1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The thing though would be that in our world it is nonsense, but if it were to actually be true in Thedas, then it wouldn't really be racist of the Dalish to claim it, since it would be true.

Well, it would still be racist if the Dalish believe they're intrisically worth more or huamns are worth less because of the difference. Even if IRL there were real differences between groups, it's still racist to associate those differences with worth.

I don't see why.  Worth stems from some characteristic (or set of characteristics).  Why not that one?

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...

So let me get this straight...if the Dalish were proven to be immortal in the past it would be racist because humans may have shortened their life spans by being in contact?That's really stretching to paint something as racist when it really isn't.

No. It would be racist if the Dalish believe that, as a race, they're better than humans because of it. If individual elves believe they're superior to humans because of immortality that wouldn't be racist, that'd just be arrogance, like Lebron thinkin he's better than people for being rich. 

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But now you're talking about a different belief - the belief that one group is more worthy of regard.

But back to the belief about ability, can that belief be racist if that belief is true?

It depends. For example, even if the Dalish belief were true as a matter of fact, the basis they have for believing it to be true would still matter. Having incontrovertible proof is different from having no proof. 

I would argue no.  If the humans are destroying or severely damaging the elves as a species, then it isn't racist for elves to think humans are a vile pestilence. 

I'd disagree. Even if it were true that the presence of humans eliminated elven immortality, it's a value judgement that this damages the elven species. But even if it were absolutely true that eliminating elven immortality damaged or destroyed the elves as a species, it still wouldn't necessarily follow that this makes the humans vile pestilence.

There's a lot of moral evaluation (i.e., worthy of regard) in the assesment. 

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I don't see why.  Worth stems from some characteristic (or set of characteristics).  Why not that one?

Worth isn't some objective feature of the world. It's a social construct. 

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
In case you didn't know, the Dalish are divided into clans that each have different views about humans.

And within each of those clans, members disagree with each other.

Like how humans are divided into nations, towns, etc. that each have different views about elves and who can disagree with each other? This thread is all about broad strokes generalization.  

[Grieving Natashina]

Not all of us have been doing broad strokes generlizations.  Some posters, including myself, have admitted that the elves' worst enemy is really themselves.  I'm not going to dismiss the state of their culture, since it is in a horrific spot with no doubt.  I'm not going to ignore their treatment by the humans, as some of what is allowed to happen is well...inhumane.  

I know that both sides have part in the beginning of the conflict.  Many pages in the thread has been revolving around the Blame Game.

I no longer care who started it.

Maybe if the elves stopped being divided so much among themselves, they can improve their lot. Also, if they communicated with the groups of humans that did support their rights (they do exist guys,) their lives might improve.  I'm not asking them to kiss the Chantry's ass, but I am asking them to actually talk to the humans that want to see the elves get a better deal.  

Shoot, I think the elves biggest problem, more than anything else, is poor communitication.

My Inquisitior has this to say (in a mom's tone of voice,) "I don't care who started it!  If you two don't knock it off, I'm going to come back there and give you something to cry about."

Modifié par Starsyn, 21 janvier 2014 - 07:37 .

[Mirrman70]

are elves a separate race or species? cause that would be a very important distinction and would eliminate the idea of racism and replace it with species-ism which is harder to relate to seeing as we as real life humans have never dealt with an equally sentient species. as such the idea of to races that require the same resources to develop hate towards each other and seek the removal of the other is natural. at this point you have to consider that arguably the humans are the most numerous of the two and with the physical and magical abilities being for all intents and purposes being somewhat equal (with one holding some slight superiority of the other in some aspects) the humans are naturally favored to come out on top due to having higher populations and the advantage of crossbreeding producing more humans. thus if you look at it as two separate species the humans have the advantage and thus it is natural for humans to be the dominant of the two.

[Mirrman70]

well clearly you don't believe in survival of the fittest then. Dog eat dog world.

[Grieving Natashina]

Mirrman70 wrote...

are elves a separate race or species? cause that would be a very important distinction and would eliminate the idea of racism and replace it with species-ism which is harder to relate to seeing as we as real life humans have never dealt with an equally sentient species. as such the idea of to races that require the same resources to develop hate towards each other and seek the removal of the other is natural. at this point you have to consider that arguably the humans are the most numerous of the two and with the physical and magical abilities being for all intents and purposes being somewhat equal (with one holding some slight superiority of the other in some aspects) the humans are naturally favored to come out on top due to having higher populations and the advantage of crossbreeding producing more humans. thus if you look at it as two separate species the humans have the advantage and thus it is natural for humans to be the dominant of the two.

Wow.  Just wow.  I read your follow up post as well.  

I think you failed to learn the following words at any time of your life:

Empathy

em·pa·thy noun \\ˈem-pə-thē\\:

the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings

 : the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also :  the capacity for this

Humane

hu·mane adjective \\hyü-ˈmān, yü-\\:

kind or gentle to people or animals

: marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for people or animals

Modifié par Starsyn, 21 janvier 2014 - 08:37 .

[The Hierophant]

Mirrman70 has a point.

In contrast to the elves of other fictional verses DA's elves seem like an evolutionary dead end. Human + elf, and dwarf + elf relations always results in human and dwarf newborns respectively, while it's likely the same for a Qunari pairing. Plus they've been culturally dominated for over a millennia.

It's like the elves were cursed with weak or submissive genes or are actually the official victim race of DA.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wasn't there hints from the devs that there might be a mystical explanation for that?

Perhaps that's related to losing their immortality? Maybe the stories of the quickening are allegory for that?

[spirosz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Wasn't there hints from the devs that there might be a mystical explanation for that?

