1258 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Lobsel isn't saying that the elves and the Dalish do no wrong, he's saying that he personally doesn't see them and their current situation as entirely their fault.

That's not what he's saying, and has often come out in favour of ethnic cleasining as being justified because of their past (Edit: though, to be fair, not in this thread; just in other ones). His position goes far beyond exculpating the Dalish, and actually involves giving them a carte blanche for future wrongs on the basis of past wrongs suffered. 

For example, his position here is that the Dalish can't be blamed for not helping Orlais during the blight and, as a result, allowing people to be raped, massacred and stolen away by the darkspawn, because of historical racial hatred. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 05:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are talking crazy Jimmy. The Dalish cannot do anything wrong. And if they did do something wrong, then it can't possibly be their fault, but it would obviously be the ones who conspired against them's fault. Which would be everybody else of course,

I don't recall anyone excusing the Sabrae clan for attempting to murder Hawke and his moiety crew in cold blood, or Marethari letting Audacity free, or Zathrian letting his revenge inflict harm on his clan and the descendants of the humans who had murdered his son and raped his daughter - as they aren't guilty for the actions of their progenitors. I don't think anyone who thinks the elves have gotten a bad hand in life thinks that elves should be excused for any malevolent or harmful actions they commit; it's simply that some of us think that Dalish society shouldn't be vilified for it's culture of free mages and following a religion that is prohibited by Chantry law.

You have previously advocated the ethnic cleansing of all humans in the Dales, so that the Elves could resettle in the Dales. Somehow what you say now, doesn't really seem like it is true.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I doubt that the Dalish would do to Orlais what Orlais did to the Dales because of one very important part of Dalish society.

They are total isolationists. They believe that the longer they stay apart from humans, the closer they can get to their lost 'immortality.' They have no need for human servants.

And it was the Chantry that declared all elves had to live in alienages after the war was over, so I also don't think the Dalish would declare, or their religion would declare that all humans should live in alienages.

Nah, they woud just exterminate every last human in their lands...

[The Elder King]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I doubt that the Dalish would do to Orlais what Orlais did to the Dales because of one very important part of Dalish society.

They are total isolationists. They believe that the longer they stay apart from humans, the closer they can get to their lost 'immortality.' They have no need for human servants.

And it was the Chantry that declared all elves had to live in alienages after the war was over, so I also don't think the Dalish would declare, or their religion would declare that all humans should live in alienages.

I said that they'd do something similar, not the same thing. I doubt they'd have left Orlais simply defeated and in a state where it could get revenge later. 
I meant to say that the Chantry declared it, not Orlais. I didn't see that I wrote Orlais in certain parts.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lobsel isn't saying that the elves and the Dalish do no wrong, he's saying that he personally doesn't see them and their current situation as entirely their fault.

That's not what he's saying, and has often come out in favour of ethnic cleasining as being justified because of their past (Edit: though, to be fair, not in this thread; just in other ones). His position goes far beyond exculpating the Dalish, and actually involves giving them a carte blanche for future wrongs on the basis of past wrongs suffered.

I didn't advocate murdering innocent men, women, and children. However, I've supported the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire with the Dalish Inquisitor.

In Exile wrote...

For example, his position here is that the Dalish can't be blamed for not helping Orlais during the blight and, as a result, allowing people to be raped, massacred and stolen away by the darkspawn, because of historical racial hatred.  

Actually, I pointed out that the Dales had valid reasons to be wary of Orlais when the elven kingdom had free mages and the elves believed in the elven pantheon of the Creators.

However, I also gave credit to the dwarves (and not the humans or the elves) as the only ones who took the darkspawn threat seriously, since the dwarves are the only ones who are taking on the darkspawn every day.

[dragonflight288]

I have read most of the pages on this, and I don't recall him saying that specifically. You have a link or a page number from this thread? I recall him saying that the Dalish likely had reason to be wary of helping Orlais because Orlais is an expansionist empire and had been from the very beginning of its inception, and the Chantry alongside it.

