy of regard.

But back to the belief about ability, can that belief be racist if that belief is true?

I would argue no.  If the humans are destroying or severely damaging the elves as a species, then it isn't racist for elves to think humans are a vile pestilence.