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[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Maybe the elves should just find new land

If only if it were that easy....remember that the Dalish once tried to settle into Ostagar but the humans threw a hissy fit and a fight almost broke out.If the elves were to find new land then it would only be a matter of time until somebody decides to start something.

I like how you instantly blame the humans, based on how disappearingly little information we got on the situation.

Alistair and the ending slide stated that several humans were opposed to the Dalish living in Ostagar and tensions were high because of it.

And considering how most of Humanity views the Dalish as Bandits this is surprising to you how?

._. And besides objecting to it isn't the same as denying it but then again if they did illegally settle there i would be completely for booting them out. Them Tysping about wooded area's and backroads is one thing, Allowing them perment settlement is entirely another.

Again Alistair and Anora can grant the Dalish the lands so it was'nt illegal.

I recall no such agreement ever being struck and until it is.

It is completely valid to view at best an unwelcome and unwarrented intrusion and at worst an invasion.

In most kingdoms the King/Queen's decision is law.

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Is it logical for a nation's crimes to be blamed on its race?

Of course not.  But does that stop people from doing it?

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Maybe the elves should just find new land

If only if it were that easy....remember that the Dalish once tried to settle into Ostagar but the humans threw a hissy fit and a fight almost broke out.If the elves were to find new land then it would only be a matter of time until somebody decides to start something.

I like how you instantly blame the humans, based on how disappearingly little information we got on the situation.

Alistair and the ending slide stated that several humans were opposed to the Dalish living in Ostagar and tensions were high because of it.

And considering how most of Humanity views the Dalish as Bandits this is surprising to you how?

._. And besides objecting to it isn't the same as denying it but then again if they did illegally settle there i would be completely for booting them out. Them Tysping about wooded area's and backroads is one thing, Allowing them perment settlement is entirely another.

Again Alistair and Anora can grant the Dalish the lands so it was'nt illegal.

I recall no such agreement ever being struck and until it is.

It is completely valid to view at best an unwelcome and unwarrented intrusion and at worst an invasion.

In most kingdoms the King/Queen's decision is law.

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done.

But at that point there was no official ruler and so you had no choice but to get the nobles on your side.I'm pretty sure there were nobles who opposed Cailan's decision to make a alliance with Orlais but there was likely nothing they could do about it because he was king.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done. 

Are you suggesting that the royal boon (provided in the US Ending or when the Hero of Ferelden asks for land for his people) was renounced, making the entire point of the Dalish royal boon utterly pointless?

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Maybe the elves should just find new land

If only if it were that easy....remember that the Dalish once tried to settle into Ostagar but the humans threw a hissy fit and a fight almost broke out.If the elves were to find new land then it would only be a matter of time until somebody decides to start something.

I like how you instantly blame the humans, based on how disappearingly little information we got on the situation.

Alistair and the ending slide stated that several humans were opposed to the Dalish living in Ostagar and tensions were high because of it.

And considering how most of Humanity views the Dalish as Bandits this is surprising to you how?

._. And besides objecting to it isn't the same as denying it but then again if they did illegally settle there i would be completely for booting them out. Them Tysping about wooded area's and backroads is one thing, Allowing them perment settlement is entirely another.

Again Alistair and Anora can grant the Dalish the lands so it was'nt illegal.

I recall no such agreement ever being struck and until it is.

It is completely valid to view at best an unwelcome and unwarrented intrusion and at worst an invasion.

In most kingdoms the King/Queen's decision is law.

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done.

But at that point there was no official ruler and so you had no choice but to get the nobles on your side.I'm pretty sure there were nobles who opposed Cailan's decision to make a alliance with Orlais but there was likely nothing they could do about it because he was king.

Uh...Are you serious?

That was such a closely regarded matter espeically regarding how "Close" Calian wanted that alliance to be that even his highest ranking General was barely aware there was a "alliance" if you want to call accepting aid from the Empire that conquered your people just thirty years before hand an alliance anyway.

If word had gotten out around that, erm espeically considering MUCH of the nobility of the Nation was built on the back of Marcic's revolution...You would have had civil war in the country before the week was out had people gotten wind of how he was planning to sell his country out to Orlais just so he could strut about in a robe and call himself an Emperor.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done. 

Are you suggesting that the royal boon (provided in the US Ending or when the Hero of Ferelden asks for land for his people) was renounced, making the entire point of the Dalish royal boon utterly pointless?

I am stating it can VERY likely occur if it doesn't suit the Noblity to follow the king in this case.

This isn't like the Imperium or Qunari Lands where if you don't agree with a directive you are beheaded on the spot.

So it really wouldn't surprise me if it was if the Nobility got into too much of a stink over it.

I can just picture Alistair just looking at the elven warden trying to explain why he has to sort of cancel that placement deal on the Reservations.

Very Humorous scene.

[cjones91]

[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]AresKeith wrote...

Maybe the elves should just find new land [/quote]If only if it were that easy....remember that the Dalish once tried to settle into Ostagar but the humans threw a hissy fit and a fight almost broke out.If the elves were to find new land then it would only be a matter of time until somebody decides to start something.
[/quote]
I like how you instantly blame the humans, based on how disappearingly little information we got on the situation.