The codex "history of the Chantry" throughout all of them make it clear that Drakon I used the Chantry to Exalted March everyone else to establish an empire soley to spread the Maker's word. They believe that for the Maker to return, the chant of light must be sung from all corners of the world, and had shown to be willing to force other people to accept their interpretation of the Chant, when they were really only one of many Andrastian cults (Gaider confirms this)

As for the letting rape and massacring by darkspawn go on, and condemning elves for not aiding Orlais, I won't say anything for or against. But I will say this. If the surface nations have such a problem with it, why don't they help the dwarves as they suffer it every single day. The surfaces blight is the dwarves daily life. If people don't want to help the dwarves, why should they complain if people don't want to help them with the exact same problem?

I'm all for ending a blight, but a blight is also the time when dwarves have the easiest time. The codex on the dwarves burdens make it clear that the dwarves actually use blights as a time to retake ground as it's the only time they can. That's when the Deep Roads have the least amount of darkspawn.


The codex entry "Stalata Negat" makes it clear that the dwarves are suffering big time.

http://dragonage.wik...:_Stalata_Negat

I'm all for ending a blight, but my opinion is pretty simple, and it isn't racist at all. If one group complains about being left high and dry during a blight, where are they for the dwarves when it isn't a blight?

I'm not saying I support the elves not aiding Orlais, but I haven't seen Orlais ever bother to help Orzammar even though what Orzammar suffers is probably ten times worse than what they did.

[dragonflight288]

Huh, Lobsel and I posted around the same time, although I got into more depth for the dwarves.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I didn't advocate murdering innocent men, women, and children. However, I've supported the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire with the Dalish Inquisitor.

Do you want to rehash what it means to forcibly relocate an entire population and the kind of ethnic cleasing that involves? Because - and this is probably your view at the most ironic and hypocritical - it would be a literal repeat of the what Orlais did not the Dales. 

You advocated their murder, rape and the destruction of their families and livelihood. You openly believe it's just. At least have the good grace to own up to it. 

Actually, I pointed out that the Dales had valid reasons to be wary of Orlais when the elven kingdom had free mages and the elves believed in the elven pantheon of the Creators.  

No, you went further than that. You implied that it was acceptable for them not to have become involved because they had reason to fear Orlais. You endorsed their choice. You endorsed their leaving people to die. 

Just repeating these charitable - and in the context of your past posts - outright dishonest and misleading characterizations of what you said doesn't change what you were actually getting at. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 05:25 .

[dragonflight288]

Do you want to rehash what it means to forcibly relocate an entire population and the kind of ethnic cleasing that involves? Because - and this is probably your view at the most ironic and hypocritical - it would be a literal repeat of the what Orlais did not the Dales.

The Dales are already being abandoned en masse at the end of Asunder as a result of the Orlesian civil war. They aren't there anymore, and it's not a result of the elves. It's other humans.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall anyone excusing the Sabrae clan for attempting to murder Hawke and his moiety crew in cold blood, or Marethari letting Audacity free, or Zathrian letting his revenge inflict harm on his clan and the descendants of the humans who had murdered his son and raped his daughter - as they aren't guilty for the actions of their progenitors. I don't think anyone who thinks the elves have gotten a bad hand in life thinks that elves should be excused for any malevolent or harmful actions they commit; it's simply that some of us think that Dalish society shouldn't be vilified for it's culture of free mages and following a religion that is prohibited by Chantry law.

You have previously advocated the ethnic cleansing of all humans in the Dales, so that the Elves could resettle in the Dales. Somehow what you say now, doesn't really seem like it is true. 

I never advocated committing genocide against all humans in the Dales; as I've said multiple times, I don't think civilians have to be killed for the Dalish to remove the Orlesians from power in the Dales.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dales are already being abandoned en masse at the end of Asunder as a result of the Orlesian civil war. They aren't there anymore, and it's not a result of the elves. It's other humans.