Perhaps that's related to losing their immortality? Maybe the stories of the quickening are allegory for that?

I believe so, on the bolded. 

[Mirrman70]

It's not that I don't have empathy or don't believe in being humane. I just tend to be both cynical and a bit of a realist. There is very little evidence of a modern unified elf identity and the two main ones have a distrust for each other. The elves haven't had a homeland of their own since the Dales and they practiced the idea of isolationism which never ends well for any nation. As a species they have consistently made bad decisions that have worse long term effects. the best bet for survival as a species is the elimination of both Dalish and City Elf culture and creating a new identity that's goal is too find coexistence with humanity without the need for elves being automatically made second-class. however the likelihood of this is extremely considering historical evidence. On the human side of the equation you have humans that are also of the same economic level as the elves and that is what leads to the biggest source of "racism". It is a basic need for virtually all humans, real or not, to possess some level of dominance over others, whether its real dominance or simply perceived dominance. Taking this into consideration and comparing the relationship between Humans and Qunari it is very reasonable to assume that all this hate between species is due to a refusal to adapt culturally by both the elves and humans. unless both sides seek cohabitation without isolation, the elves are doomed to eventual either extinction or becoming generation by generation more content with a servile position.

[Pasquale1234]

The Hierophant wrote...

In contrast to the elves of other fictional verses DA's elves seem like an evolutionary dead end. Human + elf, and dwarf + elf relations always results in human and dwarf newborns respectively, while it's likely the same for a Qunari pairing. Plus they've been culturally dominated for over a millennia.

It's like the elves were cursed with weak or submissive genes or are actually the official victim race of DA.

I have been thinking similar thoughts.

The other races seem to have some characteristics that give them unique advantages:

Dwarves - have access to and work with lyrium, smith / craft guilds, masterful builders, deep roads sovereignty, and also have some population and influence on the surface.

Qunari - Single-minded culture of philosophical unity where each member is expected to fulfill a specific role, advanced technologies, disciplined and tenacious, with long-term plans to spread their influence.

Humans - Largest population, no apparent weaknesses.

Elves - ...? 

They seem quite proud of their craftsmanship, though I've not found the equipment they produce to be any better than anything else in the games.  They're fragmented, living in pockets within city alienages as well as multiple nomadic clans - and in some places, enslaved.  The only racial advantage they might have had is immortality.

It could make for an interesting twist to find out that they actually did once have immortality and lost it due to something else that happened at about the same time they established contact with humans, so they blamed it on the wrong cause.

In any case, I really hope we might learn something new about Elves in Thedas, something that could help them establish a stronger identity as something other than the race everyone else picks on.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't see why.  Worth stems from some characteristic (or set of characteristics).  Why not that one?

Worth isn't some objective feature of the world. It's a social construct.

Since reasonable people can disagree about the source of that worth, it seems more like an individual construct.

If it must be social, then I would deem the concept valuless.

[CybAnt1]

They seem quite proud of their craftsmanship, though I've not found the equipment they produce to be any better than anything else in the games.  

They have ironbark. Ironbark does not seem to be needed by non-elves as much as say, lyrium, nor are people as anxious to learn its secrets as, say, Qunari blackpowder. 

And yes, nothing they make from ironbark is the "awesomeist," just in terms of in-game items. It's kinda this gameworld's mithril - lighter than other materials, and also stronger. 

Oh and as I keep repeating, they apparently used to know something .... about the eluvians. The Tevinters managed to use the eluvians to teleport to places around Thedas. But the elves used to know the secret of apparently using them to go some place "beyond the Fade" ... wherever that is.

Whatever it is they knew, Witch Hunt indicates at least one person has rediscovered it ... Morrigan. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 21 janvier 2014 - 07:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't see why.  Worth stems from some characteristic (or set of characteristics).  Why not that one?

Worth isn't some objective feature of the world. It's a social construct.

Since reasonable people can disagree about the source of that worth, it seems more like an individual construct.

If it must be social, then I would deem the concept valuless.

Even if the immortality was real, evidence has shown that hundreds of years of isolation didn't return it. What kind of timetable would there even be to do a test on this theory? And is that time sink worth centuries of abuse and suffering?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Elves. Worst quality combinations between a victim who doesn't help themselves and a snobbish superiority complex.

They should get laser eyes for absolutely no reason.

[Pasquale1234]

@Faerunner -  I am well aware that the brief list of advantages I posted are a result of not only inherent racial traits but also the cultures and nations they have constructed.  Obviously, Tal-vashoth would not have all of the characteristics I listed for Qunari.

If you have any evidence that DA elves have any unique advantageous racial traits, please share.  I don't recall seeing any in the game.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 21 janvier 2014 - 08:23 .

[xAmilli0n]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

They should get laser eyes for absolutely no reason.

No idea what is being discussed in this thread, but this works for me.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mirrman70 wrote...

are elves a separate race or species? cause that would be a very important distinction and would eliminate the idea of racism and replace it with species-ism which is harder to relate to seeing as we as real life humans have never dealt with an equally sentient species. as such the idea of to races that require the same resources to develop hate towards each other and seek the removal of the other is natural. at this point you have to consider that arguably the humans are the most numerous of the two and with the physical and magical abilities being for all intents and purposes being somewhat equal (with one holding some slight superiority of the other in some aspects) the humans are naturally favored to come out on top due to having higher populations and the advantage of crossbreeding producing more humans. thus if you look at it as two separate species the humans have the advantage and thus it is natural for humans to be the dominant of the two.

Ah a very Dwarnian train of thought and true enough.

The past if anything proved the time of the elves had long since faded.

This is the time of Man.