[/quote]Alistair and the ending slide stated that several humans were opposed to the Dalish living in Ostagar and tensions were high because of it.
[/quote]

And considering how most of Humanity views the Dalish as Bandits this is surprising to you how?

._. And besides objecting to it isn't the same as denying it but then again if they did illegally settle there i would be completely for booting them out. Them Tysping about wooded area's and backroads is one thing, Allowing them perment settlement is entirely another.



[/quote]Again Alistair and Anora can grant the Dalish the lands so it was'nt illegal.
[/quote]

I recall no such agreement ever being struck and until it is.

It is completely valid to view at best an unwelcome and unwarrented intrusion and at worst an invasion.



[/quote]In most kingdoms the King/Queen's decision is law.
[/quote]

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done.



[/quote]But at that point there was no official ruler and so you had no choice but to get the nobles on your side.I'm pretty sure there were nobles who opposed Cailan's decision to make a alliance with Orlais but there was likely nothing they could do about it because he was king.
[/quote]

Uh...Are you serious?

That was such a closely regarded matter espeically regarding how "Close" Calian wanted that alliance to be that even his highest ranking General was barely aware there was a "alliance" if you want to call accepting aid from the Empire that conquered your people just thirty years before hand an alliance anyway.

If word had gotten out around that, erm espeically considering MUCH of the nobility of the Nation was built on the back of Marcic's revolution...You would have had civil war in the country before the week was out had people gotten wind of how he was planning to sell his country out to Orlais just so he could strut about in a robe and call himself an Emperor.



[/quote]My point is unless they have evidence that the king/queen is acting against the people then the nobles can't just decide to kick them out on a whim.For example unless you have enough proof of Loghain's actions then you can lose the Landsmeet due to the nobles not believing you.It would be extremely difficult if the ruler is popular with both the common folk and the nobles such as Anora and Alistair because who is going to make a case of their removal because they gave some land away?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

[Hellion Rex]

@cjones91: Maybe cut down the ridiculous quote pyramid?

Modifié par eluvianix, 21 janvier 2014 - 11:11 .

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you suggesting that the royal boon (provided in the US Ending or when the Hero of Ferelden asks for land for his people) was renounced, making the entire point of the Dalish royal boon utterly pointless? 

I am stating it can VERY likely occur if it doesn't suit the Noblity to follow the king in this case.

This isn't like the Imperium or Qunari Lands where if you don't agree with a directive you are beheaded on the spot.

So it really wouldn't surprise me if it was if the Nobility got into too much of a stink over it.

I can just picture Alistair just looking at the elven warden trying to explain why he has to sort of cancel that placement deal on the Reservations.

Very Humorous scene. 

Which would effectively make the Dalish Warden's boon pointless. I just don't see the purpose in stabbing the Hero of Ferelden in the back.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

But who owns the lands containing Ostagar?The only people who live there are several tribes and Chasind.

Modifié par cjones91, 21 janvier 2014 - 11:13 .

[cjones91]

eluvianix wrote...

@cjones91: Maybe cut down the ridiculous quote pyramid?

Sorry,I got carried away.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

My point exactly; Sure the Land isn't exactly "Valuable" in the sense that is connected to trade routes and what have you but it is still settled human lands ruled over by Humans and handing that over to elves merely at the behest of their King would surely be a cause for at least minor upheavel within the Bannorn considering you would need to placate them likely with Lands taken from another Noble.

It's just too much of a bother for the King to go through with it, even Alistair if he wanted to keep his position and the nation united.

o-o Now placing the elves on an island out in the waking sea no one gave a crap about, I could see that working but lands already under a Human Lords control? No.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you suggesting that the royal boon (provided in the US Ending or when the Hero of Ferelden asks for land for his people) was renounced, making the entire point of the Dalish royal boon utterly pointless? 

I am stating it can VERY likely occur if it doesn't suit the Noblity to follow the king in this case.

This isn't like the Imperium or Qunari Lands where if you don't agree with a directive you are beheaded on the spot.

So it really wouldn't surprise me if it was if the Nobility got into too much of a stink over it.

I can just picture Alistair just looking at the elven warden trying to explain why he has to sort of cancel that placement deal on the Reservations.

Very Humorous scene. 

Which would effectively make the Dalish Warden's boon pointless. I just don't see the purpose in stabbing the Hero of Ferelden in the back.

It's not really a Betayal if your hands are bound in the matter to keep the Nation united.

But that said its merely my perspective on the outcome of said boon.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

But who owns the lands containing Ostagar?The only people who live there are several tribes and Chasind.

It is part of Ferelden, so it probably belong to some Arl or Bann, even though they are uinhabited. So it is not the King's to give away. The king can certainly order the noble(s) who owned the land to gift it to the Dalish, but the nobles would be free to deny. That would probably lead to nobles loyal to the King decending upon the nobles hwoever. However, even though they indirectly had to give the land up, the nobles certainly won't liek it, which would give rise to tensions.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

The King and Queen (alone or together) gives land to the Grey Wardens. It's not as though bestowing land to a group is without precedent. And do you think Arl Eamon and his supporters would stand against the King and Queen for giving the Dalish the Hinterlands? Because Eamon was the only serious contender against Loghain, who can become an ally and Warden towards the conclusion of the Fifth Blight.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

But who owns the lands containing Ostagar?The only people who live there are several tribes and Chasind.