That's irrelevant. His position on this was assuming the Dales were fully populated by humans.

For me, it certainly changes the moral calculus of the situation if it's currently unpopulated (because the original residents are already displaced), and so the only harm is the loss of their homes and a lifetime of being refugees.  

[dragonflight288]

especially since the civilians have already left the dales and it had nothing to do with the elves. There's next to nothing stopping the elves from simply moving in and taking it. Humans don't live there anymore.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall anyone excusing the Sabrae clan for attempting to murder Hawke and his moiety crew in cold blood, or Marethari letting Audacity free, or Zathrian letting his revenge inflict harm on his clan and the descendants of the humans who had murdered his son and raped his daughter - as they aren't guilty for the actions of their progenitors. I don't think anyone who thinks the elves have gotten a bad hand in life thinks that elves should be excused for any malevolent or harmful actions they commit; it's simply that some of us think that Dalish society shouldn't be vilified for it's culture of free mages and following a religion that is prohibited by Chantry law.

You have previously advocated the ethnic cleansing of all humans in the Dales, so that the Elves could resettle in the Dales. Somehow what you say now, doesn't really seem like it is true. 

I never advocated committing genocide against all humans in the Dales; as I've said multiple times, I don't think civilians have to be killed for the Dalish to remove the Orlesians from power in the Dales.

Ah, so the Dalish would accept any and all humans who chose to remain in the area their family have lived for centuries?

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dales are already being abandoned en masse at the end of Asunder as a result of the Orlesian civil war. They aren't there anymore, and it's not a result of the elves. It's other humans.

That's irrelevant. His position on this was assuming the Dales were fully populated by humans.

For me, it certainly changes the moral calculus of the situation if it's currently unpopulated (because the original residents are already displaced), and so the only harm is the loss of their homes and a lifetime of being refugees.  

They aren't all dispalced, but there are refugees as a result of the civil war. Obviosuly these refugees will return to their homes once things has settled down.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dales are already being abandoned en masse at the end of Asunder as a result of the Orlesian civil war. They aren't there anymore, and it's not a result of the elves. It's other humans.

That's irrelevant. His position on this was assuming the Dales were fully populated by humans.

For me, it certainly changes the moral calculus of the situation if it's currently unpopulated (because the original residents are already displaced), and so the only harm is the loss of their homes and a lifetime of being refugees.  

You are ignoring what he's saying in full. He wants to give the Dales back to the elves, and he doesn't believe ethnic cleansing or mass slaughter needs to be involved. Add in that the Dales have already been abandoned and it's perfectly possible for the elves to reclaim it humanely. 

There's no issue here at all. I think you guys formed an opinion about what he's saying or misread one of his earlier posts, and simply don't see or hear what he's actually saying. 

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They aren't all dispalced, but there are refugees as a result of the civil war. Obviosuly these refugees will return to their homes once things has settled down.

I'm not endorsing opportunistically stealing away people's homes and condeming them to a lifetime of being refugees and second-class citizens. I'm just saying that there's a difference between that and perpetrating ethnic cleansing. 

Edit: 

Orlais may well suffer losses on such a scale that there's plenty of room elsewhere. Having a homeland for the CEs - where the Dalish can live if they allow the CEs their own self-determination - is not necessarily a bad outcome. 

The elves were historical victims, and the blessed majority is going to have to suffer for them to get substantive equality. It's just a question of how much suffering is justified to create a better future for groups now, without it either becoming vindication or just unconscionable treatment. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 05:42 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dales are already being abandoned en masse at the end of Asunder as a result of the Orlesian civil war. They aren't there anymore, and it's not a result of the elves. It's other humans.

That's irrelevant. His position on this was assuming the Dales were fully populated by humans.

For me, it certainly changes the moral calculus of the situation if it's currently unpopulated (because the original residents are already displaced), and so the only harm is the loss of their homes and a lifetime of being refugees.  

They aren't all dispalced, but there are refugees as a result of the civil war. Obviosuly these refugees will return to their homes once things has settled down.

If they aren't conscripted by Celene or Gaspard like we hear in the rumors in Origins regarding the Ferelden Civil War. (Dragon's Keep and Loghain both were grabbing men out on the streets and forced them to fight, and they fought against each other.)

Or if their village isn't destroyed by Red Templars....or bandits.....or rogue blood mages.....

But historically, most refugees never return home. Some do, but most don't. 

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
You are ignoring what he's saying in full. He wants to give the Dales back to the elves, and he doesn't believe ethnic cleansing or mass slaughter needs to be involved.  

That's just double-talk. IRL, the KKK thinks they can non-violently relocate all minority groups back to their "home countries", but no one pretends like these loons are right. 

History is unequivocal that forcible relocation is (a) a crime against humanity of the highest order; ( involves death and rape and violation on a scale that's unheard elsewhere; and © that pretending it like it is OK just means you're endorsing war crimes. 

There's no issue here at all. I think you guys formed an opinion about what he's saying or misread one of his earlier posts, and simply don't see or hear what he's actually saying.  

Let me try and spell this out for you. Suppose I say that I don't support torturing prisoners. Then I say that I think we should castrate every single male prisoner we have, because castration isn't torture since we can do it painlessly. Then, I suppose we replay the castration for them 24/7. 

Does that mean I'm not pro-torture? Does my subjective characterization of the suffering I'm inflicting actually mean anything?

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 05:43 .

[Hellion Rex]

Can't we all just be friends and sing Kumbaya?

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...

Can't we all just be friends and sing Kumbaya?

No.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Can't we all just be friends and sing Kumbaya?

Sure. We can invite Wednesday and Pugsley Addams to join us at Camp Chippewa. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dales are already being abandoned en masse at the end of Asunder as a result of the Orlesian civil war. They aren't there anymore, and it's not a result of the elves. It's other humans.

That's irrelevant. His position on this was assuming the Dales were fully populated by humans.

For me, it certainly changes the moral calculus of the situation if it's currently unpopulated (because the original residents are already displaced), and so the only harm is the loss of their homes and a lifetime of being refugees.  

They aren't all dispalced, but there are refugees as a result of the civil war. Obviosuly these refugees will return to their homes once things has settled down.

If they aren't conscripted by Celene or Gaspard like we hear in the rumors in Origins regarding the Ferelden Civil War. (Dragon's Keep and Loghain both were grabbing men out on the streets and forced them to fight, and they fought against each other.)

Or if their village isn't destroyed by Red Templars....or bandits.....or rogue blood mages.....

But historically, most refugees never return home. Some do, but most don't. 

Conscripts would undoubtably return home, since they would still have farms that needed tending to.

And until we have some additional info on Red Templars, and the situation in the Dales in general, then I would say we MIGHT want to postpone the handing it over to Elves and leaving the inhabitants there to genocide.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:02 .

[The Elder King]

I have two questions for everyone. What alliance/compromise do you believe is more likely to be a choice in DAI, elves-humans (meaning dalish/CE with one of the contender for the Orlesian throne) or mages-templars? 
And do you think that in The Masked Empire/DAI it could happen that CE and dalish fight against each other, by allying with Gaspard and Celene?

Modifié par hhh89, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:04 .

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Can't we all just be friends and sing Kumbaya?

Sure. We can invite Wednesday and Pugsley Addams to join us at Camp Chippewa. 

With a reenactment of the Arlathan elves and the Tevinter humans meeting each other and celebrating the first Thanksgiving meal? :innocent:

[In Exile]

hhh89 wrote...

I have a question for everyone. What alliance/compromise do you believe is more likely to be a choice in DAI, elves-humans or mages-templars?

Technically elves-humans exists, at least sort of between Gaspard and the CEs.