There are Human settlements on the borders and within the Wilds and at least one "Lord" to be confirmed (The one who ruled over Lothering) So it would be likely that the entire province was deeded to at least one noble line.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

The King and Queen (alone or together) gives land to the Grey Wardens. It's not as though bestowing land to a group is without precedent. And do you think Arl Eamon and his supporters would stand against the King and Queen for giving the Dalish the Hinterlands? Because Eamon was the only serious contender against Loghain, who can become an ally and Warden towards the conclusion of the Fifth Blight.

Ahem are you comparing the Warden's who were deeded Lands coming fresh out of a blight to the universial Piriah of Thedas?

I really don't see the situations are as Comparable.

And Eamon is a popular man tis true but he and his faction of Royalists are hardly the only Nobles within the Land.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

But who owns the lands containing Ostagar?The only people who live there are several tribes and Chasind.

There are Human settlements on the borders and within the Wilds and at least one "Lord" to be confirmed (The one who ruled over Lothering) So it would be likely that the entire province was deeded to at least one noble line.

Even the Korcari Wilds and the area surrounding it?I find it hard to believe that all of that land is under a noble's control considering all of the tribes living there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

The King and Queen (alone or together) gives land to the Grey Wardens. It's not as though bestowing land to a group is without precedent. And do you think Arl Eamon and his supporters would stand against the King and Queen for giving the Dalish the Hinterlands? Because Eamon was the only serious contender against Loghain, who can become an ally and Warden towards the conclusion of the Fifth Blight.

They bestow land which had recently become ownerless, both Amaranthine and Gwaren, so those two areas would befall the king, and thus they would be the king's to give away.
And yes, Eamon's supporters would definitely disapparove of the king favoring Elves. And Eamon was the only serious contender who were at least relatively clsoely related to the Guerrin bloodline. ANY noble who can amass enough power in Ferelden can be crowned king. And a king who favors Elves and gives very little back to the nobles, as a matter of fact the nobles in question probably only lost in this deal, will certainly start give a little less support to the king than they did before.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which would effectively make the Dalish Warden's boon pointless. I just don't see the purpose in stabbing the Hero of Ferelden in the back.

It's not really a Betayal if your hands are bound in the matter to keep the Nation united.

But that said its merely my perspective on the outcome of said boon. 

I think it's a betrayal when, after all the sacrifices and risks the Dalish Warden took to end the Fifth Blight, his royal boon to give his people a home was simply dismissed.

Regardless, Kirby said Ashalle stayed in Ferelden to manage the Hinterlands (re: Dalish Boon).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 janvier 2014 - 11:26 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Is it logical for a nation's crimes to be blamed on its race?

Of course not.  But does that stop people from doing it?

Certainly doesn't stop the dalish from doing it either. What with their "Humans took our homeland" "Humans enslaved us" instead of orlais took our homeland or tevinter enslaved us.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Apparently you forgot this little bit about the Nation.

The Bannorn, Arls, and Nobles have the majority of power and that's why the King of Fereldan more oft then not has had to placate and assure them of their own interests during their history.

Its sort of the whole point of the Landsmeet and what have you, you know to get the Nobility on your side so you can get **** done. 

Are you suggesting that the royal boon (provided in the US Ending or when the Hero of Ferelden asks for land for his people) was renounced, making the entire point of the Dalish royal boon utterly pointless?

Mage circle boon says hi.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is NOT an absolute monarchy, so the King's word isn't law. The individual nobles rule their lands. The Ferelden king needs the support of the nobles, otherwise his rulership falls apart, and a new king will be elected by the Landsmeet. The king giving away land of lesser nobles is bound to upset some nobles, which would ripple out to affect the Elves too.

But who owns the lands containing Ostagar?The only people who live there are several tribes and Chasind.

There are Human settlements on the borders and within the Wilds and at least one "Lord" to be confirmed (The one who ruled over Lothering) So it would be likely that the entire province was deeded to at least one noble line.

Even the Korcari Wilds and the area surrounding it?I find it hard to believe that all of that land is under a noble's control considering all of the tribes living there.

The Korcari Wilds are the territory of the Chasind, and I am sure that they were just GIDDY that some foreign king decided that their territory was his to give away. But the area surrounding Ostagar is a part of Ferelden, so this particualr part would belong to a noble. So as you can see, there are lots of reasons for why humans wouldn't lvoe what the king thought he could get away with.

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Is it logical for a nation's crimes to be blamed on its race?

Of course not.  But does that stop people from doing it?

Certainly doesn't stop the dalish from doing it either. What with their "Humans took our homeland" "Humans enslaved us" instead of orlais took our homeland or tevinter enslaved us.

Everybody blames everyone for past mistakes,people blame mages for damn near everything even the things they did'nt do,dwarves blame the surfacers for not helping them enough against the Darkspawn,etc;.